Closed Thread
Page 1 of 8 1234 ... Last
  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default Why I Love Unions ... Another reason.

    Collective Bargaining Could Become Law
    The initiative will require employers of career firefighters to meet and discuss issues.

    By Susan Nicol Kyle -

    Firehouse.com News

    Collective bargaining for all of the nation's public safety workers is a step closer to becoming law.

    The measure -- that's been in the works for about 16 years -- has been included in the House Supplemental Appropriations Bill.

    IAFF and FOP officials are working closely with legislators to insure that the amendments presented are acceptable, and will gain the necessary votes.

    "We've had bi-partisan support in the past, and we still do," said Barry Kasinitz, IAFF director of government affairs.

    He sees the inclusion of the measure in a bill that funds the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and relief from the massive oil leak as the perfect vehicle to move it through.

    Supplemental appropriations -- considered as a must pass bill -- is expected to be concluded before members of Congress take their month-long August recess.

    Kasinitz said the collective bargaining initiative will require employers of career firefighters, EMS personnel, police officers and other public safety to meet and discuss issues.

    He was quick to dispel information that the measure is a quiet maneuver to eliminate volunteer fire departments. "There is nothing here that in any way hinders the volunteer fire service," Kasinitz said.

    Further, he said if career firefighters want a union, they should be able to form one.

    "We are not doing this to increase the number of career firefighters or the number of union members."

    A number of articles and blogs have surfaced accusing the IAFF of trying to bolster their ranks and snuffing out volunteers across the country.

    Kasinitz vows that's not the case. He said the measure will enable career public safety officers to work in more safe environments and address other issues with their employers.

    The NVFC is remaining neutral on the bill.

    The organization took the stance after an inclusion that offers job protection for career personnel who want to volunteer when they are off-duty.

    The section reads: "to permit parties in states subject to the regulations and procedures ... to negotiate provisions that would prohibit an employee from engaging in part-time employment or volunteer activities during off-duty hours."

    If the measure is signed into law, unions will not be able to stipulate or negotiate that as a condition of employment, volunteering is not allowed.

    "That protection is very important," said David Finger, NVFC governmental affairs director.

    The proposed legislation does not, however, prevent the IAFF from kicking those who volunteer out of their locals.

    The CFSI is monitoring the legislation as it does with all emergency services-related issues. But, it is not actively involved, explained Bill Webb, CFSI executive director

    More crap.

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,401

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    More crap.
    Yeah, that would really suck if an employer was prevented by contract from forcing, coercing, or otherwise intimidating employees to volunteer on their time off.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Yeah, that would really suck if an employer was prevented by contract from forcing, coercing, or otherwise intimidating employees to volunteer on their time off.
    Read the article. This is referring to allowing unions to kick those out - basically ostracize them - if they volunteer elsewhere.

    The proposed legislation does not, however, prevent the IAFF from kicking those who volunteer out of their locals.


    So basically the legislation says the unions can't negotiate that you can't volunteer elsewhere, but the unions can still kick firefighters out of the union for volunteering elsewhere.

    That's crap.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-13-2010 at 10:54 PM.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    why? The unions should be free to have rules for membership. Its not an unreasonable request, and there are legitimate reasons behind it. Volunteers are great, but if you don't like the rules of the union, don't join it.

  5. #5
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    if you don't like the rules of the union, don't join it.
    It's really not that simple.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It's really not that simple.
    Since I can't comment on states besides NY, you don't have to be in the union to have the job. You also still benefit from the contract that is negotiated for you. So it is that simple.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    why? The unions should be free to have rules for membership. Its not an unreasonable request, and there are legitimate reasons behind it. Volunteers are great, but if you don't like the rules of the union, don't join it.
    You are intitled to your opinion but, unless you know the whole story don't judge. I live in a rural area of KY that on my FD I have made numerous runs by my self in the daytime. I was it for several minutes before help arrived whether it was additional staff from our vfd or mutual aid. Now to my career Fd, we recently formed a local and are hopeing (at least I WAS) hoping for favorable passage and finall a seat at the table in negotations. My career Dept and my VFD have no situation where my IAFF affiliation and my Volunteering would or should be an issue. I would have to say I disagree with the clause and would easily leave my local if requested as my volunteering in my community and protecting my family means more to me.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    389

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It's really not that simple.
    Sure it is. We are a union shop, however if a member chooses to leave the union, he/she is able to do so and remain employed. There is I believe (1) member in this situation out of approximately 2000 members. Whether this is chosen as a political statement, out of disagreement with the rules of union membership, or other reason, it's possible.

