1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    Antiquated or not, the people setting the rules aren't going to change their minds. These are the one's who are hiring and trying to make their department the "Shining Star". I wouldn't work for a Chief who wasn't thinking that.
    And I wouldn't want to work for a Chief so shallow that he thought the presence of ink on a firefighter had anything to do with the quality of the department.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    I know that's extreme but still the same argument.
    Not even close. A uniform is something you take on and off every day. Requiring a specified uniform while on duty isn't remotely the same thing as trying to tell someone what they can and can't do with their own skin. Firefighters are employees of the department; not property of the department.

    What next? Should we forbid firefighters to get too dark a tan unless they cover it up because it represents high risk cancer-causing behavior?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    [QUOTE=DeputyMarshal;1195476]And I wouldn't want to work for a Chief so shallow that he thought the presence of ink on a firefighter had anything to do with the quality of the department.


    This is where you're missing the big picture. Yourself and Peter are taking this a personal attack on your freedom of expression. It's not about that. It's about the initial first impression you make when you deal with your customers. If their house in on fire, I'm sure they cont care if you're painted green and wearing pink bunkers. If Grandma is having chest pains, it matters. Alot of departments send customer service surveys after a call. One of the questions is always appearance.

    I admire your passion but tone it down just a notch.

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    maybe i have poor reading comprehension, but i fail to see when he toned it 'up'. Just because someone doesn't agree (or proves you wrong) with you doesn't mean they are being aggressive or unruly.

    but back to the issue at hand.

    When the surveys go out, and granny /lived/ to tell the tale of her experience with the service you provided, the service that more than likely helped her stay alive. I doubt she'll complain about the work done on your arm.

    And all we have is curmudgeons with hypothetical situations that have no empirical data to support them. Is there any evidence to support the fact that tattoo's are that reviled in the service orientated career fields? Of all the research i've read, public opinion of tattoos has become almost a non issue. Again, this stems from out of touch management enforcing standards that were applicable when they were on the floor.

    On the weight issue being a moot point. I beg to differ. The example i was trying to make was that even though there are rules/governance on the books requiring a certain weight standard (as it affects appearance and health) we as a culture laugh it off. Oh he's just an engineer, or oh, he's just a jolly volly, it's ok.

    When in reality that is more disgusting and look upon by society at large than the issue of tattoos. Yet here we are, arguing about the merits/evils of a /new/ regulation when we don't really enforce the ones we have on the books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    This is where you're missing the big picture.
    Quite the contrary. I'm looking at the very big picture. It's called irrational prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    Yourself and Peter are taking this a personal attack on your freedom of expression.
    I can't speak for peter but, no, that's not how I take it at all. I take it as petty chicken sh|t micromanagement of something that has nothing to do with the fire department and everything to do with personal prejudice about someone else's freedom to do what they will with their own body.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    It's about the initial first impression you make when you deal with your customers.
    There was a time when that excuse was used to justify not hiring minoriteis, too. It's still the same issue of irrational personal prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    One of the questions is always appearance.
    And all it should be concerned with is neatness and personal grooming. Neither of which has anything to do with the presence of ink.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMZ191 View Post
    I admire your passion but tone it down just a notch.
    With all due respect, that's not your request to make.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-09-2010 at 06:06 PM. Reason: typo
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Reading the army tatoo policy I would not want ot stake my opinion of what was ok and have it done without first consulting with my CO. whan you read the policy it's their determination on what is offensive, racist and so on. It even says in there:

    (3) Counseling requirements.

    (a) Commanders will ensure soldiers understand the tattoo policy.

    (b) For soldiers who are not in compliance, commanders may not order the removal of a tattoo or brand. However, the commander must counsel soldiers, and afford them the opportunity to seek medical advice about removal or alteration of the tattoo or brand.
    (4) If soldiers are not in compliance with the policy, and refuse to remove or alter the tattoos or brands, commanders will:

    (a) Ensure the soldier understands the policy.

    (b) Ensure the soldier has been afforded the opportunity to seek medical advice about removal or alteration.

    (c) Counsel the soldier in writing. The counseling form will state that the soldier’s refusal to remove extremist, indecent, sexist, or racist tattoos or brands anywhere on the body, or refusal to remove any type of tattoo or brand visible in the class A uniform (worn with slacks/trousers), will result in discharge.

    If they don't have your same beliefs in offensive images as you do they can in the end discharge you
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    You're reading too much into the army tattoo policy. The mores that dictate what are offensive are fairly universal: Racial, sexist, curse words, nazi.

