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Thread: ISO's new FSRS

  1. #1
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    Default ISO's new FSRS

    Has anyone undergone the new BETA testing of the ISO FSRS (Fire Suppression Rating Schedule)? OR has anyone had ISO contact you concerning the new schedule?
    Thanks
    Last edited by Seagravesstick; 07-09-2010 at 12:36 AM.


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    Default ISO Slayer

    Surely someone has seen this thing.....

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    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    From my evaluation it looks like the volunteer depts are going to have the worst end of the deal.
    • Increase in minimum pump capacity for engines from 50 gpm to 250 gpm in communities with Public Protection Classifications (PPCTM) of 9, as referenced in NFPA 1901

    • A corresponding increase in the minimum amount of water from 300 to 500 gallons delivered by all responding apparatus on the initial alarm

    • Increase in minimum pump capacity for engines from 250 gpm to 750 gpm for Class 1 to Class 8 communities, as referenced in NFPA 1901

      These three will hurt very marginal depts that have smaller trucks and minimal pumping capability. I tend to agree with these.


    • A requirement that, for a PPC of 8 or better, the fire department must have sufficient membership to assure response by at least six members (including the chief) to fires in structures (Recognized automatic aid may contribute up to two of the responding members.)

      This one will hurt most rural depts during days.


    • Reduction of the credit value for reserve pumper and ladder/service apparatus

      Considering that there are only 2 points at risk, and the fatc that most rural depts don't have Reserve Units, I don't see much negative here.



      Foam application system:
    • Credit for high-energy compressed air foam systems (CAFS)
    • Credit for low-energy Class A and Class B foam proportioning systems

      I wonder where these points will come from; Reserve Units, or increase the point total.



      Additional emphasis on firefighter safety and training:
    • Requirement for protective clothing ensemble for all fire-suppression personnel at structure fires, as referenced in NFPA 1001

    • No credit for training without proper documentation, as referenced in NFPA 1401

    • Credit for credentialing of fire officers, as referenced in the National Incident Management System (NIMS) recommendations and NFPA 1021, in addition to continuing education officer training

    • Increased credit for training of fire apparatus drivers and operators, as referenced in NFPA 1002 and NFPA 1451

      I am all for PPE and Training, but the Certifications will be tough for the Rural Depts. Depts with limited budgets may lose points on the PPE.


    • Preincident building familiarization and planning surveys reduced to annual frequency, with up-to-date notes and sketches available to the incident commander, as referenced in NFPA 1620

      This shouldn't change Rural Depts unless they restructure how the points are applied.


    • New approach for fire department deployment analysis using a fire departmentís demonstrated performance analysis when there is adequate quality data available (Credit is based on the extent to which the department meets the time constraints for the initial arriving engine company and deployment of full-alarm assignment, as outlined in NFPA 1710.)

      OR

    • Revised approach to the existing 1Ĺ-mile and 2Ĺ-mile standard response evaluation of engine and ladder/service company coverage areas without establishing additional needed company locations, with an increased emphasis on the actual distribution (deployment analysis) coverage by existing companies

      This plays up to the full-time depts, but could help the rural depts if they have their act together.

    --------------------------

    I don't see any help for rural Depts with Alternative Water Supplies except the change on the 1 hour NFF for single family dwellings.

    It looks like ISO has bent to demands by the large Metro Depts and perhaps is thinking that rural dept grading has been too lean. I think they have tried to balance this the best they can, but they are looking at the bottom line, where insurance companies do most of their business; Metro and Medium Sized Cities.

    I hope that the feedback they receive causes them to reconsider some of this and toss it aside. Until we see this implemented, we really won't know the full extent or damage to the smaller depts.

    I did some work for a dept (hydraulics study / shuttle ) that just completed their survey in Sept. I am not certain if they were included in the beta, but it is my guess they were. I couldn't attend, and they didn't ask. I should know the results in few weeks.