    Union dues will still be taken from the member's pay, but are no longer "dues" but rather the administrative fees for certain benefits. These handle certain costs - the union administers our health plan, collective bargaining, and I believe pension, etc. The member will forfeit the right to have union representation at disciplinary hearings, investigations and so on. There are a myriad of other issues to consider, that the member should judiciously weigh prior to making a decision, but ultimately the member CAN make that decision.
    Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LT2387 View Post
    You are intitled to your opinion but, unless you know the whole story don't judge. I live in a rural area of KY that on my FD I have made numerous runs by my self in the daytime. I was it for several minutes before help arrived whether it was additional staff from our vfd or mutual aid. Now to my career Fd, we recently formed a local and are hopeing (at least I WAS) hoping for favorable passage and finall a seat at the table in negotations. My career Dept and my VFD have no situation where my IAFF affiliation and my Volunteering would or should be an issue. I would have to say I disagree with the clause and would easily leave my local if requested as my volunteering in my community and protecting my family means more to me.

    You too are entitled to an opinion, but I doubt that you have the whole story if I don't. So please don't judge until you get the entire story.

    When it comes to cancers and other maladies that can be related to firefighting, how well do you think the conversation with the city is going to be? "This cancer is job related" "Well, you're a volunteer, it could easily be caused by firefighting activities there. Get them to cover it."

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    59

    Default

    Im sorry but its a current IAFF guideline already and not just based on this law.

    Also from a employer stand point, I say it's wrong. If a guy volunteers Id say he is a liability for disability. How about hearing damage or lung problems? If Im a paid employer Id bury it in the guy and win saying it can be proven he volunteered and long-term damage might of came at the cost of his employment elsewhere.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    When it comes to cancers and other maladies that can be related to firefighting, how well do you think the conversation with the city is going to be? "This cancer is job related" "Well, you're a volunteer, it could easily be caused by firefighting activities there. Get them to cover it."
    I am covered by workers comp on my vfd, just like my career. I got injured a few years back and WC even covered the salary missed by my off duty job.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LT2387 View Post
    I am covered by workers comp on my vfd, just like my career. I got injured a few years back and WC even covered the salary missed by my off duty job.
    It sounds like you're trying to use a different situation to explain away my hypothetical. What happened? you got a hurt at a volly fire? well see what happens when its cancers or a career ending injury. There's going to be a lot of fighting back and forth. Seen it happen. If you work for a mid sized city, they probably self insure so they'll put up a fight. Maybe if you work for a small time organization there will be less of a fight, but I doubt it.
    Last edited by nameless; 07-14-2010 at 12:47 AM.

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Posts
    396

    Default

    If you are working part time or being a volly in the city where you live is one thing, but as a former chief in a full-time dept, I didnt like guys working part time in cities where they didnt live. How could I argue at budget time that we are worth X dollars a year with salary and benefits and need a certain number of guys on duty to do the job safely one day and then have people go do the same thing for $15 an hour with 2 guys on duty the next? The cops dont do it and neither should we.
    I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

  14. #14
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    8,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    Since I can't comment on states besides NY, you don't have to be in the union to have the job. You also still benefit from the contract that is negotiated for you. So it is that simple.
    I am not sure about all of the rules. I did however work in a place (in NYS) where you had to be a member of the union in order to work there. Don't join the Union then no job for you.

    What is telling about what a horrible piece of legislation this must be is the fact it can't stand on its own. It had to be attached to a bill that is sure to pass.

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    There are some valid points, however, it should still come down to a personal choice if someone wants to volunteer, without having to be ostracized by the union for making that choice.

    It's still a load of crap.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LT2387 View Post
    I live in a rural area of KY that on my FD I have made numerous runs by my self in the daytime. I was it for several minutes before help arrived whether it was additional staff from our vfd or mutual aid.
    So your volunteering is masking a real issue in your local community? A system where "numerous runs" are covered by a single responder begs for a more permanent solution.

    I'm personally not against volunteering where it has no effect on another local, but it also shouldn't be used to as a method to cover poor public policy and help deny there's real problem. Of course this is only exacerbated by the tanking economy. It's a lose-lose right now. The people can't afford what they need.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post
    If you are working part time or being a volly in the city where you live is one thing, but as a former chief in a full-time dept, I didnt like guys working part time in cities where they didnt live. How could I argue at budget time that we are worth X dollars a year with salary and benefits and need a certain number of guys on duty to do the job safely one day and then have people go do the same thing for $15 an hour with 2 guys on duty the next? The cops dont do it and neither should we.
    That is an outstanding point! The union fights for minimum staffing citing safety reasons, then the membership goes and volunteers in a VFD where proper staffing is not even considered. Sort of kills the Union's position at work, no?

