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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, Science and Math teachers should make more. The salaries should be based on what the particular skill set could earn in Private Industry.
    So you want Private Industry and "free market" to dictate what topics our kids are taught? That's basically what you're saying.. A dangerous slope if you ask me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    That is because birds of a feather flock together.
    Then why are you posting on a firefighter's website????
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    It is amazing that all of your friends are hard workers and everyone else are slackers. How about less anecdotal examples and a few more hard facts.
    More than likely, it is his friends who are the slackers projecting their behavior onto the hard workers.

    Like he stated, winged bipeds of identical plummage, tend to congregate.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    So you want Private Industry and "free market" to dictate what topics our kids are taught? That's basically what you're saying.. A dangerous slope if you ask me.
    Actually, not that far off. We are supposed to be preparing the youth of this country so they can be productive citizens of the society. That means getting jobs in private industry. What use is it to learn a foreign language if there are no jobs needing foreign languages.

    I've seen many a college grad looking back and saying they wasted 4 years of their life because they got a liberal learning degree, or an art degree, or a music degree. In fact, my brother has a degree in music. The only place he can apply this degree is teaching. He doesn't want to be a teacher. So he has a practically useless degree.

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    I've always thought that we shouldn't elect lawyers to Congress to be law makers.
    If we shouldn't have people who have worked in the oil industry be industry regulators because they might work to the benefit of the "Ol' Boys' Club",why wouldn't we think that of lawyers whose biggest ambition is to make laws and figure out ways that they don't have to live by those laws like the citizenry does?Can you say"Conflict of interest" ?I know you can.
    Why NOT send to represent us people who have to worry that their next paycheck won't cover this week's bills and understand that their actions DO affect others even if they don't intend them to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, not that far off. We are supposed to be preparing the youth of this country so they can be productive citizens of the society. That means getting jobs in private industry. What use is it to learn a foreign language if there are no jobs needing foreign languages.

    I've seen many a college grad looking back and saying they wasted 4 years of their life because they got a liberal learning degree, or an art degree, or a music degree. In fact, my brother has a degree in music. The only place he can apply this degree is teaching. He doesn't want to be a teacher. So he has a practically useless degree.
    There is a huge difference between basing the curriculum on what is applicable in today's world and having it dictated by private industry. Having industry (or governments.. or religions) control the educational system gives them way too much power.. Given their various agendas it would be a very BadThing.

    And just because something cannot be done as a profession does not mean that the topic is not applicable in today's world. To use your example: Should we not teach Music in schools just because your brother was unable to get a job in that field? The goal of schools should not be to produce one-topic automatons.. it is to produce smart, well rounded kids who can think for themselves and apply ALL of the knowledge.

    BTW: my roommate in college was a music/physics double major. He was able to apply both and get a very (very very) nice job.

    and WTF does ANY of this have to do with the original topic?
    Last edited by voyager9; 07-07-2010 at 04:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Why NOT send to represent us people who have to worry that their next paycheck won't cover this week's bills and understand that their actions DO affect others even if they don't intend them to?
    When reading McCullough's book on John Adams I was reminded that the government used to shut down during harvest season (now called "Fall Recess"). When his term was over he went back to being a farmer.

    I think we would all be better off if the quest for political office did not end up like a self fulfilling prophecy. If these guys had to go back to the Real World I think they would be much more grounded.
    So you call this your free country
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    I've seen many a college grad looking back and saying they wasted 4 years of their life because they got a liberal learning degree, or an art degree, or a music degree. In fact, my brother has a degree in music. The only place he can apply this degree is teaching. He doesn't want to be a teacher. So he has a practically useless degree.
    Apparently the apples didn't fall too far apart.

    I know a music major who is the lead computer programmer for a local aerospace company.

