Thread: nfpa standards

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    My fire cheif "quotes" nfpa standards like they are the law to all fire departments. He says the department has to follow all the nfpa standards or we are in violation.
    Are nfpa standards a "guideline" or a "law" ?

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    They are not laws... but if someone gets hurt or killed.. they will be brought into the court and quoted as gospel.

    Do a search on Lairdsville, NY....
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    They're a nationally recognized standards, not laws. However, a good lawyer would be able to argue that a department willfully neglected to follow a nationally recognized set of standards. Could go either way...
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    for your sake I hope he also quotes their standard on staffing....that would be the only one I'd consider a blessing.

    and 1403

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    Some people like their cake and want to eat it too.

    If he cites NFPA in several areas to make a point of reference as the LAW, then anything that he or the JHA does not comply with is a matter of choice, or perhaps convenience. In other words, we will just pick and choose what part of NFPA we will recognize.

    Unfortunately, most departments are not even close to NFPA compliance. It is a bait and switch situation. Just when it seems you may finally reach compliance in some of the standard, it is changed, thus raising the bar.

    To reach compliance in the entire Standard, you would have to have an endless supply of funding. That doesn't exist anywhere that I know of. Some departments are better funded than others, and some are much closer to compliance than most.

    I tend to think of it as somewhere we'd like to be, but it is only a pipe dream.

    I can cite NFPA all day, and state we should do this and we should do that... but the reality is we should, but we can't.

    Chief's that use it as a whip to move their department historically are the one's that get thumped on down the road. Those demands and statements on the record will have more bearing than where the department really is at any given moment.

    If your department does not have the funding, then it cannot become compliant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer911 View Post
    My fire cheif "quotes" nfpa standards like they are the law to all fire departments. He says the department has to follow all the nfpa standards or we are in violation.
    Are nfpa standards a "guideline" or a "law" ?
    A guideline as others have posted, and a standard to which you can be held to.

    I pretty much look at them as goals to achieve if possible.

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    Everyone is correct,

    I'm not sure if this is fact, but, can a state adopt NFPA standards as a law?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer911 View Post
    My fire cheif "quotes" nfpa standards like they are the law to all fire departments. He says the department has to follow all the nfpa standards or we are in violation.
    Are nfpa standards a "guideline" or a "law" ?
    Ask him if your FD is 1710 or 1720 compliant!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Ask him if your FD is 1710 or 1720 compliant!
    You survived Lobstafest I see,hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer911 View Post
    Are nfpa standards a "guideline" or a "law" ?
    Pick a standard and a jurisdiction.

    At the very least, they're professional peer consensus standards. They are also often legally adopted into law either implicitly or explicitly.

    Either way your department will be held responsible for recognizing them to some extent.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    They are the law where ever the AHJ, or the state, has adopted them as such.

    Wisconsin has adopted, at the state level through Comm 30,the listed below NFPA standards.

    NFPA 1001-1997
    NFPA 1002-1998
    NFPA 1021-1997
    NFPA 1901-1999
    NFPA 1911-1997
    NFPA 1914-1997
    NFPA 1971-2000
    NFPA 1981-1997
    NFPA 1982-1998
    NFPA 1983-2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    They are the law where ever the AHJ, or the state, has adopted them as such.

    Wisconsin has adopted, at the state level through Comm 30,the listed below NFPA standards.
    `

    I know Michigan has adopted some of the NFPA standards as part of their OSHA laws.
    When I was there in the early 90's we had an OSHA inspection of the fire department.

    They reviewed the trucks to see if they were compliant with the year they were bought.
    Our new truck was.
    They wanted to see training records.
    Any accident reports.
    Maintenence records and maybe some other stuff.

    We did well.

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    Although Indiana has not adopted NFPA standards (to my knowledge) per say, IOSHA in Indiana uses NFPA guidelines to adopt standards.

    Indiana's certification board is pushing HARD towards NFPA compliance....Wish we were all rich
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    They are the law where ever the AHJ, or the state, has adopted them as such.

    Wisconsin has adopted, at the state level through Comm 30,the listed below NFPA standards.

    NFPA 1001-1997
    NFPA 1002-1998
    NFPA 1021-1997
    NFPA 1901-1999
    NFPA 1911-1997
    NFPA 1914-1997
    NFPA 1971-2000
    NFPA 1981-1997
    NFPA 1982-1998
    NFPA 1983-2001
    I see 1983 on there. Has the state of WI become a manufacturer of rope equipment? This is not a jab at you, but why would a state adopt a standard for the manufacture of rope equipment? It is not a user standard.

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    I find it kinda funny on how the NFPA guidelines work. I know why they are there, but some are really overboard.

    When they required/suggested the rear chevrons on the rear of the rigs, everybody here was against having them.

    Now enter the builder of our last rigs. They said if you omit the chevrons, you have to sign a waiver.

    Kinda puts you between a rock and a hard place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFDRescue2 View Post
    I see 1983 on there. Has the state of WI become a manufacturer of rope equipment? This is not a jab at you, but why would a state adopt a standard for the manufacture of rope equipment? It is not a user standard.
    I don't mean to come off as a smart *** but...Um, golly, if I worked for the State Commerce Department I could possibly answer why they chose that particular standard to include in the ones they adopted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    I find it kinda funny on how the NFPA guidelines work. I know why they are there, but some are really overboard.

    When they required/suggested the rear chevrons on the rear of the rigs, everybody here was against having them.

    Now enter the builder of our last rigs. They said if you omit the chevrons, you have to sign a waiver.

    Kinda puts you between a rock and a hard place.

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    And even with the chevrons... idiots keep driving into the backs of fire trucks...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    Indiana's certification board is pushing HARD towards NFPA compliance....Wish we were all rich

    Bob, are you referring to Training Standards here??.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Bob, are you referring to Training Standards here??.....
    Harve, I still think it's shameful that we can't deliver free training in ALL aspects of fire service training for members nationwide. Many of our members in VA and MD don't realize how good they have it.

    Between now and December, I'm teaching Firefighter 1, Firefighter 2, Basic Pump Ops, and two Rural Water Supply classes in 5 different localities, and all students will attend free of charge. And because Firefighter 1 & 2 are certification classes and will carry the ProBoard seal, they adhere to NFPA 1001.

    Sorry for the tangent, back to the discussion at hand...
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 08-12-2010 at 11:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I still think it's shameful that we can't deliver free training in ALL aspects of fire service training for members nationwide.
    "Free" is only meaningful in Utopia. In the real world, "free" just means that someone else is paying for it.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187
    I still think it's shameful that we can't deliver free training in ALL aspects of fire service training for members nationwide.
    Originally Posted by Deputy Marshal
    "Free" is only meaningful in Utopia. In the real world, "free" just means that someone else is paying for it.
    The firehouse isn't a democracy and it ain't Utopia... suck it up and deal with it!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    "Free" is only meaningful in Utopia.
    Welcome to the Utopia FD, where students don't have to stroke a check for training!

    In the real world, "free" just means that someone else is paying for it.
    Each locality in our Commonwealth is awarded up to three free training classes per year, delivered by Adjunct Instructors of the Virginia Department of Fire Programs. A majority of VDFP funding comes from insurance premiums collected from Virginia residents. The insurance companies turn over a percentage of thier annual premiums to the VDFP for the specific purpose of delivering fire service training.

    Semantics? Probably. But when you look at some states where students are paying hundred or thousands of dollars to attend fire service training through the local fire academy or community college, our deal seems pretty sweet.
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