1. #26
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    Default Is this unreasonable?

    We pull 12 hour shifts in my fire comm centre. 7 to 7 in rotating shifts. I don't have a problem coming in early (say 0600 - 0630) to facilitate a smooth turn over so long as I know that a) my relief is coming in at 1830 or b) I'm getting overtime. Expecting firefighters to work for free is to my mind unreasonable especially if you are demanding a standard from your crew that is not expected of the rest of the department. I'm not saying that high standards are not important but forcing your guys to work longer and harder than their peers is a problem. If you believe that the standards in your department need to change then work towards changing them department wide. Truck checks in my department are done daily while the firefighters are on the clock. Sure they are sometimes interrupted by a call, but the checks are still completed by the end of shift.

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    I'll add a little more.

    1. I'd be ****ed to hear you come into the station at 530 when I'm still trying to sleep. If your doing truck checks your making enough noise to wake everyone up.

    2. Till 0700 the truck is mine. Touch it, move it, or other wise mess with it and I'll be up your ***. I don't care what your rank is.

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    Around here, if you told a crew you expected them in at 0630 for a 0800 shift change, you'd be lucky to see anyone before 0755.

    Yes, they would be rubbing your nose in it, and there'd be nothing you could do about it.

    Not a good way to start off at a new assignment.

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    Thing is, Michael, that a department isn't a business. It's a family, or a brotherhood. In a job where you risk your neck to help others, you can't afford to treat your coworkers (or subordinates) like anything but capable, trustworthy adults.

    If they aren't capable, trustworthy adults, they need to leave the station. So if they're still around, they're probably good men and women.

    Treat them like it, and they'll rise to the occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I'll add a little more.

    1. I'd be ****ed to hear you come into the station at 530 when I'm still trying to sleep. If your doing truck checks your making enough noise to wake everyone up.

    2. Till 0700 the truck is mine. Touch it, move it, or other wise mess with it and I'll be up your ***. I don't care what your rank is.
    Very well stated...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #31
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    Regarding starting early: My old job on the Ambulance gave you the option of coming in 30 minutes early. You got 30 minutes OT if you managed to get your truck checked off and out the door by the time your shift starts.

    If your shift starts at 0900 you could either show up at 0900 and be out the door by 0930. Or you could show up at 0830 and be out by 0900 and get 30 minutes of OT.

    I guess the point is that we got paid to show up early, and you better believe that even with getting paid, many people preferred to show up at their regular start time.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    I'm calling troll on this... First post, and he hasn't come back to say anything.... Seems fishy to me...

    I said it in the other thread, maybe it's our ex-resident troll, back with a new username trying to stir **** up...

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I'm calling troll on this... .
    Second.

    I find it difficult to imagine any experienced career (or vollie for that matter) LT actually acting like this.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I'm calling troll on this... First post, and he hasn't come back to say anything.... Seems fishy to me...
    No, he is to busy trying to dig himself out of the pile of FLSA laws his chief or the local's boss dumped out of them.

    I personally show up an hour before shift (0600), I like to get a pot of coffee going, look at the morning paper and take a dump. My gear is swapped with the person I relieve by 0630 and I run through a quick check (SCBA, Medical Bag, TIC battery, etc...). The rest of my crew rolls in about 0630. We check the apparatus ON DUTY after the morning briefing by video conference.

    The possible troll does bring up some topics to discuss.

    Turn out time; 45 seconds to be dressed and belted in is extreme. Especially since he wants strict adherence to seat belts... It takes 20 seconds to come downstairs and get in the rig, so he is leaving 25 seconds for his crew to bunk out?

    Yes to bunking out for AFA's (at least have it with you when you get off the rig), and unless the Ambulance beats us to a medical we bring our bag and AED. Those are not unreasonable tasks.

    But I agree, probable Troll or future administrative position.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I'm calling troll on this... First post, and he hasn't come back to say anything.... Seems fishy to me...
    That crossed my mind, too.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I'm calling troll on this... First post, and he hasn't come back to say anything.... Seems fishy to me...

    I said it in the other thread, maybe it's our ex-resident troll, back with a new username trying to stir **** up...
    Either that... or he sees the beating he's getting and slithered back to whatever dark and damp place he came out of...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Either that... or he sees the beating he's getting and slithered back to whatever dark and damp place he came out of...
    Nope - He's to busy giving his world famous BST.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Nope - He's to busy giving his world famous BST.
    The proctologist reported that the surgery was successful.

    He has successfully located and removed the patient's head.

    Recovery is expected to be ongoing, could last for years.

    There is a significant likelyhood of head swelling that can only be overcome by infrequent periods of handing his butt to him on a platter.

    Alternative method to control head swelling is to force feed the ingestion of crow.

    If neither method seems to solve the head swelling, while not highly recommended, immobilize the patient with massive amounts of duck tape.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  14. #39
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    Don't get me wrong...I have been reading the responses so far. I do appreciate the constructive advice I've gotten from here.

    I see that for the most part, people agree with some of the expectations I layed out except for the turnout-times and reporting times.

