1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    1,311

    Default Hydrants with dual steamer outlets. Anyone have any experience or details?

    I was searching for information on hydrants with two 4" outlets and found this post from and 8 year old thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by HFDCLanger View Post
    engine968:True, 2 1/2" ports will restrict your flow (good hydrant maintenance and dual steamers are a good fix to that problem), but so does using 4" over 5".
    Anyone got any details?

    Do you think a dual steamer hydrant, provided it was on an adequate main and had a substantial barrel, would provide more H2O than a traditional 4x2x2?

    firehydrant.org's website seems to have crashed today, so I can't look there. The google cache at least lets me read the data. They mention 3,000 GPM.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    Do you think a dual steamer hydrant, provided it was on an adequate main and had a substantial barrel, would provide more H2O than a traditional 4x2x2?
    In theory? Sure it could. In practice? I'm not sure you're going to find too many situations where such a monster main and hydrant barrel exist nor many good reasons to tap two steamers from one hydrant instead of one steamer each from two seperate hydrants. (Any such theoretical water system with such monster mains and hydrant barrels would surely have close spaced hydrants, right?)
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  3. #3
    Savage / Hyneman 08'

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    450

    Default

    I've seen a few municipalities around here go with double steamers. Yes higher flows are one reason.

    One other reason is because we don't need the 2 1/2 ports on a hydrant for anything anymore. Since the cost of a double steamer is about the same price ( I was told within $10, no storz fittings just 4 1/2 theads ) why not get a hydrant with what you use on it?

    It works for them. It might not for you.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    CGITCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sumner IA
    Posts
    496

    Default

    I would be happy to see all of our hydrants with one steamer outlet. Let alone two. Makes it extremely difficult to use LDH without a steamer on all our hydrants. With the dual steamers, can you theoretically hook two engines to one hydrant?

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    wouldnt you get close to the same flow by using the 2 2.5 oulets in addition to the steamer connection? As far as hooking two engines to one hydrant just run one to the steamer and the other to the 2 2.5 outlets. I would think the flows would be close to the same as running with two steamer outlets. This is just a wild ***** educated guess, i would have to run the numbers to be sure.

    If all else fails just dual pump the hydrant! That is always fun.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    wouldnt you get close to the same flow by using the 2 2.5 oulets in addition to the steamer connection? As far as hooking two engines to one hydrant just run one to the steamer and the other to the 2 2.5 outlets. I would think the flows would be close to the same as running with two steamer outlets. This is just a wild ***** educated guess, i would have to run the numbers to be sure.

    If all else fails just dual pump the hydrant! That is always fun.
    Assuming you have the mains to supply it, a dual steamer hydrant will definitely deliver more water than using one steamer and a 2.5" outlet. You are reducing a major choke point for water flow. Keep in mind that you need more than three 2.5" openings to equal the area of a 4.5" opening. The area of a 2.5" circle is 4.909 square inches vs 15.904 square inches for a 4.5" one.

    If you are going to use a 2.5" outlet on a hydrant for an additional intake, use a 2.5" to LDH adapter and run LDH from the outlet to the pump. You will get vastly increased flow over running a 2.5" or 3" line. We found in some cases we could get nearly 1000 GPM through a 2.5" hydrant outlet through 4" LDH. To be fair, my city has an excellent water supply system though.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    wouldnt you get close to the same flow by using the 2 2.5 oulets in addition to the steamer connection?
    Odds are you'd get maximum flow the hydrnat can offer just by using LDH on the steamer and one 2 1/2 outlet unless it's a monster hydrant on a monster main.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johngagemn View Post
    You will get vastly increased flow over running a 2.5" or 3" line. We found in some cases we could get nearly 1000 GPM through a 2.5" hydrant outlet through 4" LDH.
    For some reason 1044 gpm sticks in my head as a theoretical max for a 2 1/2 outlet on a typical hydrant.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    For some reason 1044 gpm sticks in my head as a theoretical max for a 2 1/2 outlet on a typical hydrant.
    Nah, you can get more than that. the 2.5" opening on a hydrant is somewhat like a 2.5" smooth bore nozzle. If you have 60 psi flowing from the outlet you'd be getting 1168 GPM. I should have clarified that I meant we got nearly 1000 GPM in addition to what we were getting from the 4" connected to the steamer outlet on the hydrant. We were actually getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 2600 GPM from that hydrant with the two lines connected.

