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    Default Newark new jersey order ferrara pumpers

    EVIS is reporting that the City of Newark New Jersey has ordered Three Ferrara Fire Apparatus Heavy Duty Pumpers. Anyone have any info?

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    I know the original plan was to order two with an add-on for another. Perhaps they decided to order all three now instead. I do not have any specs on the rigs at the moment. There was a lot of difficulty with the bid process, there was even thoughts of a re-bid, and this is how it ended up working out. The order of bidders: (low to high) Crimson, Ferrara, Smeal, Eone, Pierce and Seagrave. Eone & Pierce were very close together, they could be reversed. I don't have my records handy. I am not an official NFD spokesman.

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    If Crimson was low bidder what was wrong with the bid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spec-tec View Post
    EVIS is reporting that the City of Newark New Jersey has ordered Three Ferrara Fire Apparatus Heavy Duty Pumpers. Anyone have any info?
    delete repeated

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    Quote Originally Posted by spec-tec View Post
    EVIS is reporting that the City of Newark New Jersey has ordered Three Ferrara Fire Apparatus Heavy Duty Pumpers. Anyone have any info?
    Didn't know they built them! LOL

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    Seagrave high bid again...imagine that.
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    As I understand it, Crimson was rejected for two major exceptions:
    1. not being completely ISO 9001 certified. I think either the Spartan plant or the Crimson plant is not certified. Not sure which one. They believe they meet that standard but are not actually certified.
    2. For some unknown reason, there is a new clause in the specs that requires the assembly plants for cab/chassis and the body (if different) to be less than 60 miles apart. The spartan plant in Michigan and the crimson plant in S. Dakota exceed that distance. Why that would make a difference in the quality of the assembled vehicle is beyond me. I believe this clause was put in to exclude all of the smaller builders that do not build their own cabs. Thats my opinion of course! As I stated earlier, this was not a well run bid process and it seems there were favorites and non-favorites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomr View Post
    For some unknown reason, there is a new clause in the specs that requires the assembly plants for cab/chassis and the body (if different) to be less than 60 miles apart.
    If Newark was buying a ladder truck, I wonder if their spec would also require the ladder to be built at an assembly plant less than 60 miles from the cab/chassis and body plant(s)? If so, that would throw out Ferrara. I guess if they were favoring Ferrara, they would conveniently drop that clause out of the spec. Ya think?

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    Anything is possible and anything can be changed to suit your needs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomr View Post
    I believe this clause was put in to exclude all of the smaller builders that do not build their own cabs. Thats my opinion of course! As I stated earlier, this was not a well run bid process and it seems there were favorites and non-favorites.
    NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Not in a fire apparatus specification/bid!!!!! That would nevvvvvver happen! Not at all!!!!!! I just find that impossible to believe!
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    Too bad they didn't have Sutphen quote it... plants are all close together and they make all of their own stuff.

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    Im surpried any department would put in the specs that the Chassis and Body cant be built more than 60miles apart. that really limits who can bid on their trucks. Would that detail in the specs pass any legal challanges?

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    I don't see how that would pass any legal challenge since there is no justification as to why that would affect the quality of the finished product. It also disqualifies a number of potential bidders for no apparent reason. One of the objectives in writing a set of specifications is to allow the maximum amount of bidders while preserving the right of the department to get an apparatus that fits the needs of that department. The more potential bidders...the greater the competition....the better the price quote. Thats my opinion anyway.

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    Certainly no problem getting 3 or more bids with that clause. Which would satisfy even the Feds. A bit unusual though. Would be interesting to read the rest of the clause in the spec ..... "due to ___________________"

    What, top of the frame rails might be exposed to the elements, potential for gravel dings on rear of the cab?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Not in a fire apparatus specification/bid!!!!! That would nevvvvvver happen! Not at all!!!!!! I just find that impossible to believe!
    And it wasn't that long ago that NJ did an investigation into apparatus purchases and claimed to have rooted out the problem.

    Of course, just about any FD in the world is smarter than a politician.


