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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
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    Default How far horizontally can you draft from a source?

    Ok, it sounds bizarre, but I want to know if I jack an additional section or two of hard suction 6" off of our first due engine, can I reach out 25' to 35' to a run off pond and draft horizontally to the supply engine?

    The pond has a short levy that sits maybe 8' above the paved surface the truck will park on and it is about 25' to the edge of the water. The depth of the pond is about 10' (give or take a bit). This is at a somewhat water starved production plant. The hold pond is rather large so it seems it could be a viable source.

    We do draft from the midmount pump to the nose of the engine (port-a-pond) with 20' of suction off the steamer regularly. So, how far horizontally can we go?
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    MembersZone Subscriber Saltspringfire's Avatar
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    If you're only lifting 10' or so you should have no problem adding on multiple hard suction sections. 35' should be a cake walk as long as all your connections are good, although your priming may be longer due to the amount of air that will need to be evacuated.
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    Like Saltspringfire said, when drafting you are only really concerned with the vertical distance from source to pump. Adding horizontal distance theoretically won't change anything.

    Realistically, extra horizontal distance will get you more friction loss, extra couplings could leak air and make obtaining and maintaining a prime difficult, and longer suction hose means the primer will have to run for a longer period of time to get water up to the pump.

  4. #4
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    I don't any pics, but we've drafted through six or seven 10' lengths of 6" hard suction. It was for training, not on a fire call. It did take a little while to prime though.

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    Last Friday night, I pulled a draft through dual 6" suctions, each 60' long, up a 17Ĺ' lift, and still flowed 1,500 GPM. So I say go for it.

    It took about 45 seconds to prime the first line, after we back flushed it. The second was primed using the centrifugal pump, not the primer pump.

    If you're worried about length, just back fill from you tank, that will help flush out a horizontal line real quick.
    Last edited by txgp17; 08-10-2010 at 12:35 AM.
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    Or get a turbodraft or two. Quicker and easier to set up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Or get a turbodraft or two. Quicker and easier to set up.
    Excellent point.

    But, the TurboDraft works best with 5" hose. I don't know what size LDH his dept may have, but with 4" the TurboDraft wouldn't give more than 400 GPM.

    A long stretch of 6" hard suction at a moderate lift will likely flow twice what the TurboDraft could hope to achieve.

    When using dual TurboDraft's, then things start to look better. The bad thing about a TurboDraft is that once you exceed it's flow capability, your pump cavitates and everything shuts down, and you have to start over.

    I'd much prefer 6" hard suction.
    Last edited by txgp17; 08-10-2010 at 03:17 PM.
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  8. #8
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Theoretically, the only limitation to long horizontal suction is friction loss and airtight couplings.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
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    Thank you for the information. It pretty much confirmed what I thought I knew.

    60'...?....Hmmm...we have another spot where the pond is about 40' from the trucks....

    As for the prime and back flush...uh, I'm a lazy pump op and I usually back flush to clear most of the air before I prime anyway. (oops, did I admit that?)

    We have jet siphons on the low levels but I will probably try and use a floater because I am not exactly sure what they lined that pond with and I care not to suck a super nasty item into the pump and make the truck go "clunk".
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    uh, I'm a lazy pump op and I usually back flush to clear most of the air before I prime anyway. (oops, did I admit that?)
    Not lazy; "Energy Efficient."
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Try installing a dry hydrant.

    Lower friction loss (with properly sized piping)

    Only one piece of hard suction is needed - Hopefully this means it is quicker to set up and more reliable because of fewer connections.

    Easier to prime (most of the pipe is already full of water).


    We have one with 180'+ horizontal run on a 10' lift - works just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    Excellent point.

    But, the TurboDraft works best with 5" hose. I don't know what size LDH his dept may have, but with 4" the TurboDraft wouldn't give more than 400 GPM.

    A long stretch of 6" hard suction at a moderate lift will likely flow twice what the TurboDraft could hope to achieve.

    When using dual TurboDraft's, then things start to look better. The bad thing about a TurboDraft is that once you exceed it's flow capability, your pump cavitates and everything shuts down, and you have to start over.

    I'd much prefer 6" hard suction.
    I've only used 4" once (50') from foldatank to ditch. My WA estimate is 6-700gpm. I find TD literature to be pretty conservative.

    Best use in my opinion of TD is to fill a foldatank and draft from the foldatank. Largely will eliminates the pump out running the supply. 5"S line holders are over priced though.