    Another Dept just received their report and it was about what I had estimated. Unfortunately, I didn't get to assist on that one before their survey. We probably could have pushed for another 3-4 points on their Water Score by increasing their Tgpm (reducing refill and dump times). They were reclassified to 7 from 9 so not a bad first time by any means. They were graded under the original FSRS.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    I just ordered a new FSRS, but was sort of hoping that Fire Chiefs online would have it, which it does not, at least not where I can find it.

    Does anyone have this information you could email, including the part about CAFS?

    bbowers@mozarks.com

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    Did not the minimum NFF used to be 250?

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    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    LVFD: I sent you an email.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Default ISO Slayer

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    From my evaluation it looks like the volunteer depts are going to have the worst end of the deal.
    • Increase in minimum pump capacity for engines from 50 gpm to 250 gpm in communities with Public Protection Classifications (PPCTM) of 9, as referenced in NFPA 1901

    • A corresponding increase in the minimum amount of water from 300 to 500 gallons delivered by all responding apparatus on the initial alarm

    • Increase in minimum pump capacity for engines from 250 gpm to 750 gpm for Class 1 to Class 8 communities, as referenced in NFPA 1901

      These three will hurt very marginal depts that have smaller trucks and minimal pumping capability. I tend to agree with these.


    • A requirement that, for a PPC of 8 or better, the fire department must have sufficient membership to assure response by at least six members (including the chief) to fires in structures (Recognized automatic aid may contribute up to two of the responding members.)

      This one will hurt most rural depts during days.


    • Reduction of the credit value for reserve pumper and ladder/service apparatus

      Considering that there are only 2 points at risk, and the fatc that most rural depts don't have Reserve Units, I don't see much negative here.



      Foam application system:
    • Credit for high-energy compressed air foam systems (CAFS)
    • Credit for low-energy Class A and Class B foam proportioning systems

      I wonder where these points will come from; Reserve Units, or increase the point total.



      Additional emphasis on firefighter safety and training:
    • Requirement for protective clothing ensemble for all fire-suppression personnel at structure fires, as referenced in NFPA 1001

    • No credit for training without proper documentation, as referenced in NFPA 1401

    • Credit for credentialing of fire officers, as referenced in the National Incident Management System (NIMS) recommendations and NFPA 1021, in addition to continuing education officer training

    • Increased credit for training of fire apparatus drivers and operators, as referenced in NFPA 1002 and NFPA 1451

      I am all for PPE and Training, but the Certifications will be tough for the Rural Depts. Depts with limited budgets may lose points on the PPE.


    • Preincident building familiarization and planning surveys reduced to annual frequency, with up-to-date notes and sketches available to the incident commander, as referenced in NFPA 1620

      This shouldn't change Rural Depts unless they restructure how the points are applied.


    • New approach for fire department deployment analysis using a fire departmentís demonstrated performance analysis when there is adequate quality data available (Credit is based on the extent to which the department meets the time constraints for the initial arriving engine company and deployment of full-alarm assignment, as outlined in NFPA 1710.)

      OR

    • Revised approach to the existing 1Ĺ-mile and 2Ĺ-mile standard response evaluation of engine and ladder/service company coverage areas without establishing additional needed company locations, with an increased emphasis on the actual distribution (deployment analysis) coverage by existing companies

      This plays up to the full-time depts, but could help the rural depts if they have their act together.

    --------------------------

    I don't see any help for rural Depts with Alternative Water Supplies except the change on the 1 hour NFF for single family dwellings.

    It looks like ISO has bent to demands by the large Metro Depts and perhaps is thinking that rural dept grading has been too lean. I think they have tried to balance this the best they can, but they are looking at the bottom line, where insurance companies do most of their business; Metro and Medium Sized Cities.

    I hope that the feedback they receive causes them to reconsider some of this and toss it aside. Until we see this implemented, we really won't know the full extent or damage to the smaller depts.

    I did some work for a dept (hydraulics study / shuttle ) that just completed their survey in Sept. I am not certain if they were included in the beta, but it is my guess they were. I couldn't attend, and they didn't ask. I should know the results in few weeks.

