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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    All this "professional look" talk is bull in my opinion. As a whole, if a department has a good reputation in the community, who cares what the patient thinks of the firefighters. What are they going to do, write a letter? I did my time in the military, got my tattoos, and now I'm here. The only thing that should be controlled is offensive tattoos.

    Things change, and if others can't get on board with that then they should just keep their mouth shut until they don't have to worry about it anymore. These people spent time and money to get into a career of PUBLIC SERVICE, any time of the day or night, bringing you to the hospital because you have a headache at 3am, going into burning buildings to bring you out, and you can't let them live the way they want to live? Any kind of person that does care if a firefighter or cop has a tattoo, even if you take that away, will find something else to complain about. If anything, you show up with tattoos, take good care of them, and maybe help change their perception. Not that anyone should care if they do, but at the least they might think twice before judging someone because of ink on their skin or any other crap reason to be prejudiced.

    So, calling me prejudiced? I have been inked twice, but in a duty uniform you cant see anything. Still alone, if I were to see some one with full sleeves and crap going on in a interview setting, one word comes to mind..... NEXT. Yes I have the right to my opinion, I have spent 24yrs in the fire service and in a position now to help shape my departments future.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    So, calling me prejudiced? I have been inked twice, but in a duty uniform you cant see anything. Still alone, if I were to see some one with full sleeves and crap going on in a interview setting, one word comes to mind..... NEXT. Yes I have the right to my opinion, I have spent 24yrs in the fire service and in a position now to help shape my departments future.
    From Websters:

    a : (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

    According to this, I suppose so. I didn't define the word. I agree, if you see sleeves in an interview, NEXT, I can't imagine an interview setting where you could see sleeves. Unless that person was severely, unprofessionally underdressed.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    From Websters:

    a : (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge Did you not read above where I have been inked? b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

    According to this, I suppose so. I didn't define the word. I agree, if you see sleeves in an interview, NEXT, I can't imagine an interview setting where you could see sleeves. Unless that person was severely, unprofessionally underdressed.
    I also show up at the CPAT testing, looking at ones who are lolligaging around, ones that show up in a full beard and what not. Even had one guy show up all "in the hood" with his underwear exposed. I looked at the chief and said "how ya' going to buy a uniform to fit that?"

    You know everyone gets wrapped up in a "freedom of speach" thing in the fire service. It has been proven recently in court, while on duty the "freedom" of speach is VERY limited. To be quite honest, I could care less what someone is trying to say in their body art, to me it makes me feel as if I am having to look at a book I don't want to look at. My two are simple and hidden on my upper arms, one is a Maltese cross, the other is a fire scene tribute to my grandfather that was a chief in my dept earlier. Both are hidden and in a short sleeve shirt no one knows any difference. I don't stand on my soap box about the issue and tell people my "views" as some here have, but attack me for having my views then game on.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    I also show up at the CPAT testing, looking at ones who are lolligaging around, ones that show up in a full beard and what not. Even had one guy show up all "in the hood" with his underwear exposed. I looked at the chief and said "how ya' going to buy a uniform to fit that?"

