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  1. #1
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    Default Manifolded pump with two 6" intakes on the same side, lend me your opinions please

    Gentlemen,

    My Dept is planning a truck with 2,000 GPM rated Hale Qmax. To facilitate better use on the fire ground, I'm proposing that we intall two 6" steamers on the passenger side. No internal valves, no bleeders, just large cavernous piping. NFPA compliant intake valves would be connected after the fact.

    I know that Waterous is offering this as a standard option on their manifolded pumps. Here is a picture of one of the seventy-sum-odd Seagrave build for FDNY.



    Hale refers to having dual 6" on the same side in some of their literature. The Hale/Class 1 Product Application guide says that a Qmax can be expected to draft at 2,000 GPM. On page 36 of this document, the last row reads "Side Dual 6” - 2,000 GPM."

    Page 39 shows a details diagram of the intake and discharge ports. If you'll look at the suction extension, it's a rectangular flanged intake connection between the main manifold and the steamer. I've cropped a pic and colored it red here:



    My proposal is to come straight off the rectangular flange with a large wye that extends out to two 6" steamers, allowing 2,000 GPM drafting from one side.

    Clearly, Hale refers to it on page 36, but for the life of me I can't find a rep or a technician who can give me a straight answer. Does anyone in here have some insight?

    BTW, I've e-mailed my question to Hale, but haven't gotten a reply just yet.

    Thanx in advance!
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    I don't see why it couldn't be done. Builders have intake mainfolds welded up and fabricated regularly for pedestal mount pumps that are capable of 2,000 gpm, so why couldn't they fab this piece as well?
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    You must have a lot of tankers if your going to be drafting at 2000gpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    I don't see why it couldn't be done. Builders have intake mainfolds welded up and fabricated regularly for pedestal mount pumps that are capable of 2,000 gpm, so why couldn't they fab this piece as well?
    That's not an everyday thing on Waterous, but they do offer the option, and FDNY is one user.

    Joel's solution has a lot going for it. Another approach, depending on space available behind the pump panel, would be to acquire a Waterous dual inlet casting, then fabricate an adapter plate so you could attach it to your Hale pump casting. I like Joel's idea better. But in any case, you're going to need a builder who's willing to "try stuff."

  5. #5
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    Hi All,

    I just did a class in Killington VT. They have a new engine with a Hale 2000 GPM pump, with twin 6" intakes on the officers side. KME was the truck builder. I would suggest contacting the department and ask how they did it.

    Name:  Killington VT PP.jpg
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    Hope this helps.

    Be Safe,

    Capt Lou
    "GotFoam?"

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    I've seen an industrial truck at E-One with an Hale 8FG pump and four 6" inlets on the same side and rated at 3,500 gpm. This was a SS fabricated manifold.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    You must have a lot of tankers if you’re going to be drafting at 2000gpm.
    It's not for a tanker shuttle, it's for a Foam Pumper at a Petroleum Storage facility, LIKE THIS. It would support a trailer mounted 6,000 GPM pump supplied with 7¼" hose.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptLou View Post
    Hi All,

    I just did a class in Killington VT. They have a new engine with a Hale 2000 GPM pump, with twin 6" intakes on the officer’s side. KME was the truck builder. I would suggest contacting the department and ask how they did it.

    Attachment 19246
    Hope this helps.
    Be Safe,
    Capt Lou
    "GotFoam?"
    That's a great example. I appreciate you turning me onto that. The difference there is that the second 6" is routed to port "T", which is on the backside of the manifold, requiring a 90° bend that occupies too much space and causes too much friction loss in my opinion. View the construction pics here: http://www.kfrvt.org/apparatus/engine-1
    The picture is 5th from the bottom.
    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    I've seen an industrial truck at E-One with an Hale 8FG pump and four 6" inlets on the same side and rated at 3,500 gpm. This was a SS fabricated manifold.
    Another good example, but Admin isn't open to the idea of using an 8FG pump. I wish they were, it would solve a lot of problems with plumbing the discharges to mesh with a balanced pressure foam system.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

  8. #8
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    I think that your department would be better with the intake set up as the FDNY is using, shown in your first post.

    It appears that the plumbing behind the panel is a smoother one than having two different distinct intakes as the one by the KME pumper. This one would have one or two 90 degree bends. Thus creating more friction loss.

    Check with the pump manufactures' as well as the apparatus sales people and see what is best for the buck.



    BTW, for those who may not know, the reason behind the double suctions on the right side, is that the water enters the pump in the direction the impellers are turning.

    When drafting the right midship side it the intake you need to be connected too.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    Another good example, but Admin isn't open to the idea of using an 8FG pump. I wish they were, it would solve a lot of problems with plumbing the discharges to mesh with a balanced pressure foam system.
    Don't understand their reluctance. the Hale 8FG seems to be the standard high volume industrial pump according to the refinery people I've met. Which is the kind of application you're talking about.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    I think that your department would be better with the intake set up as the FDNY is using, shown in your first post.