    Don't know how he ended up there.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I think we would all be better off if the quest for political office did not end up like a self fulfilling prophecy. If these guys had to go back to the Real World I think they would be much more grounded.
    Might have been a good idea back then. The US wasn't the superpower it is today. The US is now a multi trillion dollar a year entity.

    As far as politicos going back to the real world. Many of them came from the so called "real world" and were quite good at what enabled them to run for public office.

    Fully half of congress reports personal assets in excess of a million dollars. One (Issa (R-CA)) is worth $500M. Many are worth eight and nine digit sums. Acquired before they ran for office.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Apparently the apples didn't fall too far apart.

    I know a music major who is the lead computer programmer for a local aerospace company.

    Don't know how he ended up there.
    Funny you mention that. I knew a fellow in High School had a perfect SAT score. He studied classical guitar.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Funny you mention that. I knew a fellow in High School had a perfect SAT score. He studied classical guitar.
    I'd be interested in knowing how many college grads are earning a living in their field of study.

    I'd be surprised if it's even half.

    When I retired we had hired numerous college grads. Few if any had studied fire science.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acklan View Post
    You find this excessive, for a 4 to 6 year degree with professional certifications?



    Link please, or are these just more numbers you have pulled from thin air?
    Thin air? more than likely out of his anal orifice....
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Comes from personal observation as well as discussions with other governmental workers. I have a friend who works at DSS.
    Your caseworker?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    Actually, not that far off. We are supposed to be preparing the youth of this country so they can be productive citizens of the society. That means getting jobs in private industry. What use is it to learn a foreign language if there are no jobs needing foreign languages.
    God you are dumb. Do you think that the entire planet has English as their first language? It's a GLOBAL ECONOMY!

    I've seen many a college grad looking back and saying they wasted 4 years of their life because they got a liberal learning degree, or an art degree, or a music degree. In fact, my brother has a degree in music. The only place he can apply this degree is teaching. He doesn't want to be a teacher. So he has a practically useless degree.
    I also know of people with degrees in the sciences that became disillusioned with the corporate rat race and are happy working in their own businesses... far removed from the computer room, laboratory and the corporate offices...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    In fact, my brother has a degree in music. The only place he can apply this degree is teaching. He doesn't want to be a teacher. So he has a practically useless degree.
    So why did he major in music?

    Did he research his degree and see what the average salary for a music major is? Did he do research to see what percentage of music majors find employment in their field after graduation, both nationally and from his school? Did he research the different fields of employment his degree would allow him to work?

    Or did he just like to play instruments and figure "Hey I'll major in music"?

    Why is it the fault of the college and the department of education that your brother picked a crappy major?
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Did he do research to see what percentage of music majors find employment in their field after graduation, both nationally and from his school? Did he research the different fields of employment his degree would allow him to work?
    He performed the same bullet-proof financial analysis that Crow does with every post.

    If his brother is as bad at music as Crow is with Logic and Math then it's no wonder...
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Might have been a good idea back then. The US wasn't the superpower it is today. The US is now a multi trillion dollar a year entity.
    True.. but there is some merit to the idea of term limits... even if they are 4/6/8/10 year time frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Fully half of congress reports personal assets in excess of a million dollars. One (Issa (R-CA)) is worth $500M. Many are worth eight and nine digit sums. Acquired before they ran for office.
    I think their definition of "real world" is much different from mine (and probably most other Americans).
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    True.. but there is some merit to the idea of term limits... even if they are 4/6/8/10 year time frame.
    I don't agree that term limits should be mandated. As a voter I have the capability of enacting term limits. It's called voting.

    If I believe my elected official is doing a good job, I should be able to vote for them. Regardless of how long they've been in office.
    Last edited by scfire86; 07-07-2010 at 10:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    That is because birds of a feather flock together.
    You mean like lying, misrepresenting, fabrication,... you mean those feathers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    So why did he major in music?

    Did he research his degree and see what the average salary for a music major is? Did he do research to see what percentage of music majors find employment in their field after graduation, both nationally and from his school? Did he research the different fields of employment his degree would allow him to work?