    You know everyone gets wrapped up in a "freedom of speach" thing in the fire service. It has been proven recently in court, while on duty the "freedom" of speach is VERY limited. To be quite honest, I could care less what someone is trying to say in their body art, to me it makes me feel as if I am having to look at a book I don't want to look at. My two are simple and hidden on my upper arms, one is a Maltese cross, the other is a fire scene tribute to my grandfather that was a chief in my dept earlier. Both are hidden and in a short sleeve shirt no one knows any difference. I don't stand on my soap box about the issue and tell people my "views" as some here have, but attack me for having my views then game on.
    I read that you had ink, I understand where you're coming from, we just have a difference of opinion. I say as long as it isn't a naked lady, swastika, brass knuckles, etc. then it should be let go, as long as the candidate is strong in other areas. If you're at the CPAT and see some guy out there busting his ***, friendly, well put together, and confident, to write him off because of some non-offensive visible tattoos is...to put it lightly....ridiculous. And at the same time, your loss.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    I read that you had ink, I understand where you're coming from, we just have a difference of opinion. I say as long as it isn't a naked lady, swastika, brass knuckles, etc. then it should be let go, as long as the candidate is strong in other areas. If you're at the CPAT and see some guy out there busting his ***, friendly, well put together, and confident, to write him off because of some non-offensive visible tattoos is...to put it lightly....ridiculous. And at the same time, your loss.
    Unfortunately this is not a diplomatic process where you get to cast a vote. Their are case studies where public safety employees were ordered to cover up, challenged it in court and lost. Some departments may enforce it over others. Bottom line, if you want change in your agency, then I suggest you start with a proposal. Craft up a policy that is acceptable to both the labor group and management. Your ethics or values are going to be different than others, so you have to measure it to the Departments core values, and what is "acceptable". It's about uniformity and appearance. This isn't a private enterprise, it's the public sector. What do you tell the next group that wants to dye their hair rainbow colors and wear body piercings to express who they are. Where do you draw the line?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    . What do you tell the next group that wants to dye their hair rainbow colors and wear body piercings to express who they are. Where do you draw the line?
    When it's offensive (per social norms, of which most tattoos no longer are) or if it hinders the job. Plain and simple.

    This is the older culture once again letting fear of change dictate their lives and policies. This is no different then when any social norms change and the older generations dig in their heels and resist.

    The foxes guarding the henhouses fear anything new or different. Fact is most of the tattoos people have that can be seen are innocuous.

    I also have to ask the person that made the comment about being 'in the hood' (which is a laughable comment) did they guy pass the CPAT? Isn't that what it's there for, to determine physical standards, and not a fashion show?

    Makes me wonder why most departments are going to out sourcing the CPAT, i thought i was due to cost, but i'm starting to wonder if its to avoid hiring lawsuits because of idiotic fire fighters harassing candidates based on the way they are dressed. If you are going to enforce dress codes above and beyond the CPAT reqs you should let the candidates know.

  7. #47
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    PETE, good luck in your plight. Obviously someone in your department doesn't feel the same way as you do. The clip is an interview with a Captain from LAFD about 2 years ago.

    http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.a...f-885f98684b83

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    When it's offensive (per social norms, of which most tattoos no longer are) or if it hinders the job. Plain and simple.

    This is the older culture once again letting fear of change dictate their lives and policies. This is no different then when any social norms change and the older generations dig in their heels and resist.

    The foxes guarding the henhouses fear anything new or different. Fact is most of the tattoos people have that can be seen are innocuous.

    I also have to ask the person that made the comment about being 'in the hood' (which is a laughable comment) did they guy pass the CPAT? Isn't that what it's there for, to determine physical standards, and not a fashion show?

    Makes me wonder why most departments are going to out sourcing the CPAT, i thought i was due to cost, but i'm starting to wonder if its to avoid hiring lawsuits because of idiotic fire fighters harassing candidates based on the way they are dressed. If you are going to enforce dress codes above and beyond the CPAT reqs you should let the candidates know.
    Maybe the ink has clouded your comprehension. I am the one talking about being at a CPAT test, and at NO time did I ever say ANYTHING to a person with WHATEVER kind of ink on their arms and necks. There was no harassment. Next time before you quote, get it right.

    Bab - I looked at the article and to be quite honest, I think it is a good idea on LA's policy. The Tattoo on the Captain's neck to me in our line of work are offensive. If he wanted to wear it on a shirt, off duty, that is his business. To have it as a permanent fixture where it is visible every day, to be frank, it is in bad taste
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    PETE, good luck in your plight. Obviously someone in your department doesn't feel the same way as you do. The clip is an interview with a Captain from LAFD about 2 years ago.

    http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.a...f-885f98684b83
    Not a single complaint. His tattoo's are offensive? Maybe a tad excessive, but he made Captain in 10 years, which, to me, knocks down any stigmatism against his ink.