    Another Dept just received their report and it was about what I had estimated. Unfortunately, I didn't get to assist on that one before their survey. We probably could have pushed for another 3-4 points on their Water Score by increasing their Tgpm (reducing refill and dump times). They were reclassified to 7 from 9 so not a bad first time by any means. They were graded under the original FSRS.
    Yes I have seen this information, it is posted on ISO's website. I was really hoping to see a copy of the BETA paperwork, the actual rating questions in the new format. And I couldn't agree more with you... This new rating will really be a challange for a alot of departments. IAFC has endorsed it, I'm not sure they know what they are getting.... A lot of promises from ISO... Give it 5 years and we in the fire service will all be asking why in the world did we let this happen.... People... Please remember... if ISO is going to give you credit for something (CAFS, Fire prevention, more equipment) they are going to TAKE POINTS AWAY FROM YOU if you don't have it....

  8. #8
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Some of this comment is in response to Seagravesstick. But I urge most of you to pay attention to what is discussed here, especially if your department is Class 9, volunteer or combination, rural or mixed.... or any combination of these.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Seagravesstick: I've checked with a few of my contacts at ISO and they are not talking much about it. It seems to me that the BETA is very closely held and only being tested in pre-selected areas.

    One of the guys I visited with said "Now you are trying to get me in trouble, you know I can't talk about that yet." The only thing he would officially state is that "There is too much concern about this and the Fire Departments should not worry about the changes."

    I don't know... when someone tells me not to worry, I do get concerned.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The rest of you can start reading here:

    One thing that has caught my attention is ISO's statement on the increase on depts reverting, or losing a higher classification when they can no longer maintain the previous capabilities. They blame most of this on Economic reasons and the inability of departments to retain sufficient numbers of volunteer members.

    While I think this might be partly correct, I wonder if some of the curve was moved as well. Some of the newer proctors that are in the field seem more business-like and less human. That has a negative affect on a departments ability to function at their highest level. And in my opinion, does damage to ISO's image and ability to gain trust.

    One of the recent Surveys I assisted on was much like going to a funeral. The proctor never smiled, didn't react to a good joke, and never made eye contact with me or the Department's Chief. I asked him if my presence bothered him and he said, "Yes, this is none of your business". It is my business due to my fidiciary responsibility to the client. My function and purpose is much like having your attorney present when you need him/her.

    While my signature or name is not tied directly to the survey, the reports, or the department, hours of my work are certainly there with the purpose of assisting that department with overcoming specific issues that help them acquire every possible advantage and point. So you can call me a Technical Advisor or Advocate, it is the same... and I represent that department.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is tough enough for most departments to overcome the fear of ISO. My concern is the new FSRS will increase that fear. Despite the job ISO tries to do to educate Departments and reduce the fear-factor, when a poor proctor makes you feel uncomfortable, it just amplifies that fear.

    I am sure that someone at ISO will read this and take notice. So if you are listening... please take note about the level of concern out here in the hinterland.


    What about the fear factor? Look at this way... your team is on stage giving the performance of a lifetime. They can get stage fright real easy if you don't have strong level headed officers to keep them motivated. Sometimes a little pep talk goes along way. They know when they blow it, but they need someone to keep them focussed and moving forward. Otherwise, they continue to worry about the mistakes, and more mistakes are likely to follow.

    Those of you that have never gone through one of these, I should explain this a little more. Part of the test is watching the department function without the leader.... the fire chief. He is nothing more than a shadow or ghost and cannot lead his team along the path. So it is vital that you develop good leaders that can stand-up in the command.

    The first time I participated in an ISO Evaluation, I was a Captain. Our Assistant Chief failed to show up for his part. I had no idea of what to expect. None of us did. My Chief told me 5 minutes before the Proctor arrived that I had to lead the team during the testing. You talk about a load on your shoulders, that was the entire universe. Fortunately the team was used to me pushing them to their limits on everything we did, but I always knew the Chief and AC were my safety net. Not that day.

    After the evaluation, I finally had a chance to visit with the Proctor. I wanted to tell him that it was my responsibility that we made many mistakes. Looking back on it now, we did pretty well after-all. The department improved from 9 to 7, with only about half a point keeping us from Class 6. About 18 months later we knocked out a Class 5.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    So those of you still thinking about this... get over the fear... please.