    I remember that, at some point, we tested it running a third 4" from the second 2.5" outlet as well, but I don't recall what we got out of it at that point. We did all of this testing as part of some engineering drills like 12 years ago.
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johngagemn View Post
    Nah, you can get more than that. the 2.5" opening on a hydrant is somewhat like a 2.5" smooth bore nozzle.
    I know you can, it was just a figure that stuck in my head for one typical setup. I recall it from the early days of LDH and some experiments to see what the best way to get water into LDH from a hydrant with no steamer.
    (single reducing adaptor, 2 bootlegged 2 1/2"s, etc.) It worked out that a single reducing adaptor provided the best flow.

    I remember that, at some point, we tested it running a third 4" from the second 2.5" outlet as well, but I don't recall what we got out of it at that point. We did all of this testing as part of some engineering drills like 12 years ago.
    My hunch is that you'd lose ground with 3 lines due to the increased turbulence in the hydrant barrel -- that was one of the factors that made a single reduce better than a bootleg.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    I know you can, it was just a figure that stuck in my head for one typical setup. I recall it from the early days of LDH and some experiments to see what the best way to get water into LDH from a hydrant with no steamer.
    (single reducing adaptor, 2 bootlegged 2 1/2"s, etc.) It worked out that a single reducing adaptor provided the best flow.



    My hunch is that you'd lose ground with 3 lines due to the increased turbulence in the hydrant barrel -- that was one of the factors that made a single reduce better than a bootleg.
    We definitely didn't lose ground, but I seem to remember the third line wasn't as effective as the second one was, which makes logical sense. I just checked with our hydrant guys in the office and they said the standpipe we use on the traffic hydrants we make is 7.5" ID. IIRC the valve opening at the main is like 5.25".
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    As I recall there was a thread on here a couple of years ago where someone did flowtest (thru a pumper) with steamer, then one 2-1/2" and plus 2x 2-1/2". Who is the flowtest variables guy?

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CGITCH View Post
    I would be happy to see all of our hydrants with one steamer outlet. Let alone two. Makes it extremely difficult to use LDH without a steamer on all our hydrants. With the dual steamers, can you theoretically hook two engines to one hydrant?
    That's reason for jumbo siamese. 2x 2-1/2" to 5"S and you have decent hydrant pressure you may not even need a pumper at the hydrant.

    I'll loan you one if you want to try it out. We have a 3x 2-1/2" valved x 5"S siamese we use for relay pump from our fire pond (no large diameter discharge plumbing on the rural pumpers in the area).

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Greensboro, NC USA
    Posts
    1,311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    For some reason 1044 gpm sticks in my head as a theoretical max for a 2 1/2 outlet on a typical hydrant.
    I've gotten 1,500 GPM from a 2" outlet alone using a 2x4" adapter and 50' of 4" hose. The flow was measured using a 2" pitot set used for service testing.
    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    As I recall there was a thread on here a couple of years ago where someone did flowtest (thru a pumper) with steamer, then one 2-1/2" and plus 2x 2-1/2". Who is the flowtest variables guy?
    Maximizing Hydrant Connections - Water Flow Test Results
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Exclamation You may need 2.5" ports

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    One other reason is because we don't need the 2 1/2 ports on a hydrant for anything anymore. Since the cost of a double steamer is about the same price ( I was told within $10, no storz fittings just 4 1/2 theads ) why not get a hydrant with what you use on it?
    Our water company asked us about the dual steamers and we stuck with the old standby's. The reason is that we've always required our personnel to dress hydrants with a 2.5" gate as well as the steamer. This allows us to clamp off the LDH line when the hydrant stem breaks (yes they do and not as rare as you'd think). Without the ability to open a valve and redirect the water, your pump is stuck on the hydrant until the shutoff is found and close. Not to mention the obvious ability to add the second line via a 2.5"x5" Storz.The first reason we've used more often than the latter. You could buy a 5" valve $$$$$!

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    CGITCH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sumner IA
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    That's reason for jumbo siamese. 2x 2-1/2" to 5"S and you have decent hydrant pressure you may not even need a pumper at the hydrant.

