1. #26
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    After reading the replies it looks like a 1 1/8 inch smooth bore will be the way we will go.
    Another option might be using a short, stacked tip arrangement where you could have both the 1-1/8 and 1-1/4 tips?

  2. #27
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Try out a 2-1/2" Akron ZeroTorque (ZT). If you're married to a particular brand or style tip, get the ZT as a breakapart and use your flavor of tip.

    I've used the ZT and it does reduce the perceived workload for the nozzleman.
    Maybe on the 2-1/2 nozzle, but not so much for the smaller lines. We have some SabreJets with the ZT for our small handlines and having used them side by side with an Akron Assault Nozzle, my shift's concensus was that there was no difference in the "workload".

  3. #28
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Why is it the mosty obvious, simplest answer seems to elude so many?

    I have never used one of those "Zero Torque" nozzle gizmo's either but I guarantee you something that bulky would simply not work in the aggressive, rapidly moving the nozzle type of attack I use.
    Not knowing exactly what you're talking about, I'll defer to you, but we've had success with them with aggressive fire attacks.

    Man oh man, it would be worse than trying to lug a TFT down a hallway!!
    Well, for us the TFT's were worse, but that had more to do with the fact that they were a bit beat up and no longer flowing anywhere close to capacity.

    However, they are a good bit cumbersome to use in general. The majority of the department don't like them, but we were glad to have them over nozzles flowing less than 100 gpm.

    I'm really glad that our most recent nozzle acquisition was the simple smoothbores that I was pushing for last time.

  4. #29
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by insertclevername View Post
    Sure you could use a 2 1/2 as an attack line, and I've had the training, and it works great on the training ground. However it has been my experience (and we run with a 2 1/2 pre-connect) that on the fire ground the blitz line works best for a quick knock down or exposure protection. Organizing a 4 man team to advance a 2 1/2 when you could advance 2 1 3/4's with half as many seems a little impractical.

    Just my opinion.
    What constitutes practical? That will change at every fire. What is impractical is pulling 2 smaller lines when you have the fire load to warrany pulling 1 larger one.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  5. #30
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Maybe on the 2-1/2 nozzle, but not so much for the smaller lines. We have some SabreJets with the ZT for our small handlines and having used them side by side with an Akron Assault Nozzle, my shift's concensus was that there was no difference in the "workload".
    Yikes. We have one of these things floating around and it stays on the front trashline. No way I would go inside with one.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  6. #31
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Yikes. We have one of these things floating around and it stays on the front trashline. No way I would go inside with one.
    The model we have isn't too bad (other than the length and weight issue) if you know how to use it right.

  7. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Maybe on the 2-1/2 nozzle, but not so much for the smaller lines. We have some SabreJets with the ZT for our small handlines and having used them side by side with an Akron Assault Nozzle, my shift's concensus was that there was no difference in the "workload".
    Above I mentioned 2-1/2" as most likely application. For an apples to apples you need to be comparing 2 nozzles with same reaction force.

    You're getting a max of 135gpm out of a Saberjet @ 100psi nozzle reaction 68lbf. Wide range of possible on an Assault

    A Turbojet at 250gpm @ 100psi reaction force is 126lbf. One FF can man it with a ZT. (Not going to advance it).

    Buying 75psi tips, in particular for the 1-1/2" nozzles is also a smart move to reduce workload.

    I'm using 1-1/2" ZT breakapart with smoothbore for CAFS lines. The additional nozzle reaction of CAFS line vs TJ with POW puts reaction force just over the comfortable range for one FF. (We're a rural FD and often end up with one FF on exterior). Also have pistolgrip breakaparts with smoothbore for CAFS lines for entry teams (less likely for CAFS)

  8. #33
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    My gripe with the SabreJet nozzles is the same one I have with the TFT selectable bale nozzles. They take every bit of information that we teach rookies about nozzle control and toss it out the window. Right to fight, bale all the way open or closed, all are not applicable with these nozzles.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  9. #34
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    My gripe with the SabreJet nozzles is the same one I have with the TFT selectable bale nozzles. They take every bit of information that we teach rookies about nozzle control and toss it out the window. Right to fight, bale all the way open or closed, all are not applicable with these nozzles.
    Not exactly true with the model that we have. Ours only operate one stream or the other. The "fog nozzle" position does not go down to a "straight stream", but rather a narrow fog pattern. As such, it is unusable for direct fire attack. So the only choice is to open up all the way for the smoothbore position.

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Above I mentioned 2-1/2" as most likely application. For an apples to apples you need to be comparing 2 nozzles with same reaction force.
    Our comparison was nothing close to scientific, just opinion and as I stated, the consensus was that the ZT option provided no distinguishable value on the small handlines.

    You're getting a max of 135gpm out of a Saberjet @ 100psi nozzle reaction 68lbf.
    Actually I'm not. We do not operate them anywhere close to 100psi. For fire attack, we operate using the "smoothbore" position at 50psi (give or take depending on who's pumping) and based on pump charts, we should be flowing upwards of 180gpm with the 15/16" tip insert.