    If your department is a Class 9, do something about it. I figure you have about 6 months to one year with the current FSRS. I could be wrong... but I don't expect ISO to file the new FSRS in every State at the same time, and it could drag on for a while.

    Under the current system, a Class 8 is not that difficult, despite what you think. If you can deliver 250gpm for two hours, you can be an 8. If you can do better than that, it is time to quit sitting on your hands.

    So now I am going to make some of you feel guilty.

    You know that public that you protect? They have supported your department through thick and thin.

    Besides putting out the fires, responding to MVCs and Medicals at all hours of the day and night, what have you done for them?

    If you haven't tried to improve that Class 9, you haven't given back to them by lowering their insurance premiums. Ok, you have an excuse, money, lack of it. Or maybe lack of support because your community has given up on you.

    Here is what you should know... if you save them money, you will be rewarded. If you do it right, improving the Public Protection Classification can actually increase your budget. A good amount of the money saved may go directly back into the fire department, which helps you do a better job. Your team will be heros, not because they really are, but because they overcame the fear and gave back to the people that support the department. Money gets everyones attention.

    Demand for what I do has recently increased. I think it is mostly due to the new FSRS. Departments are trying to get in under the current system since we cannot be sure what is coming. Only about 65% of the depts that I provide assistance to, go through with the Survey. For some reason, I just can't help some overcome the fear. It runs deep and it is real. But I can promise you that there are real dangers out there that you should be afraid of. The ISO survey is not one of them. Whatever you think it is, it is not like doing an interior attack while trying to rescue victims.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now do not get it in your head that I am trying to get more business. This isn't about me, and I am plenty busy. Anyone can go to ISO Mitigation Online http://www.isomitigation.com/ and read everything there is to know about what is expected. ISO gives you the book and the answers. Think of it as an Open-Book Test.

    For those of you that still have more questions than answers, some of us out here will try to help. But this really comes down to you, your department, and the capabilities of your fleet and members. If you move just a little, then you have done alot more than many departments ever will. I would prefer that you go all out and get everything you can.

    Some of you didn't test your pumps or hose. That hurts but there is nothing stopping you from doing it now, except time.

    Some of you didn't fulfill the training requirements. That part is going to get tougher I expect so go with what you have.

    Some of you don't have foam, or all of the nozzles or tools... those are points, but they can be overcome.

    For most, it is the water supply that is your weakest link, and that is what ISO will look for: "The Weakest Link". Whatever you believe your Fire Department Score is, you need to focus on building the Water Supply to about the same level.

    What I mean by this, is do not concentrate on getting your Fire Department score to the equivalent of Class 3 if your Water Supply Score is only around Class 8. Put more energy into improving the Water Supply to equalize the two scores.

    An equalizing factor called Divergence offsets a huge difference between the Fire Department and Water Supply scores. So a Class 3 Fire Dept Score against a Class 8 Water Supply score will penalize you very heavily, close to 10 points in Negative Divergence. Your dept won't be a Class 3, 4, 5; 6 is doubtful. Without water, your as good as dead... but you already know that.

    Anytown FD - Example:

    50% of the ISO Evaluation is the Fire Department score; the fleet, equipment, manpower, training and station locations.

    Credit for Engine Companies

    For every Engine, compare the equipment to the required equipment list. For this example, let's estimate you can score 2.5 points out of 10.



    Credit for Reserve Pumpers

    This is anything that is not in your front line that is comparable to your Engines. For this example, you don't have one and get no credit. But there is only 1 point available here, so while it is a loss, it isn't going to kill you.



    Credit for Pump Capacity

    For this example, ISO advises you need 2000gpm for your Basic Fire Flow. If you have two trucks with 1000gpm pumps, you are there. For this example, you get 5 out of 5 points.



