1. #51
    Forum Member
    L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While not exactly what we're talking about here, we worked a third alarm warehouse fire yesterday. At one point an interior 1.75" line that had been stretched in for small fire had to retreat from the building as the 200 gpm proved ineffective against the rapidly growing fire in a 75x20x8' pile of old wooden lobster traps on a mezzanine. A 2.5" line was brought into the area with a 250 gpm fog tip which was also determined to be ineffective.

    My only real comment about this, is that it seems to me to be inefficient to bring a 2.5" flowing just 50 gpm more than the 1.75" line? Why not have the 2.5" tipped out with a 1.25" SB tip to flow 325 to see some real gain in BTU killing power?

    I should note that the line with the fog tip was off a M/A engine, but we too have them in the engines, though SB's are the preferred nozzles. Needless to say two aerial master stream, two 2.5" and one 500 gpm attack monitor finally controlled the fire, which at one point could have been killed with a garden hose had it been at the ready when the small area of fire was discovered.
    I hate a fog tip on a 2.5, and yes if 200 gpm is not slowing the growth of the fire then I would start thinking in the 400-500 range.


    One of our engines has a fog nozzle that is fixed @ 200...... Talk about worthless
    Bring enough hose.

  2. #52
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While not exactly what we're talking about here, we worked a third alarm warehouse fire yesterday. At one point an interior 1.75" line that had been stretched in for small fire had to retreat from the building as the 200 gpm proved ineffective against the rapidly growing fire in a 75x20x8' pile of old wooden lobster traps on a mezzanine. A 2.5" line was brought into the area with a 250 gpm fog tip which was also determined to be ineffective.

    My only real comment about this, is that it seems to me to be inefficient to bring a 2.5" flowing just 50 gpm more than the 1.75" line? Why not have the 2.5" tipped out with a 1.25" SB tip to flow 325 to see some real gain in BTU killing power?

    I should note that the line with the fog tip was off a M/A engine, but we too have them in the engines, though SB's are the preferred nozzles. Needless to say two aerial master stream, two 2.5" and one 500 gpm attack monitor finally controlled the fire, which at one point could have been killed with a garden hose had it been at the ready when the small area of fire was discovered.
    Hard to beat a well placed monitor used in conjunction with a GOOD ladderpipe(or Tower cannon). That with a couple well placed Deuces usually discourages MOST fires. At least in a bldg that size. Looked like a GOOD job,how many pieces and personnel did you wind up with? T.C.

  3. #53
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,862

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Hard to beat a well placed monitor used in conjunction with a GOOD ladderpipe(or Tower cannon). That with a couple well placed Deuces usually discourages MOST fires. At least in a bldg that size. Looked like a GOOD job,how many pieces and personnel did you wind up with? T.C.
    Operating: Three engines, two aerials, about 30-35 personnel. Three more engines staged in the adjacent parking area. Your (our?) boy ran the tower bucket. (very well I might add)

    Frustrating fire as we had it all be KO'd early and the small fire on the mezzanine took off before the crew could stretch in on it. Crews work hard for a long time and never let up. We had many obstacles such as forcing overhead doors only to find they entered into "home made refrigeration units and wouldn't grant access to the fire overhead. Certainly some lessons to be learned, but all in all a real good job.

  4. #54
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Looked good on the video.Funny thing about your and my town,nothing is ever as it seems. And often manpower can be stacked against us. Glad to hear my Protégé did well. Crew can do attitude is prevalent in both Towns(cities)and has been the backbone of many good stops(and the Village still standing).Nothing like a nice DRY lobster trap(s) to help your problem along. Mezzanines don't help,limited access and ALWAY bad working conditions. You gonna make the journey on Corins next visit? T.C.

  5. #55
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,050

    Default

    I am still amazed that 2 inch hose isn't catching on more. We do have a low pressure combo nozzle rated at 200 gpm as the primary nozzle, but we can dump that and go right to a 1 1/4 inch slug tip and we flow 300 gpm at about 45 psi through that. If that doesn't do it we are going with an Elkhart RAM attached to 3 inch hose and flowing 500 gpm interior.

    All fires eventually burn down to small line fires. I just prefer to kick its *** sooner with big flow handlines, versus later when it burns down to lesser capabilities.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  6. #56
    Forum Member
    L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am still amazed that 2 inch hose isn't catching on more. We do have a low pressure combo nozzle rated at 200 gpm as the primary nozzle, but we can dump that and go right to a 1 1/4 inch slug tip and we flow 300 gpm at about 45 psi through that. If that doesn't do it we are going with an Elkhart RAM attached to 3 inch hose and flowing 500 gpm interior.

    All fires eventually burn down to small line fires. I just prefer to kick its *** sooner with big flow handlines, versus later when it burns down to lesser capabilities.
    The idea of a 2 inch hose sounds good, But I don't know any departments around here that use it. I do however see alot that have 1.75 crosslays with nozzles that only go up to 125 gpm, why have 1.75 and only flow 125? Just use 1.5.