    It appears that the plumbing behind the panel is a smoother one than having two different distinct intakes as the one by the KME pumper. This one would have one or two 90 degree bends. Thus creating more friction loss.

    Check with the pump manufactures' as well as the apparatus sales people and see what is best for the buck.



    BTW, for those who may not know, the reason behind the double suctions on the right side, is that the water enters the pump in the direction the impellers are turning.

    When drafting the right midship side it the intake you need to be connected too.
    The reason the pant leg suction is typically mounted on the curb side of the pump is so that the operator isn't tripping over two pieces of hard suction while they are trying to operate from a side mounted pump panel.

    In fact the Waterous pant leg suction is available on either side of the pump. Pump performance will not be affected by which side you draft from, providing the intake arrangement is the same.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    Don't understand their reluctance. the Hale 8FG seems to be the standard high volume industrial pump according to the refinery people I've met. Which is the kind of application you're talking about.
    End suction pumps are more prone to recirculation cavitation than their similarly rated midship counterparts. This is due to only having a single suction eye impeller as opposed to the dual eye impeller used on large single stage midship pumps. In addition it may just be a function of how the department wants the apparatus set up. Some folks just prefer cast and bolted manifolds as opposed to other options.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  12. #12
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    Saw this truck while doing a factory inspection, it's from Stafford, Texas. It's a Waterous S100 pump rated at 2000 GPM. Good idea IMO.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleEVT View Post
    Saw this truck while doing a factory inspection, it's from Stafford, Texas. It's a Waterous S100 pump rated at 2000 GPM. Good idea IMO.
    Jeez. Now that chief from Stafford is going to come on here and have a big head...
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  14. #14
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    The photo shown is from our '07 Spartan/General pumper. As mentioned this set-up is 2-6" intakes on the OIC side. The pump is however a Waterous S100ES as it has the large CFM capacity belt driven CAFS system attached.

    This is our second rig using this model pump and intake set-up. The benefits we realized with this set up are...


    "Clean" Chauffeur side panel eliminating trip hazards and "blown connection" hazards (except for speed lay and cross lay hose lines).

    Less "loss" of available water (i.e. friction loss) by placing both intakes closer, and reducing piping for, the manifold and consequently the pump itself.

    Placed both intakes on same side facilitating easier connection when using dual LDH supply lines.


    Our rigs are set up with 1 intake having 5" Storz and 1 having 6" Storz as we carry 1000' of each on each Engine Co. Given our average 300' hydrant spacing this allows a great deal of flexibility on the fire ground.

    So far, so good. Each of the rigs set-up this way have been outstanding and move water as designed and intended.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Here are 2 views of the "finished" in service product.

    "Clean" Chauffeur side pump panel and "working" OIC side...
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by STATION2 View Post
    Here are 2 views of the "finished" in service product.
    "Clean" Chauffeur side pump panel and "working" OIC side...
    Holy crap you guys did it right.
    • Inverted cab-mounted bus mirrors
    • steel front bumper with chevron striping
    • recessed Q and other audibles
    • roll up doors
    • ladder rack
    • dual brow lights
    • large high-mounted tank gauge
    • aluminum wheels
    • is that a 120-volt AC condenser I see on top?
    I'm putting the theory to test next shift.

    We have a reserve truck with a front suction. It is "wyed" into the suction extension, the component painted red in the pic above. If I can draft 2,000 GPM using the side and the front, then I know that a custom "side-by-side" will too.

    If time allows, I'm also going to put the truck on a 10” Ring Main Manifold and see if I can get 3,000 GPM out of it.

    Few things substantiate a position better than documented performance.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    Thanks...has worked out well. Although we won't do those mirrors again.

    And yes.......you did see a seperate 120V A/C unit on the cab roof. It is wired for shore line power and generator power for on-scene use.

    Here is the other one set up the same...
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  18. #18
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    Station 2,
    Where you been? You used to be on here most every day, but haven't heard from you in a long time!

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    Bladensburg, Maryland Engine 93 and Telesqurt 9 (which was recently sold) both have 2000GPM Waterous pumps with the same dual steamer connection set up on the passenger side of the rig. In addition, they have the traditional steamer on the driver side as well as front suction and side 2.5" intakes.

    It was explained to me that this was so that they could draft the pump capacity from the one side of the rig. Not 100% how true that is, but just passing along what I was told. They're a busy department, maybe someone there can shed more light on the subject for you.
    FTM-PTB DTRT

    Everything I state on here is to support and aid my fellow firefighters. Everything I post is my opinion only, and in no way should be taken as an official opinion of any Company, Department, or Municipality I represent... oh and this includes Pierce Mfg, as so their legal department has advised me; since they apparently also invented the right to control "Free Speech".

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johngagemn View Post
    End suction pumps are more prone to recirculation cavitation than their similarly rated midship counterparts.
    But there arn't any mid-ship cast iron pumps that are close to the rating capacity of the 8FG pump. It's in a whole nuther class.

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