    Credit for Ladder/Service Companies

    So you don't have a ladder truck. Do you have a truck that you can be classified as a Service Truck? Look at the Service Company Equipment list and see if this is something you can do. There are 5 points in the criteria. Lets estimate you can get 3 of them by having a truck that carries Service Equipment. Let also say this truck has a 750gpm or better pump is added to your pump capacity.

    Credit for Reserve Ladder/Service Companies

    Ok so you lose the 1 point here. But I have seen depts get a small credit because their engine might carry Service Equipment. I might add, If you claim 'Combined Service Apparatus' on the Service Truck and Engine, it will help. Lets forget this point for now.

    Credit for Distribution of Companies

    This where ISO evaluates the percentage of your district that has an Engine Company 1.5 miles and a Ladder/Service 2.5 miles from the structures in your district. If your district is huge and you have one station, this might not look too good. Remember, anything outside of 5 miles, you're not helping much. But if you have a fair percentage of structures within the road miles, these points will help. For this example, lets say you get .5 points of the 4 possible.


    Credit for Company Personnel

    ISO evaluates the average number of firefighters & officers on duty. If you only have volunteers, you need to get the number of FFs as high as possible on structure fires. You will get credit for about 30% of the membership on your roster. If you have 24 members, they will be counted as 7 firefighters. If you average 15 at the structure fire, it will help. There are 15 points in this criteria, lets say you get 5.

    Credit for Training

    This includes your pre-fire Inspections and your training library and facilties. This is a tough area for many departments with 9 points on the line. Let's say you meet 90% of the training requirement, have a limited library and borrow the neighbors training tower. But you have never done inspections. I'll give you 3 points here.

    Let see where we are:

    Credit for Engine Companies = 2.5 of 10 possible
    Credit for Reserve Pumpers = 0 of 1 possible
    Credit for Pump Capacity = 5 of 5 possible
    Credit for Ladder/Service Companies = 3 of 5 possible
    Credit for Reserve Ladder/Service Companies = 0 of 1 possible
    Credit for Distribution of Companies = .5 of 4 possible
    Credit for Company Personnel = 5 of 15 possible
    Credit for Training = 3 of 9 possible

    Total Fire Department = 18.9 out of 50 possible or 37.8% The Fire Dept Score is Class 7, and we have left a lot of points on the table.

    Now we need to focus on getting the water supply as close as possible to 37%.

    40% of the ISO Evaluation is on your Water Supply. 35 of the 40 points are just on the Water System. This is where you really need to focus. If you do this right, you will be successful. If you don't have hydrants, you need tankers. Your tankers should be of the same design and capacity. For this example, lets use the two 2500 gallon tankers I just brought to your station. We need a way to fill them. So we need a pumper or engine to draft from a water source. If you have ponds, rivers, creeks, or a lake, you're in business. We'll put our highest gpm pump at the water source. In this case, we will use a 1000gpm pump.

    Because Water Supply and Delivery is a highly skilled and technical operation, I will skip how we do it and go straight to the points. I'll add that these two tankers could refill in 3 minutes, 8 minutes of travel time and dumped their load in about 1.5 minutes. So the tanker roundtrip time is about 12.5 minutes covering 2 miles. For a little comfort space, I will use 13 minutes.

    Since tankers will be arriving every 6.5 minutes or so, do some math and see what gpm your Fireground Engine can maintain.

    Answer: 90% of 2500 gallons arrives every 6.5 minutes; divide gallons available by the number of minutes before the next tanker arrives to get the Engine gpm. In this case, about 346 gpm. Wow, that is more than 250gpm required to get a Class 8.

    Okay, it isn't really this simple, but I am trying to make a point so you think about this. Lets say ISO gives you 12 points out of 40 for your water supply. That is 30% and Class 7.

    **Assuming that your Receiving and Handling Calls is marginal, and you can get 3 or 4 points out of the 10 possible, you will be in good shape. This catagory is 10% of the department total. Of course, much of this Catagory is completely out of your hands. This would be up to your 911 system, the County Sheriff or whoever pages your dept.


