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Thread: ISO's new FSRS

  1. #21
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    Looking at what would need to add for 100% on service co.

    Only missing a few items. One being a 14' extension ladder.

    Anything in ISO std that require ladders meet NFPA 1931? This being a "for ISO only purchase".


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Looking at what would need to add for 100% on service co.

    Only missing a few items. One being a 14' extension ladder.

    Anything in ISO std that require ladders meet NFPA 1931? This being a "for ISO only purchase".
    Well, I strongly urge you to consider the implications of using a non-complant NFPA1931 ladder if it is in use and someone gets injured due to failure.

    Having said that, I have seen some proctors that are strict on NFPA compliance on things like attack and supply hose; but never on Suction Hose, hand tools or ladders. I won't say it won't happen because I have probably only seen about 3 to 5% of the current proctors at work.

    You can use a 14' Combination Ladder for credit (about $600 for 5 points), and it may prove useful for attic access, or during overhaul operations.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  3. #23
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    Default ISO Slayer

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Looking at what would need to add for 100% on service co.

    Only missing a few items. One being a 14' extension ladder.

    Anything in ISO std that require ladders meet NFPA 1931? This being a "for ISO only purchase".
    In my experience I have assisted fire departments that received credit for a "Little Giant" Ladder. As of the last few ratings I have worked with, departments are no longer receiving credit for this ladder. I have seen the ISO internal paperwork that requires Field Representatives to no longer give credit for these ladders due to the fact that they do not have a label on them stating "Meets NFPA standards". So yes ground ladders are required to meet NFPA Standards... However, it is curious that they do NOT have to be tested as per NFPA standards... Only the aerial device must be tested....

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    Recently spoke with an ISO person and was told the new schedule would allow full flow of hydrant up to 1500 gpm for the full 1000' without having to have ldh hose. Was also told the new schedule would go into effect 4th Qtr. 2011

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    Default how many fire depts have an iso class1 rating in the usa

    In the city of Brockton mass we are an iso class2 fire dept with 6 stations 5 engine co's 3 ladder trucks 1heavy rescue eng. Sqaud A, 9 co's covering 21 sq.miles and95'000 people our main engine co(1)has been out of commission lack of manpower since 1991. we have about 150 ff's an browning out co's here's the question, to get to an iso class 1 dept we need 200 ff's on 10 trucks at 20 men per co. we have manpower for 7 1/2 co's 200 would give us the nfpa 1710 standards to staff 10 trucks,we were shot down on an over ride for 10 cops an 7 ff's it would have cost 25.00 for 17 follow me? 51 ff's would cost 75.00 tax increase ouch! but being an iso class 1 dept would have saved 100.00 on their home owners insurance. so we the fire service would have put 25.00 in their pockets by raising taxes! ever heard of raising taxes to save money? god for bid if we save lives or property!spend the other 25.00 and have a 4th ladder truck and we would break even! wow! we once had 16trucks in 7 stations and 260 ff's it could work in every community in america. cambridge has the only iso class1 dept in mass. 1 out of 351 communitys( 8 are class2)can we list the 30iso usa communitys so i can give it to the mayor, city councilors, state reps ,and senators, the gov ,and our elected officials in wash d.c every community should look at what they need for a class1 dept

  6. #26
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Thomas:

    I agree with your statement... to a point and I do feel your frustration.

    There is a good arguement for raising taxes if two things are accomplished:

    1) Staffing increases along with capability.

    2) Drastic Insurance reductions offset the tax increase.

    The public might go along with both goals... but as a Class 2, you're not going to catch the homeowners in a reduction at Class 1. You have already reduced 99% of what you can for them. But the business owners would see a reduction. Would it be enough to justify the tax... I don't know... You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the numbers.

    But in the current economic situation, elected officials are pushing tax increases to hold on to what they have, not fund anything new. The public's perception of City Hall is it is fat and needs to go on a diet. So you have a very hard sell my friend.

    To answer your question: According to the latest ISO data... there are 57 ISO PPC 1 Departments in the US.