    If by different beliefs you mean an extremely religious person getting offended at my Jesus riding a dinosaur tattoo i have on my thigh, well, that's protected by /my/ religious (or lack of thereof) freedom

    And just for the record, you'd have to have something REALLY offensive to get discharged from the army.

    So now we've established that the armed forces do indeed allow tattoos at various locations on your body, some more than others.

    That defense of the 'tattoos are unprofessional' argument is gone. What do you guys have next?

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    It doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the customer thinks. When the leaders of the department get comments about how their crews look, they tend to do something about it. In the part of the world I live in, we get comments on hair length, shirt not tucked in, shoes not shined, and ink.

    As I heard a Chief tell someone some time ago. 'When you grow up and become Chief you can run things how you want, until then you will do it how I want it done.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    As I heard a Chief tell someone some time ago. 'When you grow up and become Chief you can run things how you want, until then you will do it how I want it done.'
    We have a winner!!!! Like I heard recently near here an EMS director said, "I am accepting applications every day! If you don't like how things are I don't mind opening the drawer!"
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    It doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the customer thinks.
    Only up to a point. It's naiive to propose that "the customer is always right" is anything more than a fortune cookie guideline rather than a hard and fast management rule.

    Is the customer right if he doesn't like Latinos? Female firefighters? Italians? Muslims? How about blonds? You can only cater to the "customer's" whims so much. If they still don't like it, they're welcome to get their fire protection elsewhere.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Only up to a point. It's naiive to propose that "the customer is always right" is anything more than a fortune cookie guideline rather than a hard and fast management rule.

    Is the customer right if he doesn't like Latinos? Female firefighters? Italians? Muslims? How about blonds? You can only cater to the "customer's" whims so much. If they still don't like it, they're welcome to get their fire protection elsewhere.
    When several to many of your 'customers' make comments about things that can be controlled maybe they should be listened to. No they're not welcome to get their protection elsewhere they pay us to provide for them. They can also make it much harder to do the job when they don't support the department (tax increase). Throwing the race card is BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    When several to many of your 'customers' make comments about things that can be controlled maybe they should be listened to.
    Like I said, only up to a point. Sometimes the customer has unreasonable expectations. You can't make everybody happy all of the time.

    Throwing the race card is BS.
    That might explain why I intentionally didn't include a racial example in the list...
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Like I said, only up to a point. Sometimes the customer has unreasonable expectations. You can't make everybody happy all of time.
    I agree and understand about making everyone happy all the time.

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    As I heard a Chief tell someone some time ago. 'When you grow up and become Chief you can run things how you want, until then you will do it how I want it done.'[/QUOTE]

    Yep...that's all I was trying to say Peterbound. I was referring to being humble to those that are in charge. i.e. chief officers. You have a right to your opinion...I have mine! That's great if your department doesn't have a problem with it. In my department, most people have made the decision to "humble" themselves to what the head MF wants..so it is what it is!! I don't come on these threads to insult anyone! I frankly don't give a s#@t enough to do that! Just simply participating in the discourse at hand. If my opinion makes me a fool as you've implied..well...I guess I gotta be a fool. But man...whata great job to be a fool!!! DAWG!!!

    "The Axeman"
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    Last edited by Theaxemancometh; 08-10-2010 at 04:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theaxemancometh View Post
    As I heard a Chief tell someone some time ago. 'When you grow up and become Chief you can run things how you want, until then you will do it how I want it done.'
    Yep...that's all I was trying to say Peterbound. I was referring to being humble to those that are in charge. i.e. chief officers. You have a right to your opinion...I have mine! That's great if your department doesn't have a problem with it. In my department, most people have made the decision to "humble" themselves to what the head MF wants..so it is what it is!! I don't come on these threads to insult anyone! I frankly don't give a s#@t enough to do that! Just simply participating in the discourse at hand. If my opinion makes me a fool as you've implied..well...I guess I gotta be a fool. But man...whata great job to be a fool!!! DAWG!!!

    "The Axeman"
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    'Purpose, Truth and Passion Yield Power and Dominion IN ACTION!!!"[/QUOTE]

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    All this "professional look" talk is bull in my opinion. As a whole, if a department has a good reputation in the community, who cares what the patient thinks of the firefighters. What are they going to do, write a letter? I did my time in the military, got my tattoos, and now I'm here. The only thing that should be controlled is offensive tattoos.

