1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    I'll complain, they are offensive to me
    News flash: There is no fundamental right not to be offended.

    Unless I am wrong skulls = death, sure aint life.
    You're wrong. Skulls = skulls. Any other interpretation is subjective.

    BTW, so nice to know you're so anxious to throw a Brother under the bus.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    News flash: There is no fundamental right not to be offended.



    You're wrong. Skulls = skulls. Any other interpretation is subjective.

    BTW, so nice to know you're so anxious to throw a Brother under the bus.
    I was not trying to throw a brother under the bus. It was a statement or point, just because no one says it does not make it less offensive. My point about the skulls was just that, subjective. To say I am wrong makes you just the same in your own words, wrong. I feel having skulls on your neck is offensive, my view on the issue, and I am saying that as a person with ink on both arms.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    Not a single complaint. His tattoo's are offensive? Maybe a tad excessive, but he made Captain in 10 years, which, to me, knocks down any stigmatism against his ink.

    This country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******. Stop crying and mind your own business. If non-offensive tattoos offend you(ex. Just because you can see them), I don't know how you've survived in a firehouse. Willing to bet you're "that guy".
    You kinda lost me here buddy. I spent over a decade as a Union President dealing with far more serious issues than someone having tattoo's, and my point to Pete is if he really has an issue with it in his department, then take the right steps to try to effect change. . As a line BC (still in the union) I have firefighters and captains that have tattoos. Our city is diverse with over 140 different spoken languages, so culture ranges all over the field here.

    As I read your response "as this country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******", I wonder what you consider as uptight?, other than a local agency that has set a policy on tat's. Over my 35 years I have worked with vets from previous wars when I first was hired on that had tat's, or crews that got them after a memorable event, etc... so I dont know where you got that tattoo's are offensive to me, especially when you say "non offensive" tattoos. So, in short, someone's quest for tatoo's to be accepted no matter how many they have or display, or someone who disagree's with it, certainly is not what will make or break you in the fire service, or as you say survive in the firehouse. Doing your job (as you are paid to do) and if you believe change is needed, then effecting change for the right reason is what you do, rather than being the coffee table bloater who does nothing but always offers an opinion, is what I kinda sense in your response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    You kinda lost me here buddy. I spent over a decade as a Union President dealing with far more serious issues than someone having tattoo's, and my point to Pete is if he really has an issue with it in his department, then take the right steps to try to effect change. . As a line BC (still in the union) I have firefighters and captains that have tattoos. Our city is diverse with over 140 different spoken languages, so culture ranges all over the field here.

    As I read your response "as this country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******", I wonder what you consider as uptight?, other than a local agency that has set a policy on tat's. Over my 35 years I have worked with vets from previous wars when I first was hired on that had tat's, or crews that got them after a memorable event, etc... so I dont know where you got that tattoo's are offensive to me, especially when you say "non offensive" tattoos. So, in short, someone's quest for tatoo's to be accepted no matter how many they have or display, or someone who disagree's with it, certainly is not what will make or break you in the fire service, or as you say survive in the firehouse. Doing your job (as you are paid to do) and if you believe change is needed, then effecting change for the right reason is what you do, rather than being the coffee table bloater who does nothing but always offers an opinion, is what I kinda sense in your response.
    Sorry big guy was just quoting the video link, nothing else had to do with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    Sorry big guy was just quoting the video link, nothing else had to do with you.
    My apologees.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    You kinda lost me here buddy. I spent over a decade as a Union President dealing with far more serious issues than someone having tattoo's, and my point to Pete is if he really has an issue with it in his department, then take the right steps to try to effect change. . As a line BC (still in the union) I have firefighters and captains that have tattoos. Our city is diverse with over 140 different spoken languages, so culture ranges all over the field here.

    As I read your response "as this country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******", I wonder what you consider as uptight?, other than a local agency that has set a policy on tat's. Over my 35 years I have worked with vets from previous wars when I first was hired on that had tat's, or crews that got them after a memorable event, etc... so I dont know where you got that tattoo's are offensive to me, especially when you say "non offensive" tattoos. So, in short, someone's quest for tatoo's to be accepted no matter how many they have or display, or someone who disagree's with it, certainly is not what will make or break you in the fire service, or as you say survive in the firehouse. Doing your job (as you are paid to do) and if you believe change is needed, then effecting change for the right reason is what you do, rather than being the coffee table bloater who does nothing but always offers an opinion, is what I kinda sense in your response.
    No where i've worked has had issue with tattoos. Outside of the clearly stated military policy when i was in, no one has ever said anything about any of my tattoos.
    I found it shocking when LA instituted the policy about covering up (and the measures some of the guys were having to go through to cover up the neck tats) as they are traditionally considered a more liberal city.

    I don't know who mentioned it, but it is funny when someone brought up 'that guy'. I've found many on the board to fall into that category.
    Unfortunately many times 'that guy' gets promoted due to good testing, connections, politics, ect. Rarely do you get a 'real' fire fighter's Chief in the position to make policy, but when you do you usually have a department that functions well and has outstanding moral (i.e. Bruno). Issues like tattoos, uniform wear, dress and appearance rarely come up, and the departments are usually very well respected.

