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    Default Department won grant, promised not to sell old fire truck to any other fire dept

    Our rural department is in the market for a used fire truck. Some searching on a fire equipment broker's website turned up something in our price range. The broker put us in contact with the vehicle's owner, a fire department in another state. Their reason for selling the truck is they were awarded a grant for a new truck by AFG. But it turns out that in their grant application they promised they would not sell the truck to any other fire department. They promised FEMA that they would sell it to either a dealer or a private individual.

    So our department can not buy this truck directly from the other fire department. Is it OK for the other department to sell the truck to a dealer and then for the dealer to sell it to us? This strategy was espoused by a broker. This would seem to go against the spirit of the promise the other department made to FEMA. Any comments would be appreciated.
    Thanks

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    It is my understanding that this vehicle can be sold to the broker or dealer. It is then the responsibilty of the broker or dealer to go over the unit to certify that it will still meet the NFPA standards that were in place when it was built. If you purchase this vehicle from the dealer, I would make sure that they have done what was necessary to ensure it meets the standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    It is my understanding that this vehicle can be sold to the broker or dealer. It is then the responsibilty of the broker or dealer to go over the unit to certify that it will still meet the NFPA standards that were in place when it was built. If you purchase this vehicle from the dealer, I would make sure that they have done what was necessary to ensure it meets the standards.
    It seems to me the broker is trying to circumvent the process and is merely laundering the money/truck for the department, for lack of a better term.

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    Selling it to a dealer insures that, if it is re-sold to a fire department, it will be up to NFPA standards appropriate for its year of manufacture. It's just a hedge against liability.

    There is no conflict in using the dealer as a middle man as long as it's understood that the dealer is going to mark up the selling price. This is exactly why the grant agreement requires it to be sold to a dealer in the first place.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    It seems to me the broker is trying to circumvent the process and is merely laundering the money/truck for the department, for lack of a better term.
    While that is what it appears to be, that is precisely what the grant requires they do.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    It is my understanding that this vehicle can be sold to the broker or dealer. It is then the responsibilty of the broker or dealer to go over the unit to certify that it will still meet the NFPA standards that were in place when it was built. If you purchase this vehicle from the dealer, I would make sure that they have done what was necessary to ensure it meets the standards.
    If the selling department described the truck as unsafe and needing replacement then why would you want to buy an "unsafe" piece of fire apparatus? Seems to me that there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    Technically they can sell it to the broker/dealer who then must repair/rebuild it to meet all applicable nfpa standards as of the original date of manufacture of the apparatus. It must meet all pump testing standards ,all electrical system standards and all safety standards. Then it must be certified to meet them.

    What kind of guarantee do you get when buying a "refurbed" unsafe piece thats been passed through a brokers hands???? Will it become your unsafe truck when you put your money down and the broker says you bought it :::you own it's problems.

    This is not to state that all brokers operate this way, but buyer beware!

    There was a recent similar thread where a truck replaced by AFG was sold to a used car/truck dealer, repainted and then bought by the chief who donated it to his department.
    Another questionable deal.

    Another thought:: if it smells like a fish it probably is a little stinky

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    Default Thanks for all the comments so far.

    I'm the poster of the original question. Thanks for all the comments so far.

    The issues are much clearer to me now. Is it a fair summary to say that fire departments looking for used fire trucks ought to contact "dealers" and not "brokers"? Does anybody know of any dealer websites that would sell older firetrucks, perhaps sold to dealers per FEMA requirements, but having undergone inspection and available to us without us needing to walk a fine line regarding FEMA's rules?

    Thanks again for all your help. Our department hasn't bought a truck in years so these rules are all new to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomastender View Post
    I'm the poster of the original question. Thanks for all the comments so far.

    The issues are much clearer to me now. Is it a fair summary to say that fire departments looking for used fire trucks ought to contact "dealers" and not "brokers"? Does anybody know of any dealer websites that would sell older firetrucks, perhaps sold to dealers per FEMA requirements, but having undergone inspection and available to us without us needing to walk a fine line regarding FEMA's rules?

    Thanks again for all your help. Our department hasn't bought a truck in years so these rules are all new to us.
    Thomas: glad we could help you .