    Things change, and if others can't get on board with that then they should just keep their mouth shut until they don't have to worry about it anymore. These people spent time and money to get into a career of PUBLIC SERVICE, any time of the day or night, bringing you to the hospital because you have a headache at 3am, going into burning buildings to bring you out, and you can't let them live the way they want to live? Any kind of person that does care if a firefighter or cop has a tattoo, even if you take that away, will find something else to complain about. If anything, you show up with tattoos, take good care of them, and maybe help change their perception. Not that anyone should care if they do, but at the least they might think twice before judging someone because of ink on their skin or any other crap reason to be prejudiced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    All this "professional look" talk is bull in my opinion. As a whole, if a department has a good reputation in the community, who cares what the patient thinks of the firefighters. What are they going to do, write a letter? I did my time in the military, got my tattoos, and now I'm here. The only thing that should be controlled is offensive tattoos.

    Things change, and if others can't get on board with that then they should just keep their mouth shut until they don't have to worry about it anymore. These people spent time and money to get into a career of PUBLIC SERVICE, any time of the day or night, bringing you to the hospital because you have a headache at 3am, going into burning buildings to bring you out, and you can't let them live the way they want to live? Any kind of person that does care if a firefighter or cop has a tattoo, even if you take that away, will find something else to complain about. If anything, you show up with tattoos, take good care of them, and maybe help change their perception. Not that anyone should care if they do, but at the least they might think twice before judging someone because of ink on their skin or any other crap reason to be prejudiced.

    So, calling me prejudiced? I have been inked twice, but in a duty uniform you cant see anything. Still alone, if I were to see some one with full sleeves and crap going on in a interview setting, one word comes to mind..... NEXT. Yes I have the right to my opinion, I have spent 24yrs in the fire service and in a position now to help shape my departments future.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    So, calling me prejudiced? I have been inked twice, but in a duty uniform you cant see anything. Still alone, if I were to see some one with full sleeves and crap going on in a interview setting, one word comes to mind..... NEXT. Yes I have the right to my opinion, I have spent 24yrs in the fire service and in a position now to help shape my departments future.
    From Websters:

    a : (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

    According to this, I suppose so. I didn't define the word. I agree, if you see sleeves in an interview, NEXT, I can't imagine an interview setting where you could see sleeves. Unless that person was severely, unprofessionally underdressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    From Websters:

    a : (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge Did you not read above where I have been inked? b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

    According to this, I suppose so. I didn't define the word. I agree, if you see sleeves in an interview, NEXT, I can't imagine an interview setting where you could see sleeves. Unless that person was severely, unprofessionally underdressed.
    I also show up at the CPAT testing, looking at ones who are lolligaging around, ones that show up in a full beard and what not. Even had one guy show up all "in the hood" with his underwear exposed. I looked at the chief and said "how ya' going to buy a uniform to fit that?"

    You know everyone gets wrapped up in a "freedom of speach" thing in the fire service. It has been proven recently in court, while on duty the "freedom" of speach is VERY limited. To be quite honest, I could care less what someone is trying to say in their body art, to me it makes me feel as if I am having to look at a book I don't want to look at. My two are simple and hidden on my upper arms, one is a Maltese cross, the other is a fire scene tribute to my grandfather that was a chief in my dept earlier. Both are hidden and in a short sleeve shirt no one knows any difference. I don't stand on my soap box about the issue and tell people my "views" as some here have, but attack me for having my views then game on.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    I also show up at the CPAT testing, looking at ones who are lolligaging around, ones that show up in a full beard and what not. Even had one guy show up all "in the hood" with his underwear exposed. I looked at the chief and said "how ya' going to buy a uniform to fit that?"