    I'll loan you one if you want to try it out. We have a 3x 2-1/2" valved x 5"S siamese we use for relay pump from our fire pond (no large diameter discharge plumbing on the rural pumpers in the area).
    I would love to get the guys to try it out but I doubt it would happen. What town in Iowa are you in anyway?

  17. #17
    Savage / Hyneman 08'

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Our water company asked us about the dual steamers and we stuck with the old standby's. The reason is that we've always required our personnel to dress hydrants with a 2.5" gate as well as the steamer. This allows us to clamp off the LDH line when the hydrant stem breaks (yes they do and not as rare as you'd think). Without the ability to open a valve and redirect the water, your pump is stuck on the hydrant until the shutoff is found and close. Not to mention the obvious ability to add the second line via a 2.5"x5" Storz.The first reason we've used more often than the latter. You could buy a 5" valve $$$$$!
    That is exactly the way most around here dress a hydrant. Those with double steamers get a 5" valve instead of the 2.5" valve.

    5" has become the standard in this area for anything other than attack lines. Hydrant to engine, relay pumping, tanker filling, all get 5". The trend also includes doing away with the fittings for the smaller supply hose as well. Double steamer hydrants, LDH discharges for relay pumping, no more siamese into 5".

    Some area depts are still adapting from 4", but 3" for supply went away a while ago. Now we only use 3" to supply the blitz monitors.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,242

    Default

    Photo of an hydrant with the first line off and a gate on the other outlet, and its being supplied.


    If all you need is a 2-1/2"; 3" or 3-1/2" line, put a reducer on the hydrant nipple.
    Last edited by CaptOldTimer; 07-08-2011 at 01:53 PM.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Photo of an hydrant with the first line off and a gate on the other outlet, and its being supplied.


    If all you need is a 2-1/2"; 3" or 3-1/2" line, put a reducer on the hydrant nipple.

    Might want to buy some new hose gaskets before next winter! LOL
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffmedcbk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    781

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Photo of an hydrant with the first line off and a gate on the other outlet, and its being supplied.


    If all you need is a 2-1/2"; 3" or 3-1/2" line, put a reducer on the hydrant nipple.
    is that chicago? i remember they run dual steamers.

    also, any columbus, ohio guys out there? they run single steamer hydrants without 2.5"s. why is that?
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johngagemn View Post
    Might want to buy some new hose gaskets before next winter! LOL
    Little LATE for that,hehe T.C.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    is that chicago? i remember they run dual steamers.

    also, any columbus, ohio guys out there? they run single steamer hydrants without 2.5"s. why is that?


    That it tis my friend.

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    Jonnee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,256

    Default

    This is a Corey double 4" steamer hydrant. Note the right outlet with the 'shoulder' behind the outlet. That is a gate valve which was operated by the nut seen on the top of the hydrant. This hydrant was made in the late 1800's!

    A engine company could attached a suction to the non-gated outlet and then another engine could connect to the gated outlet. They would be sure the gate was closed before removing the cap and once connected open the gate to receive water.

    These hydrants were noted to have at least 90 PSI Static Pressure and seldom would drop no more than 10 pounds, flowing 1500 GPM or more.


    The yellow caps meant it was on a water main of at least 12 inches. In fact this was on a 20 inch main.


    `
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    This is a Corey double 4" steamer hydrant. Note the right outlet with the 'shoulder' behind the outlet. That is a gate valve which was operated by the nut seen on the top of the hydrant. This hydrant was made in the late 1800's!

    A engine company could attached a suction to the non-gated outlet and then another engine could connect to the gated outlet. They would be sure the gate was closed before removing the cap and once connected open the gate to receive water.

    These hydrants were noted to have at least 90 PSI Static Pressure and seldom would drop no more than 10 pounds, flowing 1500 GPM or more.


    The yellow caps meant it was on a water main of at least 12 inches. In fact this was on a 20 inch main.


    `



    Aha an old baby with duel 4's.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Lealman--Major 2003 Fire leads to new hydrants
    By captstanm1 in forum Florida
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-01-2005, 05:10 PM
  2. Specifying the Location of rural hydrants
    By neiowa in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-23-2005, 04:01 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-28-2003, 10:10 AM
  4. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-28-2003, 09:50 AM
  5. Isle of Capri Asks County to Install Hydrants
    By captstanm1 in forum Florida
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-13-2003, 09:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register