    Dept Totals
    Call Handling = 3 of 10
    Fire Dept = 18.9 of 50
    Water Supply = 12 of 40

    Total = 33.9

    Divergence = -1.56 ***The Difference between Water and Fire totals. The Fire Dept Score is slightly better than the Water Supply Score. Formula = (D= -0.5 * (WS - 0.8 * FD) * 10

    Final Total = 32.3

    When we look at the Totals for this department, it looks like it should be a Class 7.

    Could this be your department. You won't know until you educate yourself and do it. I have seen departments that had everything they needed in place, but were afraid to try. When they finally did it, they move from 9 to Class 6 without much concern or effort.

    Class 8 saves about 20% on Insurance Premiums for the homeowners.
    Class 7 saves about 35% on Insurance Premiums for the homeowners.
    Class 6 saves about 50% on Insurance Premiums for the homeowners.

    Because I am trying to provoke you into action, I have simplified the Example Survey. While it is work, it is worth the effort. There are many things that are considered that I haven't talked about, but this is the meat of the subject.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------



    We're all on the same team. Our primary purpose is to protect the public. If anything I stated gives you some assistance to doing it better, then I have fulfilled my mission.

    I just want your department to perform at the highest possible level. I want your public to save some money on their insurance premiums.


    So get off your butt and do it, now!
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    PaladinKnight: I've checked with a few of my contacts at ISO and they are not talking much about it. It seems to me that the BETA is very closely held and only being tested in pre-selected areas.

    One of the guys I visited with said "Now you are trying to get me in trouble, you know I can't talk about that yet." The only thing he would officially state is that "There is too much concern about this and the Fire Departments should not worry about the changes."

    I don't know... when someone tells me not to worry, I do get concerned.

    My contacts at ISO are telling me the same thing.... Like this thing is National Security or something... And I too get a bit worried when someone tells me not to worry.... Had a wife who became an ex-wife right after those immortal words...

    It does appear that the requests for my services have increased as well... Could be the economy picking back up... or as you suggest trying to get in under the "Old FSRS" who knows.

    I can agree with PaladinKnight... whether or not you agree with ISO, their data directly impacts the insurance industry, kinda like arguing with gravity, you may not agree with it, but your life will be impacted by it none the less. As such, there are billions of dollars in this country left on the table because we in the fire service keep saying "I don't care about that and it's not worth it to mess with". We owe it to our constituents to provide them with the lowest possible insurance costs that we can provide. A lot of us don't get any credit for what we do have and provide and it really isn't that hard to get this credit... we just need to put forth some effort.

    Yes, I provide this service, but I really don't care whether you choose to tackle ISO on your own or with the help of a consultant. There are numerous people in this country that provide this service, some are only in it for the money, or the look at me factor, but there are a few of us truly in it because of our passion for the fire service and our desire to see you be the best you can be and because of that desire you can go to my web site www.isoslayer.com and download our free book to help you on your own. So however you choose to go...... Just "Do it"
    Last edited by Seagravesstick; 10-06-2010 at 10:32 AM.

  10. #10
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    What about the fear factor? Look at this way... your team is on stage giving the performance of a lifetime. They can get stage fright real easy if you don't have strong level headed officers to keep them motivated. Sometimes a little pep talk goes along way. They know when they blow it, but they need someone to keep them focussed and moving forward. Otherwise, they continue to worry about the mistakes, and more mistakes are likely to follow.

    Those of you that have never gone through one of these, I should explain this a little more. Part of the test is watching the department function without the leader.... the fire chief. He is nothing more than a shadow or ghost and cannot lead his team along the path. So it is vital that you develop good leaders that can stand-up in the command.
    Is this something new?

    I've been through the ISO 3 times for my Department and we have never performed anything. Just provided LOTS of paperwork. And we've stayed a class 4 (missing by less than 10 points) due to preplan information.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #11
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Depends on what kind of department you have there. If you have hydrants, LDH and Full Time Staff, then the survey is much different.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Gotcha. Hydrants and LDH we have. Full time staff, no. We also have an ocean to draft from when needed...
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    The water supply operation is a lot different when using hydrants. The departments that have them don't have to draft. So it really comes down to the Water Department at that point.