  11. #36
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Above I mentioned 2-1/2" as most likely application. For an apples to apples you need to be comparing 2 nozzles with same reaction force.

    You're getting a max of 135gpm out of a Saberjet @ 100psi nozzle reaction 68lbf. Wide range of possible on an Assault

    A Turbojet at 250gpm @ 100psi reaction force is 126lbf. One FF can man it with a ZT. (Not going to advance it).

    I can handle a 2 1/2 line by myself without the zero torque. Of course not advancing it. I demonstrate 4 different methods for a single firefighter to handle flowing a 2 1/2.

    Standing with the hose riding along the inside of the thigh. (Or using a rope hose tool)
    Kneeling on the hose.
    Laying on the hose.
    The sit on loop method.

    Advance the line dry to the point of use and using one of those methods one firefighter can make a heavy hit with a 2 1/2. You don't need the ZT to make it work.


    Buying 75psi tips, in particular for the 1-1/2" nozzles is also a smart move to reduce workload.

    Even smarter for 2 and 2 1/2 inch lines. Although for heavy flows a smoothbore is still a better choice.

    I'm using 1-1/2" ZT breakapart with smoothbore for CAFS lines. The additional nozzle reaction of CAFS line vs TJ with POW puts reaction force just over the comfortable range for one FF. (We're a rural FD and often end up with one FF on exterior). Also have pistolgrip breakaparts with smoothbore for CAFS lines for entry teams (less likely for CAFS)
    Proper hose handling techniques eliminate the need for gizmos.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  12. #37
    Forum Member
    L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    I like stacked tips 1, 1-1/4, 1-1/2. At least to me it feels like I have more control of the nozzle with them. I use a wide stance with my left foot forward the hose is in a S with the bale out in front with my left hand on it and my right hand is near my hip.

    I used to not like a 2.5, I would use a 1.75 with a higher flow 225-250 which will put out alot of fire. But once I got used to the 2.5 I like them alot more, And it can sure move some water
    Bring enough hose.

  13. #38
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    I like stacked tips 1, 1-1/4, 1-1/2. At least to me it feels like I have more control of the nozzle with them. I use a wide stance with my left foot forward the hose is in a S with the bale out in front with my left hand on it and my right hand is near my hip.

    I used to not like a 2.5, I would use a 1.75 with a higher flow 225-250 which will put out alot of fire. But once I got used to the 2.5 I like them alot more, And it can sure move some water
    Did you really mean to say 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inch tips? The standard set has a 1 (209 gpm), 1 1/8 (265 gpm), and a 1 1/4 (326 gpm) inch tips. At 50 psi NP, according to the charts, your 1 1/2 inch tip would be flowing 472 gpm.

    if this is correct please explain how you use that set -up because I am sincerely interested.

    Thanks.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  14. #39
    Forum Member
    L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Did you really mean to say 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inch tips? The standard set has a 1 (209 gpm), 1 1/8 (265 gpm), and a 1 1/4 (326 gpm) inch tips. At 50 psi NP, according to the charts, your 1 1/2 inch tip would be flowing 472 gpm.

    if this is correct please explain how you use that set -up because I am sincerely interested.

    Thanks.
    I left out the the 1 1/8 tip, but we do use the 1 1/2 tip sometimes. We don't have any of the fancy portable monitors, So if we have heavy fire and can't get good position with the deck gun we use the loop and sit method with the 1 1/2 tip.

    The only problem is the nozzle man can really waste some water if he doesn't get it in the right place.

    It works good for us and it can be deployed fast.
    Bring enough hose.

  15. #40
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    I left out the the 1 1/8 tip, but we do use the 1 1/2 tip sometimes. We don't have any of the fancy portable monitors, So if we have heavy fire and can't get good position with the deck gun we use the loop and sit method with the 1 1/2 tip.

    The only problem is the nozzle man can really waste some water if he doesn't get it in the right place.

    It works good for us and it can be deployed fast.
    I like that idea. Do you keep a quad stack that includes the 1 1/2 inch tip or is that a seperate tip that is only put on the nozzle in those circumstances?
    .
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  16. #41
    Forum Member
    L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I like that idea. Do you keep a quad stack that includes the 1 1/2 inch tip or is that a seperate tip that is only put on the nozzle in those circumstances?
    .
    The 1 1/2 tip is the last in the stack. When the bulk of the fire is knocked down then you can size back down to the 1 inch, or switch to a 1.75 line if you wish.

    I would like to do a test one day on a practice burn... On a structure that is well involved let's say 50-75%. Two 1.75 lines @200 each vs a single 2.5 @400.

    Just to see
    Bring enough hose.

  17. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    The 1 1/2 tip is the last in the stack. When the bulk of the fire is knocked down then you can size back down to the 1 inch, or switch to a 1.75 line if you wish.

    I would like to do a test one day on a practice burn... On a structure that is well involved let's say 50-75%. Two 1.75 lines @200 each vs a single 2.5 @400.