    You know everyone gets wrapped up in a "freedom of speach" thing in the fire service. It has been proven recently in court, while on duty the "freedom" of speach is VERY limited. To be quite honest, I could care less what someone is trying to say in their body art, to me it makes me feel as if I am having to look at a book I don't want to look at. My two are simple and hidden on my upper arms, one is a Maltese cross, the other is a fire scene tribute to my grandfather that was a chief in my dept earlier. Both are hidden and in a short sleeve shirt no one knows any difference. I don't stand on my soap box about the issue and tell people my "views" as some here have, but attack me for having my views then game on.
    I read that you had ink, I understand where you're coming from, we just have a difference of opinion. I say as long as it isn't a naked lady, swastika, brass knuckles, etc. then it should be let go, as long as the candidate is strong in other areas. If you're at the CPAT and see some guy out there busting his ***, friendly, well put together, and confident, to write him off because of some non-offensive visible tattoos is...to put it lightly....ridiculous. And at the same time, your loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    I read that you had ink, I understand where you're coming from, we just have a difference of opinion. I say as long as it isn't a naked lady, swastika, brass knuckles, etc. then it should be let go, as long as the candidate is strong in other areas. If you're at the CPAT and see some guy out there busting his ***, friendly, well put together, and confident, to write him off because of some non-offensive visible tattoos is...to put it lightly....ridiculous. And at the same time, your loss.
    Unfortunately this is not a diplomatic process where you get to cast a vote. Their are case studies where public safety employees were ordered to cover up, challenged it in court and lost. Some departments may enforce it over others. Bottom line, if you want change in your agency, then I suggest you start with a proposal. Craft up a policy that is acceptable to both the labor group and management. Your ethics or values are going to be different than others, so you have to measure it to the Departments core values, and what is "acceptable". It's about uniformity and appearance. This isn't a private enterprise, it's the public sector. What do you tell the next group that wants to dye their hair rainbow colors and wear body piercings to express who they are. Where do you draw the line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    . What do you tell the next group that wants to dye their hair rainbow colors and wear body piercings to express who they are. Where do you draw the line?
    When it's offensive (per social norms, of which most tattoos no longer are) or if it hinders the job. Plain and simple.

    This is the older culture once again letting fear of change dictate their lives and policies. This is no different then when any social norms change and the older generations dig in their heels and resist.

    The foxes guarding the henhouses fear anything new or different. Fact is most of the tattoos people have that can be seen are innocuous.

    I also have to ask the person that made the comment about being 'in the hood' (which is a laughable comment) did they guy pass the CPAT? Isn't that what it's there for, to determine physical standards, and not a fashion show?

    Makes me wonder why most departments are going to out sourcing the CPAT, i thought i was due to cost, but i'm starting to wonder if its to avoid hiring lawsuits because of idiotic fire fighters harassing candidates based on the way they are dressed. If you are going to enforce dress codes above and beyond the CPAT reqs you should let the candidates know.

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    PETE, good luck in your plight. Obviously someone in your department doesn't feel the same way as you do. The clip is an interview with a Captain from LAFD about 2 years ago.

    http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.a...f-885f98684b83

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    When it's offensive (per social norms, of which most tattoos no longer are) or if it hinders the job. Plain and simple.

    This is the older culture once again letting fear of change dictate their lives and policies. This is no different then when any social norms change and the older generations dig in their heels and resist.

    The foxes guarding the henhouses fear anything new or different. Fact is most of the tattoos people have that can be seen are innocuous.

    I also have to ask the person that made the comment about being 'in the hood' (which is a laughable comment) did they guy pass the CPAT? Isn't that what it's there for, to determine physical standards, and not a fashion show?

    Makes me wonder why most departments are going to out sourcing the CPAT, i thought i was due to cost, but i'm starting to wonder if its to avoid hiring lawsuits because of idiotic fire fighters harassing candidates based on the way they are dressed. If you are going to enforce dress codes above and beyond the CPAT reqs you should let the candidates know.
    Maybe the ink has clouded your comprehension. I am the one talking about being at a CPAT test, and at NO time did I ever say ANYTHING to a person with WHATEVER kind of ink on their arms and necks. There was no harassment. Next time before you quote, get it right.

    Bab - I looked at the article and to be quite honest, I think it is a good idea on LA's policy. The Tattoo on the Captain's neck to me in our line of work are offensive. If he wanted to wear it on a shirt, off duty, that is his business. To have it as a permanent fixture where it is visible every day, to be frank, it is in bad taste
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    PETE, good luck in your plight. Obviously someone in your department doesn't feel the same way as you do. The clip is an interview with a Captain from LAFD about 2 years ago.

    http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.a...f-885f98684b83
    Not a single complaint. His tattoo's are offensive? Maybe a tad excessive, but he made Captain in 10 years, which, to me, knocks down any stigmatism against his ink.

    This country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******. Stop crying and mind your own business. If non-offensive tattoos offend you(ex. Just because you can see them), I don't know how you've survived in a firehouse. Willing to bet you're "that guy".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    Not a single complaint. His tattoo's are offensive? Maybe a tad excessive, but he made Captain in 10 years, which, to me, knocks down any stigmatism against his ink.

    This country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******. Stop crying and mind your own business. If non-offensive tattoos offend you(ex. Just because you can see them), I don't know how you've survived in a firehouse. Willing to bet you're "that guy".
    I'll complain, they are offensive to me to promote death with the skulls in our line of work. Unless I am wrong skulls = death, sure aint life. Send me a form I will fill it out
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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