    ISO just inventories your Engine and Ladder/Service equipment to verify you can handle hydrants.

    The water capacity calculations are still based on location and need. In the last 15 years I think I have only seen maybe 10 departments that had hydrants actually have to plumb one.

    The departments that depend on Tankers have a steep hill to climb. ISO calculates the refill and dump times of each tanker to determine the final fireground gpm. This usually requires a static water supply; creek, river, pond, lake, etc. Some depts draft from static water, or refill from hydrants, or both. If they draft to refill, then the draft is timed along with the tankers.

    So the only way to calculate the gpm is to actually do it. Then, part of the evaluation tests the Fireground capacity of the dept. The fireground engine must pump from draft (porta-tank) within 5 minutes. That doesn't sound hard, but here is the drill:

    Engine rolls in from 200' and sets up dump tank and establishes attack line. Pump Operator initiates pump and sets up suction hose. Tanker rolls in from 200' and dumps load into dump tank, then pulls away. Operator begins draft operation from dump tank.

    In an area where the dept can simply grab a hydrant, the water supply is already known, and doesn't require all of the above. So you can now see how impressive it is when you hear about a rural volunteer department that carries PPC 4, 5 or 6 that uses tankers.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Default ISO Slayer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Is this something new?

    I've been through the ISO 3 times for my Department and we have never performed anything. Just provided LOTS of paperwork. And we've stayed a class 4 (missing by less than 10 points) due to preplan information.
    One thing I would like to point out for you is that the fire department can improve the water score, even in an area where there is a municipal water system... It's called FDS (Fire Department Supply) It can be in the form of water shuttle, LDH hose lays, drafting, or a combination of any method.

    Let's say that your city has a building that has a NFF (Needed Fire Flow) of 3,500 GPM, but the water mains within 1000' of that building only allow you to provide 2,000 GPM by ISO rules, but 2,500 feet away is another water main that will provide the missing water... You will only receive 57% credit for that test location, UNLESS, you can provide a solution... You can supply the missing water with a water shuttle operation, or you can agument the water by laying LDH hose to the larger water line, or you can utilize static water sources. In any case, in order to go beyond 1000' for water supply you will need an SOP stating what you do, pre-plans indicating how you will do it and you will need to "Show" ISO how you perfom it... Unless you want to maintain your ISO 4 and only receive the 1000' credit...

    And one last thing.... you will have to "ASK" ISO to receive any credit for FDS...

    Happy ISOing

  15. #15
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    That's the part I was missing. We have exactly that scenario, but have never had to demonstrate it. That's why I was asking if it was something new.

    and yes, we get credit for it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  16. #16
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    Can someone elaborate on the scenarios that you have to demonstrate if you are going to do a shuttle survey? We are currently converting an old ambo to our service unit and changing our equipment leoads so any help would be appreciatted. Jeorge

  17. #17
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    If you haven't done so, you need to complete the pre-survey forms:

    http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/5000/ppc5011.html



    Here is the link for Engine Equipment:

    http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3003.html



    Here is the link for Service Equipment:

    http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3005.html



    Here is the Link for Alternative Water Supplies (Tankers):

    http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3011.html

    ______________________________ ______________________________ ____

    Most likely, you will have to perform a few tests:

    Tanker Filling
    The Refill Time is recorded:

    1) Tanker stops at refill location (Tanker begins approach, time begins when Tanker is 200 feet from location)

    2) Draft Apparatus fill Tanker (Refill line(s) are connected, Tanker filled, line(s) disconnected)

    3) Tanker leaves refill location (Time stops when Tanker is 200 feet from the refill location)




    Tanker Dumping (Offload)
    The Offloading time is recorded:

    1) Tanker approaches dump location (Time begins approach, time begins when Tanker is 200 feet from dump location)

    2) Tanker manuevers and dumps load

    3) Tanker pulls away from dump location (Time stops when Tanker is 200 feet from the dump zone)



    Apparatus Pump Test

    1) Engine begins approach to demonstration area (Time begins when Engine is 200 feet from the location)

    2) Crew sets porta-tank, connects draft line and prepares attack hose

    3) Pump Operator engages pump and transitions from booster tank to draft from porta-pond. Time stops when Engine is drafting from porta-pond, (must pump water from porta-pond within 5 minutes)

    ______________________________ ______________________________ ____

    Water Supplies must have 50 year Drought Certificate to be included for consideration.

