1. #51
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    It could cut both ways...

    A mfg might try to protect interest, like changes in materials that may require retooling, at the same time trying to evaluate the reasonable life of product. There is no doubt they are a stakeholder.

    I can understand if this were the case. I do have a hard time grasping how they would regulate themselves, except I know they do indeed try to do that very thing in PPE. The industrial sector is very self critical.

    It is cheaper to do it right the first time than defend the lawsuit down the road.

    Now where did I read that story?

    I don't have a problem with mfg sector being involved. They do bring the specialized knowledge to the table as to the materials, the mfg process, and to some degree product testing. I do think they have something to contribute.

    DM, we agreed again. We're slipping a bit here. I'll have to find something else to talk about now.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  2. #52
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    DM, we agreed again. We're slipping a bit here. I'll have to find something else to talk about now.
    Tastes great or less filling?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  3. #53
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    510

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    What's important is to make an effort and to have good reasons when we don't. (IMHO, cost alone isn't a good reason.)
    Our department has a yearly budget <$35,000 a year. That is for utilities, building maintenance, equipment maintenance, new equipment, and any other cost that comes up. We consider ourselves fortunate as there are other departments close to us that do not have this much.

    We received the AFG grant for a 2008 pumper / tanker. This is the first NFPA compliant piece of apparatus that we have owned. It replaced a '76 Ford with bad transmission, motor problems, and several other maladies. Last year we got the grant for air packs. The newest pack that it replaced was 14 years old that was donated to us 3 years ago. Most were first generation MSA MMR's. It is not that we don't want to be compliant, but we can not afford it.

    We are obviously a completely volunteer department. We serve an area of 72 sq. miles and a population of close to 1500. 1/3 of the population are Amish. There may be 3 or 4 families that could afford an increase in taxes. Does that mean that the rest of our coverage area does not deserve fire coverage?

    Some of us have full sets of compliant gear (top responders), some have compliant coats, pants, or boots based on what is available that fits them. To the last member, we are there to help out our family and neighbors. We understand that we will not have the latest and greatest, but we are still going to do whatever we can to help out those in our communities. We maintain everything ourselves (we can't afford to send it out) and we are pretty proud of how well we can function.

    How can you come on here and say that we should not be helping out our neighbors because neither us, nor our communities can afford the newest equipment to meet standards that have not been tested in our conditions?!?!?!?

    Gear is kept in a room with one window with no direct sunlight. It is to be checked every other month thoroughly by the member and an officer. It is to be cleaned after every use. Full gear is used on average 3 times a year for a fire, 10 times for an accident, and 20-30 times for training and drills. I invite you to come and look at the gear we have that is over 10 years old and show me why it is not in good, serviceable condition.

    I apologize for the direct tone of this post, but I get upset when I am told that because we don't have more money, we shouldn't be trying to help. I would also like to know how my helmet that is 12 years old (660) is not functional. It has been stored out of the sun, climate controlled, and comparatively little used. Please be as technical as you would like. I am an engineer and work with plastics, fiberglass, and composites so anything that goes over my head, I can get clarified for me at work

  4. #54
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    It is not that we don't want to be compliant, but we can not afford it.
    Part of what matters is that you're aggressively working to obtain and maintain compliance.

    Some of us have full sets of compliant gear (top responders), some have compliant coats, pants, or boots based on what is available that fits them. To the last member, we are there to help out our family and neighbors. We understand that we will not have the latest and greatest, but we are still going to do whatever we can to help out those in our communities.
    What this means is that you might have to limit your operations according to your equipment. If you're limited on compliant PPE, you might also be limited on interior firefighting -- that's not a budget issue.

    How can you come on here and say that we should not be helping out our neighbors
    I haven't. What I've said is that you may me limited by economic necessity to the functions that you can afford to provide. It sounds like you're making every effort to maximize the service you provide given the budget that you have. Nobody can ask for more than that.

    I apologize for the direct tone of this post,
    No worries. You haven't said anything disagreeable. It sounds like you're making the best of things that you can.

    I would also like to know how my helmet that is 12 years old (660) is not functional.
    Hopefully it's a 660c. 660's turned out to be trash the day they were made. As for a 660c, there's no way to determine if it still meets spec short of destructive testing. Hopefully you're aggressively trying to replace older equipment as soon as practically possible.

    I am an engineer and work with plastics, fiberglass, and composites
    Then you're aware that they degrade with age and have a finite shelf life. It sounds like you're doing all the right things to assure that shelf life is maximized but, as an engineer, you know that they won't last forever.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  5. #55
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    limited by economic necessity


    Now watch it there DM... you're beginning to sound like me there. That's 3.




    I cannot deny....

    Taste great.... and it is less filling.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  6. #56
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,091

    Default

    FNG - I did some un scientific testing on a couple of 15 year old composite helmets. They slid when I tried to drive the dullies over them , so I took a 9 lb sledge to them - 10 swings - no cracks - granted they tended to slide as I hit them - still , I hit them hard enough to break any one neck.

  7. #57
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Our department has a yearly budget <$35,000 a year. That is for utilities, building maintenance, equipment maintenance, new equipment, and any other cost that comes up. We consider ourselves fortunate as there are other departments close to us that do not have this much.

    We received the AFG grant for a 2008 pumper / tanker. This is the first NFPA compliant piece of apparatus that we have owned. It replaced a '76 Ford with bad transmission, motor problems, and several other maladies. Last year we got the grant for air packs. The newest pack that it replaced was 14 years old that was donated to us 3 years ago. Most were first generation MSA MMR's. It is not that we don't want to be compliant, but we can not afford it.