    This country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******. Stop crying and mind your own business. If non-offensive tattoos offend you(ex. Just because you can see them), I don't know how you've survived in a firehouse. Willing to bet you're "that guy".

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    Not a single complaint. His tattoo's are offensive? Maybe a tad excessive, but he made Captain in 10 years, which, to me, knocks down any stigmatism against his ink.

    This country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******. Stop crying and mind your own business. If non-offensive tattoos offend you(ex. Just because you can see them), I don't know how you've survived in a firehouse. Willing to bet you're "that guy".
    I'll complain, they are offensive to me to promote death with the skulls in our line of work. Unless I am wrong skulls = death, sure aint life. Send me a form I will fill it out
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    I'll complain, they are offensive to me
    News flash: There is no fundamental right not to be offended.

    Unless I am wrong skulls = death, sure aint life.
    You're wrong. Skulls = skulls. Any other interpretation is subjective.

    BTW, so nice to know you're so anxious to throw a Brother under the bus.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    News flash: There is no fundamental right not to be offended.



    You're wrong. Skulls = skulls. Any other interpretation is subjective.

    BTW, so nice to know you're so anxious to throw a Brother under the bus.
    I was not trying to throw a brother under the bus. It was a statement or point, just because no one says it does not make it less offensive. My point about the skulls was just that, subjective. To say I am wrong makes you just the same in your own words, wrong. I feel having skulls on your neck is offensive, my view on the issue, and I am saying that as a person with ink on both arms.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    Not a single complaint. His tattoo's are offensive? Maybe a tad excessive, but he made Captain in 10 years, which, to me, knocks down any stigmatism against his ink.

    This country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******. Stop crying and mind your own business. If non-offensive tattoos offend you(ex. Just because you can see them), I don't know how you've survived in a firehouse. Willing to bet you're "that guy".
    You kinda lost me here buddy. I spent over a decade as a Union President dealing with far more serious issues than someone having tattoo's, and my point to Pete is if he really has an issue with it in his department, then take the right steps to try to effect change. . As a line BC (still in the union) I have firefighters and captains that have tattoos. Our city is diverse with over 140 different spoken languages, so culture ranges all over the field here.

    As I read your response "as this country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******", I wonder what you consider as uptight?, other than a local agency that has set a policy on tat's. Over my 35 years I have worked with vets from previous wars when I first was hired on that had tat's, or crews that got them after a memorable event, etc... so I dont know where you got that tattoo's are offensive to me, especially when you say "non offensive" tattoos. So, in short, someone's quest for tatoo's to be accepted no matter how many they have or display, or someone who disagree's with it, certainly is not what will make or break you in the fire service, or as you say survive in the firehouse. Doing your job (as you are paid to do) and if you believe change is needed, then effecting change for the right reason is what you do, rather than being the coffee table bloater who does nothing but always offers an opinion, is what I kinda sense in your response.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    You kinda lost me here buddy. I spent over a decade as a Union President dealing with far more serious issues than someone having tattoo's, and my point to Pete is if he really has an issue with it in his department, then take the right steps to try to effect change. . As a line BC (still in the union) I have firefighters and captains that have tattoos. Our city is diverse with over 140 different spoken languages, so culture ranges all over the field here.

    As I read your response "as this country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******", I wonder what you consider as uptight?, other than a local agency that has set a policy on tat's. Over my 35 years I have worked with vets from previous wars when I first was hired on that had tat's, or crews that got them after a memorable event, etc... so I dont know where you got that tattoo's are offensive to me, especially when you say "non offensive" tattoos. So, in short, someone's quest for tatoo's to be accepted no matter how many they have or display, or someone who disagree's with it, certainly is not what will make or break you in the fire service, or as you say survive in the firehouse. Doing your job (as you are paid to do) and if you believe change is needed, then effecting change for the right reason is what you do, rather than being the coffee table bloater who does nothing but always offers an opinion, is what I kinda sense in your response.
    Sorry big guy was just quoting the video link, nothing else had to do with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky2 View Post
    Sorry big guy was just quoting the video link, nothing else had to do with you.
    My apologees.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by babcusar5 View Post
    You kinda lost me here buddy. I spent over a decade as a Union President dealing with far more serious issues than someone having tattoo's, and my point to Pete is if he really has an issue with it in his department, then take the right steps to try to effect change. . As a line BC (still in the union) I have firefighters and captains that have tattoos. Our city is diverse with over 140 different spoken languages, so culture ranges all over the field here.