    One seller that seems to facilitate a lot of used apparatus sales is firetec, they connect selling departments with buyers. They have listings for many used trucks
    http://www.firetec.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomastender View Post
    I'm the poster of the original question. Thanks for all the comments so far.

    The issues are much clearer to me now. Is it a fair summary to say that fire departments looking for used fire trucks ought to contact "dealers" and not "brokers"? Does anybody know of any dealer websites that would sell older firetrucks, perhaps sold to dealers per FEMA requirements, but having undergone inspection and available to us without us needing to walk a fine line regarding FEMA's rules?

    Thanks again for all your help. Our department hasn't bought a truck in years so these rules are all new to us.
    I believe the question remains; did you try to get a new truck through AFG? The matching requirement is probably less than what you are going to pay for a used truck and unless you are woefully short of the basic requirements to be awarded. Just curious if you pursued that route.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Default We put in for bunker gear but thought our call volume was too low for truck

    We applied for bunker gear. Our call volume is pretty low and we thought that asking for a truck might be too much. Does call volume figure heavily in AFG truck grants?

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    Two separate issues, but I have proven time and time again that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Not saying that you could get it but, an honest try, with a properly written and well thought out plan and who knows? Why settle for second hand goods without ever having tried to "grab the brass ring"? Some things to consider:

    - is the average age of your fleet more than 20 years
    - is there bad safety problems
    - high maintenance costs
    - excessive down time
    - was the truck trying to be replaced never designed specifically as a fire service vehicle ( retired milk tanker as an example)

    Not saying here that you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear but, if you want to send me a phone number or PM me through my profile I will be glad to call you and discuss your exact circumstances and give you an honest opinion on your chances.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Thomas: Make the contact with Kurt. The worst you will do is learn from him that it might be possible for your department to get a grant.
    He is a wonderful resource and shares his knowledge with all of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomastender View Post
    ...Does anybody know of any dealer websites that would sell older firetrucks...
    Ours will be appearing on govdeals.com soon...
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default AFG policy on replaced vehicles and use.

    From the AFG website FAQ section on vehicles;

    Question: In my application, I indicated my existing vehicle was unsafe and I would remove it from service. What do I need to do in order to comply with this requirement?

    AFG Answer: The unsafe vehicle cannot be used in emergency service. It cannot be sold, donated, and/or given to another department. The unsafe vehicle may be traded in, taken to the junk yard for scrap, donated to a museum, relegated to farm use, or given to a training academy as long as it will not be utilized for driver training (it could be used for training firefighters to operate the pump). In order to assure an unsafe vehicle is removed, we'll require the grantee to transfer title of the vehicle to any individual or organization that is not in the business of providing first-responder services.


    Warren
    The opinions stated herein are those of the author and in no way shape or form reflect the opinions of any organization(s) that I am in any way affiliated with unless otherwise indicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenJ View Post
    From the AFG website FAQ section on vehicles;

    Question: In my application, I indicated my existing vehicle was unsafe and I would remove it from service. What do I need to do in order to comply with this requirement?

    AFG Answer: The unsafe vehicle cannot be used in emergency service. It cannot be sold, donated, and/or given to another department. The unsafe vehicle may be traded in, taken to the junk yard for scrap, donated to a museum, relegated to farm use, or given to a training academy as long as it will not be utilized for driver training (it could be used for training firefighters to operate the pump). In order to assure an unsafe vehicle is removed, we'll require the grantee to transfer title of the vehicle to any individual or organization that is not in the business of providing first-responder services.


    Warren

    That's what i was thinking. Trading in even to be refurbished, if i recall correctly, is not allowed. Keep in mind that you can apply for BOTH operations AND vehicle in the same AFG cycle so applying for turnout gear does not stop you from applying for a vehicle. Since that started there's been enough departments with dual awards i wouldn't think your chances would be hurt either.

    earl

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    now if they would just stop the trade ins that for some strange reason match the amount of the cost share.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenJ View Post
    From the AFG website FAQ section on vehicles;

    Question: In my application, I indicated my existing vehicle was unsafe and I would remove it from service. What do I need to do in order to comply with this requirement?