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    That is an outstanding point! The union fights for minimum staffing citing safety reasons, then the membership goes and volunteers in a VFD where proper staffing is not even considered. Sort of kills the Union's position at work, no?
    Minimum staffing isn't considered?

    Then why do departments utilize automatic aid?

    Sorry. The simple fact is a career firefighter should have the right to choose if he wants to volunteer. The should be no consequences if he/she chooses to.

  19. #19
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    Since I can't comment on states besides NY, you don't have to be in the union to have the job. You also still benefit from the contract that is negotiated for you. So it is that simple.
    You still have to pay. So, yes it is more complicated then simply "not joining".
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KCFireguy View Post
    Im sorry but its a current IAFF guideline already and not just based on this law.

    Also from a employer stand point, I say it's wrong. If a guy volunteers Id say he is a liability for disability. How about hearing damage or lung problems? If Im a paid employer Id bury it in the guy and win saying it can be proven he volunteered and long-term damage might of came at the cost of his employment elsewhere.
    If you are covered under presumptive laws...this is a huge problem as you note. With everyone looking to save a dime nowadays I'd think twice before giving someone a reason to deny you a disablity pension.

    FTM-PTB

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    You still have to pay. So, yes it is more complicated then simply "not joining".
    One must pay the adminstrative fee for adminstration of your contract. The bulk of the money a union spends usually falls into this category.

    FTM-PTB

  22. #22
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    One must pay the adminstrative fee for adminstration of your contract. The bulk of the money a union spends usually falls into this category.

    FTM-PTB
    Right, Complicated.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post
    If you are working part time or being a volly in the city where you live is one thing, but as a former chief in a full-time dept, I didnt like guys working part time in cities where they didnt live. How could I argue at budget time that we are worth X dollars a year with salary and benefits and need a certain number of guys on duty to do the job safely one day and then have people go do the same thing for $15 an hour with 2 guys on duty the next? The cops dont do it and neither should we.
    Volunteers volunteer pretty much where they live - it's the nature of the beast.

    We have two career staffed departments in our county - one federal, one municipal. All of the other fire protection is via volunteers. This isn't because the towns with the volunteers are trying to cheap out - it's because the money isn't there to fund full-time paid staff.

    Putting on one four FF staffed engine would easily triple the fire protection portion of our property taxes, and that would be to cover over 100 square miles with a population of about 4000 (year round - in summertime it can approach 10,000).

    With around 250-300 calls a year, there are weeks that we don't go out the door at all. And days when we might go out several times.

    The neighboring townships are similar.

    This is a chiefly rural area. Volunteer firefighters are how we provide the service. So it is in many parts of the country.

    The two IAFF locals at the career departments are tolerant of volunteers - they appear to understand the situation and realize that the volunteers aren't stealing their jobs. If anything, they are providing a benefit to the communities, as many of the union members have served as chief officers in their volunteer departments.

    I can understand the union's stance in areas that are on the cusp of going to career staffing, but methinks there aren't a lot of those, comparatively speaking

    As for volunteering for and getting paid by the same organization - that's not a union issue. That goes to the Fair Labor Standards Act. It was the county-based fire departments in Maryland that learned that lesson the hard way, much to the chagrin of those who wanted to do so. In that case, FFs worked at one station in the county and gladly volunteered at another. That was found to be violation of FLSA.

    Oh - and the cops do do it - posse's, reserves, etc - for no pay, or for a fraction of what the career staff is paid. It's just not as prevalent.
    Last edited by tree68; 07-14-2010 at 08:37 AM.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,682

    Default

    He sees the inclusion of the measure in a bill that funds the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and relief from the massive oil leak as the perfect vehicle to move it through.
    In other words, they know there is not enough support for this bill on it's own. Must be a good reason there is not enough support.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber
    voyager9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    2,007

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    In other words, they know there is not enough support for this bill on it's own. Must be a good reason there is not enough support.
    This is what gets me angry, even ignoring the controversy of the bill. It has NOTHING to do with the legislation it's tied to!

    Tying a Collective Bargaining rider to a "must-pass" defense appropriations bill is BS. Situations like this make me wonder if Presidential Line-Item veto was a good idea.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

Closed Thread
Page 1 of 8 1234 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Fdny List 6019
    By Douseit in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 12346
    Last Post: 07-11-2013, 05:31 PM
  2. Brothers and sisters- WE NEED YOUR HELP
    By CALFFBOU in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 200
    Last Post: 11-16-2005, 01:17 PM
  3. A short love story that men will like.
    By pengman in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-01-2005, 12:09 AM
  4. Feeling the Love....
    By DFanucci in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-07-2004, 08:15 AM
  5. A Ron Moore Love Story
    By 51Truck_K in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-30-2001, 01:37 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register