    You need to continue to sell your points to the elected officals, but not necessarily to get to Class 1.... but to keep from losing Class 2. If insurance rates go up... lots of people will be looking for a job soon after. Check with the Insurance Providers in your area and query them concerning the affect on premiums on businesses if the Class went to 3. Then tell your bosses that bit of info. You might find it easier to gain what you need, unless they don't understand economic fallout.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    The point i was trying to get across was that only 1 fire dept in mass has an iso rating of class1 and my question was how many were at that goal in the usa you replied 57, there are 351 cities and towns in mass alone and 360 fire depts overall. people need to sell the lower rating towards a class1 vs the tax increase that will be needed.no other dept can offer some type of savings for a tax increase to its residents.we have the chance to use this to our atvantage throughout the usa,not every community needs the same amount of manpower, equipment,or fire houses etc.thats the point i was driving home take care of what you have now is correct an override or a debt exclusion allways comes with a cost but your local insurance company should be able to tell you what your savings would be if you went fom a 9to a5 or a 9to a1 every municipal dept wants more money but we can justify the cost.and if we cut depts with budget cuts it will cost them more through the fire dept. taxes will not decrease an your home and business insurance will increase. we should take a look on how big and small depts got to a class1!

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    I just helped complete a survey this week. I watched the proctor not give credit for equipment because it was not on the correct truck. I inquired about that and he reconsidered part of it. The issue was the department had a Wildland truck they classified as a Service. It did not carry ladders or SCBA, but their Engine Carried extra ladders and 10 SCBA. They did get the Service points for 2 SCBA, the fan, saw and tarps on the Engine.

    From my observation, it appears that some of these guys are confused and that there are currently no clear directives on some things. This has been an on-going issue.

    Because of what I will call inconsistancies, I advise depts to go as much by the book as possible. Until we see where the new system goes, there is no point in assuming anything. I have seen some excellent proctors, as well as a few that scare me.


    This is the part of both ISO, and it's cousin down here, LA Property Rating that just plain pi@@es me off.

    Departments are often building their trucks around what the rating requires, not what the district requires. This is especially true in less well off departments that spend what they have on buying for the rating and don't have the funds left over to buy the tools and equipment that they actually need to operate in the district. And if they they do, it has to be crammed into the truck because of all the space taken up by the ISO crap that you will never use.

    By the book, my combo department is required to carry 64 SCBA and 64 spare bottles. That's nonsense. It's the same with the hose jacket, hose clamp and all the other crap required that we don't use and never will.

    I could continue on this rant, but I'll end here.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    By the book, my combo department is required to carry 64 SCBA and 64 spare bottles. That's nonsense...
    Yes. It's nonsense. Then again, I'm not sure where you are coming up with 64 SCBA's needed.

    Engine, min of 4. Truck, min of 5, from what I remember.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Yes. It's nonsense. Then again, I'm not sure where you are coming up with 64 SCBA's needed.

    Engine, min of 4. Truck, min of 5, from what I remember.

    Engine = 4 SCBA and 4 Spares

    Truck/Service = 6 SCBA and 6 Spares


    I beleive LA uses the same numbers...

    But assuming 64 are required...

    64 is required if you have 16 Engines (4 x 16 = 64)

    64 is required if you have 10 Engines and 4 Trucks/Service. (4 x 10 = 40 Plus 6 x 4 = 24/ Total 64)



    If he is referring to riding positions, a 10 man (Engine) cab, this requires 10. The Engine only gets credit for 4. You may be able to apply 6 to a Combined Service Apparatus. But SOP must stipulate what Apparatus is responding.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Engine = 4 SCBA and 4 Spares

    Truck/Service = 6 SCBA and 6 Spares


    I beleive LA uses the same numbers...

    But assuming 64 are required...

    64 is required if you have 16 Engines (4 x 16 = 64)

    64 is required if you have 10 Engines and 4 Trucks/Service. (4 x 10 = 40 Plus 6 x 4 = 24/ Total 64)



    If he is referring to riding positions, a 10 man (Engine) cab, this requires 10. The Engine only gets credit for 4. You may be able to apply 6 to a Combined Service Apparatus. But SOP must stipulate what Apparatus is responding.
    Could be wrong, but I thought he was running a few commercial/2man engine cabs and a bunch of brush trucks.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #32
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    I really don't have any idea...

    I was just illustrating what kind of numbers needed to get to 64.

    Brush trucks usually don't get much credit unless you are really stretching Service Points. Tank too small, pump too small, and capability for structure fires... to small, not to mention lack of equipment. You can be creative, but there is a limit. Common Sense.

    6 SCBA on a brush truck might get Service Credit, but that is only part of the points. Even if you split load the 6 beween the brush truck and a Engine, you still need more points. So it has to make sense and expained in your SOPs. If the proctor can't see it, then you get no credit.