    AFG Answer: The unsafe vehicle cannot be used in emergency service. It cannot be sold, donated, and/or given to another department. The unsafe vehicle may be traded in, taken to the junk yard for scrap, donated to a museum, relegated to farm use, or given to a training academy as long as it will not be utilized for driver training (it could be used for training firefighters to operate the pump). In order to assure an unsafe vehicle is removed, we'll require the grantee to transfer title of the vehicle to any individual or organization that is not in the business of providing first-responder services.




    Warren
    Not me but I agree with the other Warren ... ha ah

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    We had just won a vehicle grant and the way I see it, we are not even allowed to sell/trade to any sort of fire service, dealer or broker. Now if I was looking for a used vehicle and knew of one that took the long way around the sales arena to a dealer, I would not buy it any way. If it was replaced due to obsolete, unsafe, non NFPA---I would stay away from it. Who really cares if the old truck was brought up to NFPA standards as of 1984 or 19xx. Those standards are outdated anyway by 20-30 years for all kinds of safety reasons. Isn't that what we are after anyway? I would think you would demand the old truck be brought up to current standards, not standards of the year of the truck.

    2 cents.............

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    First of all, as the BUYER of the used fire apparatus, you have no obligation or responsibility to the AFG program. The SELLER is the one walking the fine line by selling it to a broker or dealer knowing that it will most likely find it's way back into emergency service.

    Pay close attention to what greenacres and ktb are saying. You can and should be applying for an AFG for a new engine every year. Whether or not you apply for turnouts the same year. Whether or not you think you have a chance of being awarded. Make the AFG program say no. Don't do it for them by not applying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf8552 View Post
    First of all, as the BUYER of the used fire apparatus, you have no obligation or responsibility to the AFG program. The SELLER is the one walking the fine line by selling it to a broker or dealer knowing that it will most likely find it's way back into emergency service.

    \.
    I personally think both the buyer and the seller should consider the word, what is it...

    INTEGRITY

    IMHO.

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    LVFD--absolutely right on. That's just the way life oughta be.

    As Wolf8552 stated--apply for a vehicle every year and let the program say no. First off--you can't win if you don't play.

    Second--the AFG Program has to secure Congressional funding every year. If departments don't apply for what they need, the view of Congress (rightly) is that there is not enough need to fund. That's one sure way to help funding move elsewhere.

    Third--by applying you will have the opportunity to request a letter of support from your Congressman. While it doesn't carry any direct weight on awards, it does help your Representative understand the need to continue fund the program.

    Fourth--in addition to Congressman Donnelly, we're in the habit of requesting letters of support from our Senators and Township Trustee along with a few other people. Again, no direct help to the application but if we have a need and i'm doing my best work on the AFG app--no point in not sharing that with other folks in the funding stream.

    One of my favorite "Kurt" lines--If people don't know you need something, there's no way they'll help you get it (paraphrased).

    Good luck!!
    earl

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    Kurt; I have two questions.
    1.Is your contact number still the same as on your web site since you may be running your own company now?
    2.Do you have any open slots for this fall? Like I said before we have some of the best golf courses in the south and a 750 mile shoreline lake to play in. That is if you donít mine mixing business with pleasure.

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    once title changes hands and the obligation not to sell directly to another fire dept. is met by the grant awardee then whatever the new owner does has no restriction placed upon them since they are not party to the grant process.

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    Skimmed this so may have been already said but looked like it was contradicted up until the post right above. As of right now while I'm typing, the title can be transferred to a broker during a sale. Then per DOT and other regulations the broker has to refurbish the vehicle to roadworthy condition and NFPA requirements in order to sell it as a fire truck.

    The liability is not on the AFG award winner to verify that the broker does this. Once the broker takes possession/title the seller is no longer liable for what happens.

    But as the purchaser I would sure want to see the list of things that the broker fixed/upgraded on it prior to making that purchase.

    Also the dealer just can't be a broker in the true sense and just make the sales arrangement taking temporary title for 30 minutes. That's the type of stuff that will get both the buyer, seller, and broker into some legal issues.
    Brian P. Vickers
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