    If I remember right a 1 1/4 tip will flow around 400 gpm at 80 psi, is this something 2 inch hose could do or would the friction loss be to great?
    Bring enough hose.

  7. #57
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    The idea of a 2 inch hose sounds good, But I don't know any departments around here that use it. I do however see alot that have 1.75 crosslays with nozzles that only go up to 125 gpm, why have 1.75 and only flow 125? Just use 1.5.

    If I remember right a 1 1/4 tip will flow around 400 gpm at 80 psi, is this something 2 inch hose could do or would the friction loss be to great?
    By formula the the friction loss for 2 inch hose flowing 400 gpm is 130 psi per hundred feet of hose. This would make the engine pressure 340 psi. I think most people would believe that is a wee bit excessive. Of course the formulas are always accurate with some hose brands. How we set our EP's was to use a flow meter and an inline pressure gauge.

    Maybe the answer is to use lengths of 3 inch hose to feed your final 100 feet of 2 inch attack line. At 400 gpm the FL in 3 inch hose is 13 psi per 100 feet. So if the NP is 80 and the FL of the 2 inch is 130, you could go another 350 feet before you exceeded 250 EP. So you could have a 450 foot attack line.

    We have 200 and 300 foot 2 inch preconnects, and a 400 foot 3 inch dead lay with a gated wye and 100 feet of 2 inch connected to it. With testing we felt 300 gpm was the limit of practicality for what we were going to do.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  8. #58
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    By formula the the friction loss for 2 inch hose flowing 400 gpm is 130 psi per hundred feet of hose. This would make the engine pressure 340 psi. I think most people would believe that is a wee bit excessive. Of course the formulas are always accurate with some hose brands. How we set our EP's was to use a flow meter and an inline pressure gauge.

    Maybe the answer is to use lengths of 3 inch hose to feed your final 100 feet of 2 inch attack line. At 400 gpm the FL in 3 inch hose is 13 psi per 100 feet. So if the NP is 80 and the FL of the 2 inch is 130, you could go another 350 feet before you exceeded 250 EP. So you could have a 450 foot attack line.

    We have 200 and 300 foot 2 inch preconnects, and a 400 foot 3 inch dead lay with a gated wye and 100 feet of 2 inch connected to it. With testing we felt 300 gpm was the limit of practicality for what we were going to do.
    Where is your nozzle pressure of 80 coming from? Are you meaning to say 50 or are you dragging a monitor inside with you?
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Where is your nozzle pressure of 80 coming from? Are you meaning to say 50 or are you dragging a monitor inside with you?
    The 80 psi NP is the standard nozzle pressure for a master stream.

    L-Webb asked about using my 2 inch hose with a 1 1/4 inch smooth bore tip and upping the pressure from 50, which would give 326 gpm, to 80, which would give around 400 gpm.

    The idea is in a heavy hit situation you could up the NP and gain a substantial amount of water.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #60
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    20

    Default

    I agree with RD regarding the reasons for SB's on 2.5's and larger lines. The benefits on a larger line outweigh the reasons for going with a fog IMO.
    Last edited by thedozer; 01-27-2011 at 02:41 AM.

  11. #61
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thedozer View Post
    I'll give my own two cents on nozzle choice by saying a few things...

    I always enjoy when the "job" rediscovers the new-old-new way of doing things. The nozzles are just another example. smoothbore is my choice. The term STRAIGHT STREAM is not the same as what you are trying to get back to which is SOLID STREAM FROM AN OPEN BORE BARREL OF A CONTROLING NOZZLE. Second, the extinguishment process for people inside a burning building WHETHER CIVILIANS OR YOU, is to cool the source of the fuel - the fuel being gas that is given off by every solid (almost) when it reaches its individual ignition temperature. Cool below it = no gas discharge = no fuel supply = fire shut down = extinguishment. To have this effective with human beings inside the structure it has to be habitable even for fully protected firefighters. Steam - inerting the atmosphere does not allow for life to sustain itself - no air supply and heat above the tolerance of a fully protected firefighter. If you want to get into delivery of 85 percent of the water to the fuel source without dissapation to steam now you have another reason. Also you would not have nozzles with space age names and enough springs and moving parts to build half a Indy racing car.

    2 inch is better than 1 3/4 but 2.5 is best. a 2.5 line has become something passed over more and more commonly due to its weight. this is a blue collar job, we're firemen, if a few guys can't muscle it there's problems. if you have to, wait for another engine company and team them up.
    While I agree with some of what you have said there is a distinct difference between the stream from a 100 psi combo nozzle and either a 50, or 75 psi, low pressure combo nozzle. The stream from a low pressure combo nozzle has larger droplets and is very similar to a smoothbore. Is it exactly the same as a smoothbore? Not at all, but the stream maintains cohesion far better than a 100 psi straight stream.

    The truth is most line firefighters have little or no input on the type of nozzle they will use so it is prudent to learn its capabilities AND how to use it to your best advantage.