    Or did he just like to play instruments and figure "Hey I'll major in music"?

    Why is it the fault of the college and the department of education that your brother picked a crappy major?
    He was young a naive like many that head off to college. The counselors tell you to learn something you like. I suspect like many graduating kids they have no idea what they are going to do, a few do. When I graduated I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I enlisted because it sounded like fun; it wasn't. Then after working a couple of blue collar jobs and a job on an assembly line I decided there was a better way. While I would have preferred being a professional lifeguard I realized there wasn't much future in it. So i went into electronics, then Electrical Engineering and now at over 50 years of age I am studying for a masters in Information Security.

    It isn't the fault of the college or dept of education directly. However, these businesses entice people to come to their schools and spend billions of dollars on educations that will never see the return on investment. How many PELL grants and state grants have gone to fund educations in areas that have resulted in the graduate getting a minimum wage job? While there may be a need for 100 people with music degrees the government will fund 10,000. If there is limited potential to use the degree there should also be limited funding for that degree type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Might have been a good idea back then. The US wasn't the superpower it is today. The US is now a multi trillion dollar a year entity.

    As far as politicos going back to the real world. Many of them came from the so called "real world" and were quite good at what enabled them to run for public office.

    Fully half of congress reports personal assets in excess of a million dollars. One (Issa (R-CA)) is worth $500M. Many are worth eight and nine digit sums. Acquired before they ran for office.
    And there is the problem!!! They have no idea what it is like to have to try to get by on $60,000 or less. Even at $80,000 a single person will have a tough time. Many have also forgotten what it is like to work 12 hour days, 6 days a week in a hot sweltering factory. Only to see the government gobble up half of their overtime pay.

    Myself I am currently at the position I would rather have more time off than more pay. A $10,000 pay raise results in 50% in my pocket. A day off means I get the whole day off and the government gets nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    While there may be a need for 100 people with music degrees the government will fund 10,000. If there is limited potential to use the degree there should also be limited funding for that degree type.
    I have to say that is boarder line sounding like socialism to me.

    I DO NOT HAVE A RESOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM. I AM SIMPLY STATING WHAT THAT SOUNDED LIKE TO ME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    He performed the same bullet-proof financial analysis that Crow does with every post.

    If his brother is as bad at music as Crow is with Logic and Math then it's no wonder...
    No financial analysis is bullet proof; but it is better than no analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    I have to say that is boarder line sounding like socialism to me.

    I DO NOT HAVE A RESOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM. I AM SIMPLY STATING WHAT THAT SOUNDED LIKE TO ME.
    Perhaps yes. I'm not sure what the answer is either. I just know that as a country we waste a lot of money on misdirected education. I recall seeing a year or so ago some girl who had gone to college for a job in the media. The best she could do was a position as a secretary paying minimum wage and she was complaining about having to pay back $30,000 in student loans. And trust me, there are hundreds of thousands just like her out there.

    In fact, while getting my BSEE I met a fellow who had a degree in history and was now getting his BSEE. He said history was great and fun, but no jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
    While there may be a need for 100 people with music degrees the government will fund 10,000.
    The Government did not fund 10,000 music degrees, the government funded 10,000 degrees that people (including your brother) choose to pursue.

    If the Government decided to only fund 100 music degrees you would be on here bitching about "The government has no right to control the private sector by creating artificial scarcity in the music industry by not funding degrees in music!!!!" while at the same time masturbating to the sound of your self righteous stupidity.

    I figured out the best way to sum up all your posts in a few simple summary points:

    1. Individuals can do everything better than the government.
    2. If that individual makes a stupid choice/mistake than it is the governments fault for letting him make that mistake.
    3. If the Government tries to prevent the individual from make that mistake it is socialism and must be stopped.
    4. Individuals can do everything better than the government.
    5. Insert infinite loop....
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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