    What is sad is the amount of money wasted on the bidding process when they knew who would win the bid before even starting it.
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    Here is the clause in question:

    "The operations at the subassembly facilities shall be located within the boundaries of one state and shall be no more than 60 miles from the final assembly facility of the bidding manufacturer. The purchaser must have the ability to meet with the engineers for all phases of construction, observe all aspects of construction, and inspect the facilities during the course of a single inspection visit to the final assembler to enable the purchaser to make complete and informed decisions. PROPOSALS WHICH REQUIRE TRIPS EXCEEDING 60 MILES FROM THE MAIN FACILITY OR REQUIRE TRIPS INTO NUMEROUS STATES WILL BE DEEMED NON-CONFORMING AND NOT CONSIDERED."

    In the spec, the paragraph above this one allows separate subassembly facilities as long as both are wholly owned by the bidding manufacturer or parent company subject to the above restrictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spec-tec View Post
    EVIS is reporting that the City of Newark New Jersey has ordered Three Ferrara Fire Apparatus Heavy Duty Pumpers. Anyone have any info?
    God help them...while we've had problems with our Seagraves....we've had many many more with those HP pumpers we got. They are junk...there just isn't any otherway to say it.

    Best of luck to Newark..hope they have a good warranty like ours have...they will need it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomr View Post
    Here is the clause in question:

    "The operations at the subassembly facilities shall be located within the boundaries of one state and shall be no more than 60 miles from the final assembly facility of the bidding manufacturer. The purchaser must have the ability to meet with the engineers for all phases of construction, observe all aspects of construction, and inspect the facilities during the course of a single inspection visit to the final assembler to enable the purchaser to make complete and informed decisions. PROPOSALS WHICH REQUIRE TRIPS EXCEEDING 60 MILES FROM THE MAIN FACILITY OR REQUIRE TRIPS INTO NUMEROUS STATES WILL BE DEEMED NON-CONFORMING AND NOT CONSIDERED."

    In the spec, the paragraph above this one allows separate subassembly facilities as long as both are wholly owned by the bidding manufacturer or parent company subject to the above restrictions.
    Amazing that a FD would put verbage in like that especially one in NJ where the economy must be hurting and rule out a reputable (not saying Crimson necessarily) compliant bidder.

    Though a smart dealer would probably throw the bid package in the garbage after reading conditions like that.. Unless of course the dealer wrote the specs with the FD..

    Amazing that other major city FD's can buy apparatus from non chassis building OEMS..

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    Post What's The Problem ?

    Spartan Chassis, owns the Crimson Fire Apparatus company. I do not understand why they dumped the low bidder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    God help them...while we've had problems with our Seagraves....we've had many many more with those HP pumpers we got. They are junk...there just isn't any otherway to say it.

    Best of luck to Newark..hope they have a good warranty like ours have...they will need it.

    FTM-PTB
    What is an HP Pumper. I have three Ferrara's in my department and they perform awsome. We had all Mack's before that and they are all built old school just like the Mack but stop, turn better and are not run on computers. There must be a reason these big City's seem to like them, and it's certainly not low bid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spec-tec View Post
    What is an HP Pumper.
    HP = High Pressure. Here's one of the rigs he's referring to. Engine 54.

    There must be a reason these big City's seem to like them, and it's certainly not low bid.
    Fred works for a fairly large city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    HP = High Pressure. Here's one of the rigs he's referring to. Engine 54.



    Fred works for a fairly large city.
    HD Heavy Duty

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    Quote Originally Posted by spec-tec View Post
    HD Heavy Duty
    True, but since he wrote HP, I referred to High Pressure.
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    I have nothing for or against Ferrara. I would say any of the six bidders could build a satisfactory pumper that would meet the needs of the NFD. Its interesting that that 60 mile clause, which was not in any previous specs, would suddenly appear and only affects one bidder (who also happened to be the low bidder). Intentional? I don't know. How many other potential bidders did not bid when they saw that clause?
    I always let some potential bidders see a draft copy of the specs to let me know:
    a. any mistakes or problems with the design
    b. any items unfavorable to them or favorable to another potential bidder
    c. any items that were unclear or omitted
    I always got good feedback and the potential bidders all knew they had a chance. You would be surprised how quickly they can spot favoritism in a spec and know which manufacturer was being favored.

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    Well, at least Newark is getting some much needed newer apparatus.

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