    As I read your response "as this country is overflowing with way too many uptight ******", I wonder what you consider as uptight?, other than a local agency that has set a policy on tat's. Over my 35 years I have worked with vets from previous wars when I first was hired on that had tat's, or crews that got them after a memorable event, etc... so I dont know where you got that tattoo's are offensive to me, especially when you say "non offensive" tattoos. So, in short, someone's quest for tatoo's to be accepted no matter how many they have or display, or someone who disagree's with it, certainly is not what will make or break you in the fire service, or as you say survive in the firehouse. Doing your job (as you are paid to do) and if you believe change is needed, then effecting change for the right reason is what you do, rather than being the coffee table bloater who does nothing but always offers an opinion, is what I kinda sense in your response.
    No where i've worked has had issue with tattoos. Outside of the clearly stated military policy when i was in, no one has ever said anything about any of my tattoos.
    I found it shocking when LA instituted the policy about covering up (and the measures some of the guys were having to go through to cover up the neck tats) as they are traditionally considered a more liberal city.

    I don't know who mentioned it, but it is funny when someone brought up 'that guy'. I've found many on the board to fall into that category.
    Unfortunately many times 'that guy' gets promoted due to good testing, connections, politics, ect. Rarely do you get a 'real' fire fighter's Chief in the position to make policy, but when you do you usually have a department that functions well and has outstanding moral (i.e. Bruno). Issues like tattoos, uniform wear, dress and appearance rarely come up, and the departments are usually very well respected.

    It's amazing that people don't see the correlation between letting the little things like this go and a department that runs more smoothly. When any organization gets bogged down with minutiae it just doesn't run as efficiently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    Unfortunately many times 'that guy' gets promoted due to good testing, connections, politics, ect. Rarely do you get a 'real' fire fighter's Chief in the position to make policy, but when you do you usually have a department that functions well and has outstanding moral (i.e. Bruno). Issues like tattoos, uniform wear, dress and appearance rarely come up, and the departments are usually very well respected.
    From Phoenix FD SOP

    TATTOOS/PIERCINGS
    While on duty, tattoos will only be displayed on the arms and legs while in uniform. No other visibletattoos are authorized. The display of ANY unprofessional or offensive tattoo or brand (nudity or
    violence, sexually explicit or vulgar art, words, phrases; profane language, symbols to incite negative
    reactions, initials or acronyms that represent criminal or oppressive organizations) regardless of its
    location, while members are in uniform, is prohibited

    No Neck,No Hands. Who determines offensive? A symbol to incite a negative reaction. Man even if I had my shirt on the SS on my back (just kidding) will gewt me introuble?

    Even here. in the great state of Bruno one might want to send in a art plan and have it signed off on. Oh, and there is more to the policy just on uniforms too.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  18. #58
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    I have one but it isn't seen unless I undress and then and only then would be seen by females only!

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  19. #59
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    All of my other posts stated that they should be in good taste. But if a guy wants to get a full sleeve he should be able to.
    I still don't understand the beef with the hands and neck, but that's slowly changing as well.
    I'll just wait you guys out. By the time i'm your age this will be a non issue, and hopefully we will have addressed some of the more important things that trouble our chosen profession

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterbound View Post
    All of my other posts stated that they should be in good taste. But if a guy wants to get a full sleeve he should be able to.
    I still don't understand the beef with the hands and neck, but that's slowly changing as well.
    I'll just wait you guys out. By the time i'm your age this will be a non issue, and hopefully we will have addressed some of the more important things that trouble our chosen profession
    I can't wait until we have full face tattoos. I guess we'll have to wait until your children are "our age".
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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