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    NEIOWA: Expect to reduce your flow by about 100 gpm for every 10' joint of hard sleeve you add beyond 20 feet. For a 1500 gpm pump with 60' of hard sleeve you should get about 1100 gpm at a 10' lift. Be very careful as you throttle up. It will be easy to cavitate at high flow rates. Like others on here have said, "expect to have some long priming times." For pumps larger than 1500 GPM you need suction from two intakes to meet the pump spec. so with only one 6" sleeve, expect to see no difference between a 1500, 1750, or 2,000 gpm engines.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Try installing a dry hydrant.

    Lower friction loss (with properly sized piping)

    .
    We wanted one put in when the company built the plant...alas, we did not push hard enough and the pond was installed and the factory finished before we could press the issue.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    Wow glad I read this I was always told drafting more the 20 ft from any water source was about the limit didn't matter if it is was horizontal or virtical. So I guess I can start moving my dump tank alittle further way from the pumper ( assuming theres room) to give us more room to work around the pumper and get tools? Most firefighter around here insist the dump tank be right next to the pump panel or that won't use it and that use the nurse tanker set up which for me is 100 times harder and not as effective.

  16. #16
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034
    Wow glad I read this I was always told drafting more the 20 ft from any water source was about the limit didn't matter if it is was horizontal or virtical. So I guess I can start moving my dump tank alittle further way from the pumper ( assuming theres room) to give us more room to work around the pumper and get tools? Most firefighter around here insist the dump tank be right next to the pump panel or that won't use it and that use the nurse tanker set up which for me is 100 times harder and not as effective.
    I'm sure I'll be corrected, but if you're drafting off the dump tank, you DO want it as close as possible using the shortest length of hard line to draft with.

    Drafting horizontally and vertically are 2 different operations with 2 different results. Same with length of the hard line you are trying to draft with.

    You lost me on the last comment. Hooked on phonics???

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    FM

    We use 10, 20, or 30 feet with a porta tank. It just depends on tank placement and the surrounding. Of course less is better because of set up times and less chance of air leaks.

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    There are times when setting up the dump tank several feet behind the pumper would work much better for a tanker (tender) to drop their load, but most departments around here insist on dump tank 3 feet in front of pump panel or nothing. When I use the term nurse tanker, for us, that means a tanker pulls up near the pumper and we pull ( or push if tanker has a pump) the water directly from the tanker to the pumpers intake. Problem is when the tanker is empty you have to disconnect everything move that tanker out of the way then move the next tanker in place and rehook. All of which takes way to much time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    There are times when setting up the dump tank several feet behind the pumper would work much better for a tanker (tender) to drop their load, but most departments around here insist on dump tank 3 feet in front of pump panel or nothing. When I use the term nurse tanker, for us, that means a tanker pulls up near the pumper and we pull ( or push if tanker has a pump) the water directly from the tanker to the pumpers intake. Problem is when the tanker is empty you have to disconnect everything move that tanker out of the way then move the next tanker in place and rehook. All of which takes way to much time.
    The problem with setting a dump tank up behind the primary pumper is not many pumpers are equipped with an intake on the rear of the vehicle. That is why it works best to put it either directly on the side, the best route, or out front off a front suction intake on the bumper. Not to mention the amount of hard suction you'd require to bend off the side intake, or front even, to get the suction hose back to a drop tank set up behind a standard pumper.

    Placing the tank in front of the engine works well in that the pump operator can easily check on the status of available water, plus if shorthanded, its allows him to direct the tanker/tender driver into place without having to walk all around the engine.

    More often than not, the drivers get short-sighted and pull right up into the driveway instead of backing in. If they took the extra 30-45 seconds to back in, putting a drop tank up front would be the best solution. Instead, they get tunnel vision and go in nose-first. Then you get stuck performing nursing operations, which as pointed out, are slow and more labor intensive.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBFD25 View Post
    Placing the tank in front of the engine works well in that the pump operator can easily check on the status of available water, plus if shorthanded, its allows him to direct the tanker/tender driver into place without having to walk all around the engine.

    More often than not, the drivers get short-sighted and pull right up into the driveway instead of backing in. If they took the extra 30-45 seconds to back in, putting a drop tank up front would be the best solution. Instead, they get tunnel vision and go in nose-first. Then you get stuck .
    We've been training on that very tactic.

    The hypothesis at this point is to place the pond at the end of a drive (country setting) across the first lane of traffic. The idea is that a tanker(tender) can drive to the side of the pond and side dump or pull past and then back in and rear dump.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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