    Mini/Midi Pumper designation is a better choice for Service... it still can be a Brush truck, but it should just be a bigger version and not ID'd Brush #454.

    Now... having said all of this... I have worked with proctors that were easy going and didn't make a huge deal out of little stuff. Some of the others are by the book. Then, there are the guys in the middle that you can never figure out.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  13. #33
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    I have worked with proctors that were easy going and didn't make a huge deal out of little stuff. Some of the others are by the book. Then, there are the guys in the middle that you can never figure out.
    I've done 2 ISO's with my Department. Both my proctors fit into option 1.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Yes. It's nonsense. Then again, I'm not sure where you are coming up with 64 SCBA's needed.

    Engine, min of 4. Truck, min of 5, from what I remember.
    LA property rating requires 4 on an engine irregardless of seats and 6 on a service.

    We have 6 engines (24) and 6 service trucks (36). One of our tankers, our heavy rescue and light rescue fills dual roles as a service trucks in addition to the three trucks designated purely as service.

    That's 60.

    We also maintain 4 spares, which we carry on our reserve engine. We can switch them out to the engines and service units to maintain that number but come inspection time they have to be on the reserve pumper.

    Our rating does not look at brush trucks unless they also serve as service trucks, in which case, they are counted as service.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-17-2011 at 02:57 PM.

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    PK, can I load up my tankers to make them service trucks also? My big issue is where to put all those airpacks on our brush trucks....

    I have two stations, about 9 miles apart. If I put a fully equipped service truck at one, would it help or not to put one at the other station? Or is the only way I get full service truck points by having one at each station (5 mile circle)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    PK, can I load up my tankers to make them service trucks also? My big issue is where to put all those airpacks on our brush trucks....

    I have two stations, about 9 miles apart. If I put a fully equipped service truck at one, would it help or not to put one at the other station? Or is the only way I get full service truck points by having one at each station (5 mile circle)
    Under the LA system, yes. In fact it's quite a common practice and many department's tankers actually count on the rating as service trucks.

    My combo department has one tanker which carries a full compliment of service equipment including 6 SCBA, 6 spare cylinders, K-12, chainsaw, generator, pike poles, lights and a vent fan giving it full service truck credit. it also carries a 35-foot ladder which gives us extra credit.

    MY VFD's tankers are not setup with enough compartment space to carry the full compliment. They do carry some of the equipment however which gives us partial credit. One of the 2 tankers carries a 35-foot ladder.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    I have heard that the maximum age for a pump apparatus is 10 years in front line service and 15 years in reserve status, or "you lose credit".

    ISO's web site says they do not limit the age of apparatus. Is this age limit a rumor, or is it true? And if it's true, where is it written?

    Thanks -

    phil

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301
    PK, can I load up my tankers to make them service trucks also? My big issue is where to put all those airpacks on our brush trucks....

    I have two stations, about 9 miles apart. If I put a fully equipped service truck at one, would it help or not to put one at the other station? Or is the only way I get full service truck points by having one at each station (5 mile circle)

    First, let me say.... sorry for the long delay in answering. I have been getting situated in my current (newest) command and time has been somewhat an issue. No rest for us old dogs it seems.


    A common way to get the Service Points is to declare Combined Service Apparatus on some of your fleet.

    By doing this you can catch the Service Points by carrying some of the Service Equipment on Engines, Tankers or Squads. But try to limit this to combining two vehicles that make sense and that typically roll together.

    Engines are the most common since you usually carry a lot of the Service Equipment anyway. Between an Engine and Service Truck you need 10 packs and spares. Carry 6 on the Engine & 4 on the Truck, or some combination so all can get to the scene.

    Carry ladders and pike poles on the Engine... we do this anyway... right? If you use a Squad (4x4, Brush, Fast Attack, whatever it is called), you can carry as much as possible for the points, but the Engine can be the heavy lifter.

    If a Tanker carries some service equipment, the question will be "is it a tanker, or a Truck". Typically tankers do not sit on a scene and must be kept in motion to maximize water supply points. So what you claim here may hurt you there. Personally, I would not use a tanker for Combined Service Apparatus. Your effort might be in vain if you use a tanker since some proctors may not view it the same way you do. There are some real sticklers out there. Some things that we know can score points are not documented.

    Some states do not use ISO, but model their own State Rating Bureau upon many similiar attributes of ISO. There can be differences and flexibility as LA suggests. The State of Missouri does recognize ISO so that is what you should pay attention to.