    Just to see
    You should do the test, as a visual lesson always seems to be the most memorable. But, just think about it. Water converts to steam when exposed to 212 F. Two streams have far more surface area to convert rapidly, than does the single equal stream of comparable pattern. For most accurate tests you should use solid bores on both the twin 1.75" and the single 2.5". As of course a useless 2.5" fog nozzle on wide fog, could skew the results against two 1.75" SB's.

  18. #43
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You should do the test, as a visual lesson always seems to be the most memorable. But, just think about it. Water converts to steam when exposed to 212 F. Two streams have far more surface area to convert rapidly, than does the single equal stream of comparable pattern. For most accurate tests you should use solid bores on both the twin 1.75" and the single 2.5". As of course a useless 2.5" fog nozzle on wide fog, could skew the results against two 1.75" SB's.
    The advantage of the one LARGE stream over 2 little ones is surviving intact through the heat to get to the heart of the fire. A big, high heat fire will turn the lesser stream to steam before it ever really gets to the fire.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  19. #44
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post

    I would like to do a test one day on a practice burn... On a structure that is well involved let's say 50-75%. Two 1.75 lines @200 each vs a single 2.5 @400.

    Just to see
    Are you talking about an offensive or defensive attack for your experiment?

  20. #45
    Forum Member
    L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Are you talking about an offensive or defensive attack for your experiment?
    For us 50% or more is almost always a defensive attack, at least at first. Once the fire is under control then if the structure is deemed safe then we will go in and finish it.
    Bring enough hose.

  21. #46
    Forum Member
    L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You should do the test, as a visual lesson always seems to be the most memorable. But, just think about it. Water converts to steam when exposed to 212 F. Two streams have far more surface area to convert rapidly, than does the single equal stream of comparable pattern. For most accurate tests you should use solid bores on both the twin 1.75" and the single 2.5". As of course a useless 2.5" fog nozzle on wide fog, could skew the results against two 1.75" SB's.
    We have 3 houses that we are getting ready to use over the next year or so, Two of them are really close in size and construction.

    I figured that once we are done with burning out all the rooms we could throw some pallets in there light it off, let it get rolling real good, then hit it hard. One house with the 2.5 which will be stacked tip smoothbore. The other will be two 1.75s with sm30 nozzles @ 200 each.

    I hope we can get it done anyways
    Bring enough hose.

  22. #47
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    For us 50% or more is almost always a defensive attack, at least at first. Once the fire is under control then if the structure is deemed safe then we will go in and finish it.
    So then you're talking about a defensive attack for your experiment?

    Just wondering because I think it'd be interesting to do your experiment for an offensive attack. Some people I've come across talk about pulling the 2-1/2 for a residential job with a good bit of fire showing (2+ rooms off). I'd be curious to see under identical conditions if 3-4 FFs operating a single 2-1/2 would provide a faster knockdown than 4 FFs operating two 1-3/4 lines.

    Would the higher GPM of the large line provide a significant advantage over the maneuverability of the small lines and the ability to fight the fire in two places at the same time?

  23. #48
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TVFR9923 View Post
    You might want to take a look at the "Blitz Attack" Vindicator nozzle.

    http://1ststriketech.com/
    Cast another vote for the Vindicator. Weird looking nozzle but delivers a GREAT punch in a easily handled package. We have three and are well pleased with their performance. T.c.

  24. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The advantage of the one LARGE stream over 2 little ones is surviving intact through the heat to get to the heart of the fire. A big, high heat fire will turn the lesser stream to steam before it ever really gets to the fire.
    That wasn't clear from my post?

  25. #50
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    While not exactly what we're talking about here, we worked a third alarm warehouse fire yesterday. At one point an interior 1.75" line that had been stretched in for small fire had to retreat from the building as the 200 gpm proved ineffective against the rapidly growing fire in a 75x20x8' pile of old wooden lobster traps on a mezzanine. A 2.5" line was brought into the area with a 250 gpm fog tip which was also determined to be ineffective.

    My only real comment about this, is that it seems to me to be inefficient to bring a 2.5" flowing just 50 gpm more than the 1.75" line? Why not have the 2.5" tipped out with a 1.25" SB tip to flow 325 to see some real gain in BTU killing power?

    I should note that the line with the fog tip was off a M/A engine, but we too have them in the engines, though SB's are the preferred nozzles. Needless to say two aerial master stream, two 2.5" and one 500 gpm attack monitor finally controlled the fire, which at one point could have been killed with a garden hose had it been at the ready when the small area of fire was discovered.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Fireground Tricks of the Trade.....
    By VinnieB in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 149
    Last Post: 07-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  2. ISO Company Personnel
    By FIRE549 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-16-2007, 06:15 PM
  3. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 08:41 PM
  4. Structural nozzle choice for Classs A CAFS?
    By scottp711 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-07-2001, 01:54 PM
  5. The Vindicator , I saw it and it works
    By BIG PAULIE in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 05-04-2001, 11:47 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register