    ______________________________ ______________________________ ____

    If you wish to contact me by email, I will be glad to visit with you about your equipment and water supply questions:

    pknight0@yahoo.com
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  18. #18
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    Default ISO Slayer

    You may also contact me at ddoudy@centurytel.net or visit my web site at www.isoslayer.com

  19. #19
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    You guys clarify Engine Company Equipment for Nozzles

    2ea 2-1/2" straight stream w/shutoff - pistol combination 2-1/2" nozzle, or pistol combination 1-1/2" nozzle w/adapter for 2-1/2", or playpipe or Zerotorque in either method is equivalent/OK but have to flow more than 200gpm?

    2ea 2-1/2" combination - Any flow rating of 2-1/2" combo or 1-1/2" w/adapter.

    Service co 500gpm - a quick attack montior (Mercury or Blitzfire etc).

    Do you actually need to move stuff around to meet NFPA load list for the inspection. Or just show them what vehicle it is actually on? For example: 6x SCBA/4x spare cylinder on this 1000gpm pumper and 2x SCBA/8x spare cylinders on this 1000gpm pumper and 4x SCBA/no spares on this wildland (Service) truck. SCBA all in perm. brackets, cylinders in wheelwell tubes.

  20. #20
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    This is from the ISO Equilalency List:

    Engine

    2-1/2" straight stream (playpipe) with shutoff

    Portable attack monitor with solid-bore tip

    2-1/2" combination (straight stream & spray) with shutoff
    200-gpm nozzles
    or
    1-3/4" combination vari-nozzle tip nozzles with a 2-1/2" adapter
    or
    Portable attack monitor with fog tip


    Service

    Large spray nozzle (500-gpm minimum)
    500 gpm or larger (may be carried on a pumper)


    I would move two of the SCBA to the Engine that only has 2.

    Check these links for the Equipment Lists.

    Engine: http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3003.html
    Service: http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3005.html
    Equivalency: http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3007.html

    You don't provide enough info on the Wildland (Service) for me to recommend very much. But you should have 6 SCBA with 6 spare cylinders for maximum points. The Service Trucks main purpose is to carry ancillary equipment that support the Engine Company; generator, saw/cutting torch, fan and 6 spare cylinders =84 points of 334. Each SCBA is worth 16 points so you will already be down 128 points without those items. Unless you carry ladders, you will lose another 48 points. Give me some more info so we can see where you are with this unit.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is my opinion: I would not risk anything to chance. I have seen proctors that could score either way on SCBA locations. If you don't load 4 on an Engine and you get a guy that is going by the book, you will get no extra points for the extra 2 on the 1st Engine, but lose 32 points on the 2nd Engine. Most will allow you to split them, but it can go either way. With recent changes in the field, I wouldn't tempt it.

    The only deviation that seems somewhat consistant is concerning CSA (Combined Service Apparatus).

    They will give you credit for the Service Truck even if some of the equipment is loaded onto the Engine. But do not overdo it. Again, I wouldn't take too much risk on how you load your equipment. If they see you are trying, that will help.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    I just helped complete a survey this week. I watched the proctor not give credit for equipment because it was not on the correct truck. I inquired about that and he reconsidered part of it. The issue was the department had a Wildland truck they classified as a Service. It did not carry ladders or SCBA, but their Engine Carried extra ladders and 10 SCBA. They did get the Service points for 2 SCBA, the fan, saw and tarps on the Engine.

    From my observation, it appears that some of these guys are confused and that there are currently no clear directives on some things. This has been an on-going issue.

    Because of what I will call inconsistancies, I advise depts to go as much by the book as possible. Until we see where the new system goes, there is no point in assuming anything. I have seen some excellent proctors, as well as a few that scare me.

    I hope this answers your questions.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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