    Another benefit of Service Trucks is the response distance. Where Engines get maximum credit inside 1.5 road miles, Service Trucks are measured at 2.5 road miles. In theory, if you have two engines in two stations that overlap some common 1st due area, 1 Service Truck in one of the stations can serve both. In your situation, a Service Truck in both Stations will cover about half of the distance between the two. You can estimate their maximum ranges by using Google Earth and using the measure tools. These points are scored under the Distribution of Companies Criteria.

    In the real world, we know that Stations are hardly ever spaced 3 miles or closer together. This would not be cost-effective in most large districts, so we see stations located based on three factors: 1) based on population density 2) based upon property values 3) based upon significant risks (i.e. airports, heavy industrial, etc.). In other words, the biggest bang for the buck.

    For districts that I have managed, and some that I have assisted over the years, I typically try to design the fleet around Service Trucks, Ladders or both. Rule of thumb, one Service/Ladder for every two or three Engines, depending on Station Locations and overlapped first due areas. My most recent situation grouped three stations per Battalion in a cluster: 3 Engines, 1 Reserve Engine & 1 Service/Ladder. Stations in outlying areas usually were assigned a Service, opposed to the most populated or tallest structures getting the ladders. We all know what a Ladder is, but a Service is somewhat different, yet it has been defined by the equipment.

    The last Service Truck I built/designed was an Engine that had been modified and reclassified for Service Class. This avoided Combined Service Apparatus, and boosted the CREDIT FOR RESERVE PUMPERS and maximized the CREDIT FOR PUMP CAPACITY. This was a better trade off in that situation.

    But I have also used 1-1/2 ton flatbed trucks (400 to 600 gallons of water and 450 to 600 gpm pumps) that are stuffed to the gills. You don't get points for chrome and wax, so a battled scarred wagon will get the same points as the bright & shiny piece of art. You just need to justify its purpose and specs. Never be afraid to explain what you do to solve the problems. If you don't insist or demonstrate when required, they will not ask. That might cost you enough points to miss a class.


    I hope this answers your question and helps out.


    Quote Originally Posted by preyn2
    I have heard that the maximum age for a pump apparatus is 10 years in front line service and 15 years in reserve status, or "you lose credit".
    You answered your own question sir. ISO does not grade against the age of the apparatus.

    Since ISO pays attaention to NFPA, the only issue will be if the apparatus is still within the design specifications at the time the apparatus was built. Has the unit been modified, or is the pump really capable of 1250 gpm? This is where the pump test record is important.

    Maximum Age for Apparatus
    The Fire Suppression Rating Schedule (FSRS) does not specify any maximum age for fire apparatus. ISO uses NFPA standards to define whether or not the apparatus meets general requirements. In addition, pumper apparatus must pass a pump test. ISO will credit a pumper with its capability (gallons per minute) at a net pump pressure of 150 psi. Aerial apparatus must also pass an annual service test (including a nondestructive test at least every five years).
    If they are grading a in-house built apparatus, rules are a bit different. Commonly Tankers are home-built more than anything else, followed by Squads/Brush units. This depends on the call load breakdown of the department. What do they use more? Tankers are somewhat universal since you can use them anywhere when you need water, but a Brush Truck may not always go to the house fire. The basic rule of thumb is getting your specs down on paper.

    Brush Units usually don't get scored during a survey, unless you have a monster pump and tank combo. But in many places, a Fast Attack (or Squad) may have been desgined with 300 gallons of water and a 750 pump. That could score some points for combined pumping capabilities and Service Points. But keep in mind, this might be considered a Heavy Brush on a 1-1/2 ton truck. There is that weight thing to be considered when boondocking.

    I hope this was helpful.

    -----------------------------

    Have a Safe Memorial Day.


    PK
    Last edited by PaladinKnight; 05-29-2011 at 01:41 AM.
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    How does ISO handle a village contracting its' services out to another village? We are going to be contracting out an engine company in another village. Would our village get credit for this engine? Would the other village get credit for our other two engines and truck?

    When ISO lists nozzle requirements, do they have to be extras or can they be on the end of our hose loads?

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    Contact ISO directly to get an answer. We recently asked ISO for guidance, to see if the city fire pumper can leave city limits for responses. Same for fire district apparatus leaving the district for mutual aid.

    Best to pose the question to ISO directly. Keep a copy of the response for future reference.

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