    It's amazing that people don't see the correlation between letting the little things like this go and a department that runs more smoothly. When any organization gets bogged down with minutiae it just doesn't run as efficiently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    Unfortunately many times 'that guy' gets promoted due to good testing, connections, politics, ect. Rarely do you get a 'real' fire fighter's Chief in the position to make policy, but when you do you usually have a department that functions well and has outstanding moral (i.e. Bruno). Issues like tattoos, uniform wear, dress and appearance rarely come up, and the departments are usually very well respected.
    From Phoenix FD SOP

    TATTOOS/PIERCINGS
    While on duty, tattoos will only be displayed on the arms and legs while in uniform. No other visibletattoos are authorized. The display of ANY unprofessional or offensive tattoo or brand (nudity or
    violence, sexually explicit or vulgar art, words, phrases; profane language, symbols to incite negative
    reactions, initials or acronyms that represent criminal or oppressive organizations) regardless of its
    location, while members are in uniform, is prohibited

    No Neck,No Hands. Who determines offensive? A symbol to incite a negative reaction. Man even if I had my shirt on the SS on my back (just kidding) will gewt me introuble?

    Even here. in the great state of Bruno one might want to send in a art plan and have it signed off on. Oh, and there is more to the policy just on uniforms too.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    I have one but it isn't seen unless I undress and then and only then would be seen by females only!

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    All of my other posts stated that they should be in good taste. But if a guy wants to get a full sleeve he should be able to.
    I still don't understand the beef with the hands and neck, but that's slowly changing as well.
    I'll just wait you guys out. By the time i'm your age this will be a non issue, and hopefully we will have addressed some of the more important things that trouble our chosen profession

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    All of my other posts stated that they should be in good taste. But if a guy wants to get a full sleeve he should be able to.
    I still don't understand the beef with the hands and neck, but that's slowly changing as well.
    I'll just wait you guys out. By the time i'm your age this will be a non issue, and hopefully we will have addressed some of the more important things that trouble our chosen profession
    I can't wait until we have full face tattoos. I guess we'll have to wait until your children are "our age".
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #61
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    Ink= dirtbag

    There, that sould get things rolling.......
    Bring enough hose.

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    I know several folks that have full face tattoos. Most are nice guys/girls. What's your point?

    And again, when my child (I only have one) is your age, i hope the issues of bigotry, obesity, alcoholism, and mental health care stigmas have been addressed/fixed by the fire service.

    The issue of tattoos will be long gone and dead by the time he's as old and bitter as you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    I know several folks that have full face tattoos. Most are nice guys/girls. What's your point?

    And again, when my child (I only have one) is your age, i hope the issues of bigotry, obesity, alcoholism, and mental health care stigmas have been addressed/fixed by the fire service.

    The issue of tattoos will be long gone and dead by the time he's as old and bitter as you.
    I'm not old AND bitter.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    I have no tats, know a few firefighters on my FD who do...

    Brothers are being used as pawns in political games, getting laid off, being denied benefits, dying from what they did in response to 911...

    and here we are... arguing over tattoos.

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot people....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I gotta agree with Gonzo on this one. We have our city trying to bust us up n break our backs but we keep the faith n fight the good fight. These are hard times for the fire service. Houses are being shut down, guys are getting laid off, old boys are comming down with some bad stuff. That should be our main concern. Yes I rock the tats. I rock full sleeves and on my hands n fingers. All have personal meaning ie children, family crest, spouce, mom, Navy(no fire related tats). Not one is offensive and 100% of my pts/John Q. Public comment on them in a positive manner. when I pass Smoke Diver and receive my number, Im tattooing it across my throat ( too much? yeah, probably, but I earned those numbers through blood,sweat, and tears just like I did all my other tats). Im Latino and work in a high tourist area that has a large influx of people from all cultures and backgrounds ie Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Speedweeks, Spring Break, BCR, etc,etc. I judge my brothers by what they do on the fireground and on calls. Times are changing my friends. Yes we must be/act proffesional at all times but we cant start judging people like this. Whats next? Racism/gender is already an issue in the firehouse. Lets not add to the fire. When i got on the job 12 years ago, some of the smoothest operators were all tatted out. Shoot, we are tatted out from the dept chief down to the freshest recruit.

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    When you go to an interview with a suit and tie how does the Chief know what kind of ink you have anyway? Hard for this to be an issue in an interview if he doesn't know about it. It's such a non issue...leave people alone and generally they will bust their *****es for you and do a great job. Micromanagement suck I guess one day we'll get our chance to do it better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    Marines: No sleeves, half sleeves, nothing large, not offensive. The most restrictive, but the Marines have a culture that promotes the inking of 'USMC' or the 'EGA' on your body.
    The Marine Corps does NOT have a culture that promotes the inking of anything on one's body. Any unit or leader that does is considered to be hazing its Marines. The last three Commandants have in fact discouraged tattoos. There is no promotion of tattoos in the Marine Corps, there is only acceptance of them within the rules. I did my service with zero tattoos, and the most decorated Marine I know did the same, although some of his fellow MOH recipients do have tattoos.