    We are obviously a completely volunteer department. We serve an area of 72 sq. miles and a population of close to 1500. 1/3 of the population are Amish. There may be 3 or 4 families that could afford an increase in taxes. Does that mean that the rest of our coverage area does not deserve fire coverage?

    Some of us have full sets of compliant gear (top responders), some have compliant coats, pants, or boots based on what is available that fits them. To the last member, we are there to help out our family and neighbors. We understand that we will not have the latest and greatest, but we are still going to do whatever we can to help out those in our communities. We maintain everything ourselves (we can't afford to send it out) and we are pretty proud of how well we can function.

    How can you come on here and say that we should not be helping out our neighbors because neither us, nor our communities can afford the newest equipment to meet standards that have not been tested in our conditions?!?!?!?

    Gear is kept in a room with one window with no direct sunlight. It is to be checked every other month thoroughly by the member and an officer. It is to be cleaned after every use. Full gear is used on average 3 times a year for a fire, 10 times for an accident, and 20-30 times for training and drills. I invite you to come and look at the gear we have that is over 10 years old and show me why it is not in good, serviceable condition.

    I apologize for the direct tone of this post, but I get upset when I am told that because we don't have more money, we shouldn't be trying to help. I would also like to know how my helmet that is 12 years old (660) is not functional. It has been stored out of the sun, climate controlled, and comparatively little used. Please be as technical as you would like. I am an engineer and work with plastics, fiberglass, and composites so anything that goes over my head, I can get clarified for me at work
    MIGHT want to rethink your washing policy. Too much washing can be as bad as not enough. You can get SUGGESTED procedures from any of the gear mfgs by merely asking. Don't know whose gear you use so I can't directly address the proper cycles. T.C.

  8. #58
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    510

    Default

    We use Globe as the new gear (GX7). Some of the older stuff is a mix.

    We use an old maytag ringer washer to wash the gear when it is very dirty with gear cleaning solution (I don't have the jug to see what the actual name is). After most calls, "wash" consists of hosing it off for any mud or dirt that may have gotten on it. We require a full wash after going in on a fire or when there is a build up of dirt.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    We use Globe as the new gear (GX7). Some of the older stuff is a mix.

    We use an old maytag ringer washer to wash the gear when it is very dirty with gear cleaning solution (I don't have the jug to see what the actual name is). After most calls, "wash" consists of hosing it off for any mud or dirt that may have gotten on it. We require a full wash after going in on a fire or when there is a build up of dirt.
    That's OK.I just HAPPENED to take the Globe factory tour recently and part of that tour is CARING and repairing for your gear. And washing it too often is one of those items. Each Mfg will have specific requirements. Sounds like you are on the right track,just thought I'd throw that out there. T.C.

  10. #60
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    We use Globe as the new gear (GX7). Some of the older stuff is a mix.
    FYI, Globe recommends a front loader -- not a wringer.

    Here's their Basic Care and Cleaning page:

    http://globefiresuits.com/globe/tech...-cleaning.aspx
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-18-2010 at 12:20 PM.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  11. #61
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Nicely done DM. T.C.

  12. #62
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    510

    Default

    When I say ringer washer, this is what I meant. This is what we could afford and would take the abuse of washing gear.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  13. #63
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    The persons who told me and 100s others at the same meeting that the NFPA pushed for and the committee voted against overwhelming evidence that aruged against this gift to manufactures...thinly disguised as a safety measure....are on the list presented earlier. I've spoke to two of those people numerous times over the past years in regards to gear issues as have many others.

    They are the rare ones who have broke ranks (mainly because their clients, us, drove them too do so, certainly not because it was in their financial interest) The rest of the "experts" who are far from disinterested in the outcome of this process choose to ignore actual rational proof that this standard was ill-advised.

    A number of you can continue to can attempt to rationalize this idiotic standard. But the numbers were presented to the NFPA committees and they put fleecing you, your department and your city before reasonable fact based policy recomendations.

  14. #64
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    When I say ringer washer, this is what I meant. This is what we could afford and would take the abuse of washing gear.
    Thanks, I know what a wringer washer is. We had one in the house growing up.

    The point is that anything with an agitator will shorten the service life of your gear. IOW, a "bargain" washer is actually costing you money in lost service life for some of the most important equipment in the firehouse.

    I'd worry less about the abuse the washer takes from the gear and more about the abuse the gear takes from the washer.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  15. #65
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    I wonder if they'll see a drop in sales in the leather helmets. I was seriously thinking of buying one, but if I can't use it for my career I might as well just keep using whats issued. Wonder how many other guys share my feelings.

  16. #66
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DM
    I'd worry less about the abuse the washer takes from the gear and more about the abuse the gear takes from the washer.
    Damn... I have to agree with DM on this one.

    Just because your PPE is seemingly tough stuff, it is rather fragile against an agitator. It is kind of like beating the crap out of it.

    Remember, your PPE is your 2nd skin... if you damage it, it won't be worth spit when you really need it.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. natural finish on leather
    By chingon in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-07-2005, 09:16 PM
  2. Leather Helmet Re-Furbs
    By ENG23PFD in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-15-2001, 04:38 AM
  3. Leather Helmet Re-Furbs
    By ENG23PFD in forum Career/Paid Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-15-2001, 04:37 AM
  4. Leather Helmet Re-Furbs
    By ENG23PFD in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-15-2001, 04:31 AM
  5. Thermal Cameras and the like
    By Diane in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-30-1999, 10:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register