    After thinking through the turnout expectations and talking with some fellow LTs, I've realized that 45 seconds in unreasonable. Our station is not large, nor is it a 2-story...however, even with that, 45 seconds is pushing it. I will say this, however, our station has a different mindset on turnout times for boxes vs EMS calls.

    About the reporting times, I've also talked with the guys and apologized about setting an unreasonable time to show up. Our Locution dispatch system automatically plays the tones at 0600 as an alarm to wake up. Most of the guys show up at 0600 anyways to chat with the previous crew or have a cup of coffee together.

    Addressing the question of why it takes an hour and a half (for me, at least) to check the engine: I personally believe in checking equipment like our lives depend on it (because it does). It sounds depressing (I know)...but I pretty much check every piece of equipment out 100% and make sure it's in the correct place. As it is...our station runs a lot of EMS and by the end of the day, it's uncommon for the bag to be messy from things being thrown in there. It takes me at least half an hour just to organize the EMS bag and make sure that all the supplies are stocked and in the right position. We are a paramedic engine so there is a little bit more equipment then say...in a BLS bag.

    From the responses I've got here, I think portrayed myself as a d***. If so, please accept my sincere apologies. I do realize that some of my expectations were indeed, unreasonable. In addition, taking on the suggestion of one post, I'm planning on buying dinner for OUR (not "my") crew.

    On a final note, after talking with some other Officers and reading what Deputy Chief Gonzo put, I'm going to do some of the "lowly" jobs around the house. I realize that being an officer is not a pass to not to any work. Before now, it was my expectation that a FF would carry our ALS EMS bag or AED. I'm helping to carry the EMS equipment now to show my crew that I'm still with them.

    I made a mistake when I moved to this new house by laying out the expectations the way I did. I made a mistake. Luckily for me, however, I do work with a great, great group of guys that are still willing to give me a shot.

    Thanks for the replies.

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    Holy crap! Someone who came, asked questions, got BLASTED, and stuck around to see the light!
    Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

  16. #41
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    Michael232:

    I must state for the record my friend... you have class. I haven't seen too many guys that accept the plate of crow and eat it without issue.

    Just take care of your guys and you will be fine.

    The crew can make the officer.

    The officer does not make himself. He only has to decide how far in front of the troops in rides while under fire.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael232 View Post
    Thanks for the replies.
    You're welcome. I hope things work out for you and your crew.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    The crew can make the officer.
    As I was told while going through the promotional process: "Remember that the lieutenant needs his firefighters far more than the firefighters need their lieutenant."
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  19. #44
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    Is your last name Timex??? 'cause you took one helluva beating, and your still ticking.

    I've heard it plenty of times that those that get promoted to Officer and higher grades, that they lose the fact and history of where they came from. From your OP, you sounded like one of them, if not worse.

    I'll give you accolades on doing some inner soul searching, and more importantly, talking to your "crew/team" and asking those that are your equal for help and guidance. That says alot about one's self, and character.

    Don't be surprised if the change in you, doesn't change the mindset of your Brothers.

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Michael232:

    I must state for the record my friend... you have class. I haven't seen too many guys that accept the plate of crow and eat it without issue.

    Just take care of your guys and you will be fine.

    The crew can make the officer.

    The officer does not make himself. He only has to decide how far in front of the troops in rides while under fire.
    This pretty much says it all.

    Michael - What is the purpose of the 6 AM wake up tones?

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    As long as you have the ability to take criticism, self evaluate, admit your mistakes, and learn from them, there may be hope for you yet. I always look at it this way (I am not a fire officer, but hold a similar position in my job), you are there to work for your crew, not the other way around. It is your job to ensure your crew has the tools, training, and support they need to get the job done.

  22. #47
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    By god sir, that's impressive. You got the hell beat out of you and you came back.

    I'm glad you read the responses, and it appears you took them into consideration, and appears as though you are going to change things and apologize. In my eyes, being able to take constructive criticism (or the mild beating you got here), realizing your flaws, and working to correct them, makes a good officer.

    Hope things work out better for you and your crew. Stay safe.

  23. #48
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    Thumbs up Well..........

    After about 37 posts, I'd framed a reply.......... Never mind now. Mike, Good Luck to you. Not a lot of Folks that can accept advice like that and act on it.....
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    - What is the purpose of the 6 AM wake up tones?
    To wake up before shift change. Ours are at 7:15, shift change at 8am. It's like an alarm clock that comes in handy especially if you've had 5 or more runs after midnight. You know, wake up, toilet, brush teeth, break down bedding, go downstairs and have a cup of rotgut coffee, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    To wake up before shift change. Ours are at 7:15, shift change at 8am. It's like an alarm clock that comes in handy especially if you've had 5 or more runs after midnight. You know, wake up, toilet, brush teeth, break down bedding, go downstairs and have a cup of rotgut coffee, etc.
    Copy. Thank you. We just set our alarm clock. If for some reason someone hasn't got up by 10 till we wake them.

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