    A tattoo is a personal expression, and as such should be kept personal while in uniform, which translates to hidden. No one should be fired over a new tattoo policy that conflicts with existing tattoos, a grandfather clause should always be instituted, but I see no problem with restricting new hires to only unseen ink.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    The Marine Corps does NOT have a culture that promotes the inking of anything on one's body. Any unit or leader that does is considered to be hazing its Marines. The last three Commandants have in fact discouraged tattoos. There is no promotion of tattoos in the Marine Corps, there is only acceptance of them within the rules. I did my service with zero tattoos, and the most decorated Marine I know did the same, although some of his fellow MOH recipients do have tattoos.

    A tattoo is a personal expression, and as such should be kept personal while in uniform, which translates to hidden. No one should be fired over a new tattoo policy that conflicts with existing tattoos, a grandfather clause should always be instituted, but I see no problem with restricting new hires to only unseen ink.
    Ha, well, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Every Marine, and I mean every one of them that i've ever worked with, known, been related to, or fought with had either a USMC or EGA somewhere on their person. If not both.

    I'm not sure if this is a CYA reply for the Corps, or if you really believe it, but you should do an informal survey in your rifle company/wing (I don't know your MOS) and see how many have their big gun club tattoo, I'd be willing to bet at least 80% have them.

    And if you don't think the USMC, Navy, and Army have kept the tattoo culture alive and well because of the military's culture, you need to brush up on your history. I'd start with Sailor Jerry, and move to the navy/marines in japan.

    Also, some interesting reads:

    http://www.nj.com/war/ledger/index.s.../0401iraq.html

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Tattoos-in...tary&id=518623

    http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...en-t34994.html

    http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured...hanistan/1635/

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    Ha, well, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Every Marine, and I mean every one of them that i've ever worked with, known, been related to, or fought with had either a USMC or EGA somewhere on their person. If not both.

    I'm not sure if this is a CYA reply for the Corps, or if you really believe it, but you should do an informal survey in your rifle company/wing (I don't know your MOS) and see how many have their big gun club tattoo, I'd be willing to bet at least 80% have them.

    And if you don't think the USMC, Navy, and Army have kept the tattoo culture alive and well because of the military's culture, you need to brush up on your history. I'd start with Sailor Jerry, and move to the navy/marines in japan.

    Also, some interesting reads:

    http://www.nj.com/war/ledger/index.s.../0401iraq.html

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Tattoos-in...tary&id=518623

    http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...en-t34994.html

    http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured...hanistan/1635/
    Any Marine encouraging a subordinate to get a tattoo for traditions sake or the sake of the unit is engageing in hazeing, it is as simple as that. At best I would say 20% of my platoon had USMC tattoos (I can tell you are a Boot by your use of the recently refered to "EGA" ), they either had the USMC initials, the Marine Corps Emblem, or a bulldog, but in all but one case they got it while in MOS school, not once out in the fleet where they really earned the title. Of the older Marine enlisted and officers that I work with today, I would say it is about the same, 20%. Even after Desert Storm, our MEB's Recon Company did not even sport much Marine Corps ink, and those guys were in the ***** more than any other unit in the Corps out there. What they did have tattooed was their dog/id tag info under their arm near the arm pit, which might actually be a good idea for firefighting as well. Due to the recent fad in popular culture of getting tattoos, I will say that there is probably an uptick in ink on our OEF and OIF veterans, but still probably only in the 50-55% range. It would be interesting for Navy Medicine to start tracking the percentages.
    The Marine Corps takes a conservative approach to personal appearance. Uniform regulations stress that personal appearance is to be conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with the Marine Corps. No eccentricities in dress or appearance are permitted because they detract from uniformity and team identity.

    Marines are prohibited from:

    a. Tattoos or brands on the head and neck.

    b. Sleeve Tattoos. A sleeve tattoo is a very large tattoo, or a collection of smaller tattoos, that covers or almost covers a person's entire arm or leg.

    c. Half-sleeve or quarter sleeve tattoos that are visible to the eye when wearing standard PT Gear (T-shirt and shorts). A half-sleeve or quarter-sleeve tattoo is defined as a very large tattoo or collection of smaller tattoos that covers, or almost covers the entire portion of an army or leg above or below the elbow or knee.

    d. Tattoos or brands that are prejudicial to good order, discipline and morale, or are of a nature to bring discredit upon the Marine Corps. These may include, but are not limited to, any tattoo that is sexist, racist, vulgar, anti-american, anti-social, gang related, or extremist group or organization related.
    Tattoos are no more part of the Marine Corps culture than hooking up with fat girls at the E-club or getting DUI's. Sure some Jar Heads do it, but all three are usually caused by alcohol and are often deeply regretted after further contemplation.

    But, simply put, as the Marine Corps has now codified, they are individual expressions and have no place being seen in uniform, should that be Marine Corps Utilites or a Firefighter's Station Gear.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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