    Other than being able to lay a longer line, please tell me the difference between flowing, 200, 250, 300, or even 400 gpm through a 2 inch line versus a 2 1/2? Well other than the 2 inch hose is lighter and more easily moved with 2 or 3 firefighters than a duece and a half.

    It is one thing to tell people to man up or use another company and quite another to face the realities of today's fire service. The facts are many smaller FD's do nto have those additional manpower resources. My volly FD for example can layout 2 - 2 inch lines and flow up to 600 gpm if we chose to with 4 personnel. Or we can lay one 2 1/2 and flow up to around 400 plus gpm and use those same 4 personnel. Which seems a more efficient use of personnel to you?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  12. #62
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Penny Lane
    Posts
    390

    Default

    Question for departments using 1 1/4" smoothbores instead of 1 1/8" tips on their 2 1/2" lines:

    Do you use the 1 1/4" tip for offensive attack with a two-man hose team? How practical is this for advancement while flowing?

    We are currently evaluating our water delivery setup, and I was envisioning using the 1 1/8" for offensive attacks, and the 1 1/4" tip for defensive/stationary operation, given the limits of a two person hose team, where the officer is also the backup and the door man, all rolled into one.

  13. #63
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    N.W. Iowa
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Thanks to all that posted information, all good reading. So here it is, another questions. We have orderd and received from our local dealer that sells Akron two shutoff's with smooth bore tips. I had asked for a 1 1/8 inch tip. It has this but it is a stacked tip. The end tip that scews off has a 1/2 inch opening that says it flow I belive 50 gpm at 50 psi. If you screw this off you have the 1 1/8 inch tip, but it is very short, maybe only three inches in length. I am wondering without trying it what type of stream will come out of it. Would a longer 1 1/8 inch smooth bore tip produce a better stream?

  14. #64
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    Thanks to all that posted information, all good reading. So here it is, another questions. We have orderd and received from our local dealer that sells Akron two shutoff's with smooth bore tips. I had asked for a 1 1/8 inch tip. It has this but it is a stacked tip. The end tip that scews off has a 1/2 inch opening that says it flow I belive 50 gpm at 50 psi. If you screw this off you have the 1 1/8 inch tip, but it is very short, maybe only three inches in length. I am wondering without trying it what type of stream will come out of it. Would a longer 1 1/8 inch smooth bore tip produce a better stream?
    Did your setup come with a stream shaper?
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  15. #65
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    N.W. Iowa
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Did your setup come with a stream shaper?
    Sorry, this will be dumb, but I do not believe so. It came with the shutoff with a 2 1/2 inch inlet, 1 1/2 out let. Attached to the 1.5 inch outlet is the stack tip that is two parts, one is the 1 1/8 inch and screwed on to that is the smaller tip. Nothing else in between.

  16. #66
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    Sorry, this will be dumb, but I do not believe so. It came with the shutoff with a 2 1/2 inch inlet, 1 1/2 out let. Attached to the 1.5 inch outlet is the stack tip that is two parts, one is the 1 1/8 inch and screwed on to that is the smaller tip. Nothing else in between.
    Check for two things. Your shutoff you received may have one built in. If not, you can get a screw on stream shaper for under $50.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  17. #67
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffmedcbk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    781

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    Question for departments using 1 1/4" smoothbores instead of 1 1/8" tips on their 2 1/2" lines:

    Do you use the 1 1/4" tip for offensive attack with a two-man hose team? How practical is this for advancement while flowing?

    We are currently evaluating our water delivery setup, and I was envisioning using the 1 1/8" for offensive attacks, and the 1 1/4" tip for defensive/stationary operation, given the limits of a two person hose team, where the officer is also the backup and the door man, all rolled into one.
    we teach two seperate ways mainly here. (there are more ways to do it though)

    first the nozzleman will have the left foot forward and then kneel back on the right. the left hand is for the bale and subsequently behind the coupling at the nozzle during the attack, the right hand will grasp the hoseline and as much as possible the hose is placed up into the right armpit. the backup man will either face forward or back wards taking the reaction force. the backup man can do his job by sitting on the hose, kneeling on the hose, or just grasping onto it.

    secondly (this can be done solo also) is to place one of your right shin on top of the hose and and with about 3 feet of hose in front of the shin one man can deflect the reaction force to the ground effectively. this works well inplace of a hose loop, webbing, or sitting down on the hose since those usally mean a loss of quick mobility. fyi one hand must be place near the bend of the hose infront of the shin or the line may kink right there. the other hand is for the bale and then behind the coupling of the nozzle during the attack.

    there are other ways but hope those help.
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  18. #68
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Penny Lane
    Posts
    390

    Default

    JSMV - Yes, a longer tip would generally produce a better stream. I'd caution you to think twice before adding a stream shaper, though: you don't want to lose the intrinsic ability to flush debris.


    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Maybe the answer is to use lengths of 3 inch hose to feed your final 100 feet of 2 inch attack line.
    That's what I'm planning on doing for our static attack lines, except using 2 1/2" behind the 100' of 2".

  19. #69
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,050

    Default

    A stream shaper while a nice touch and will definitely produce a better looking, more cohesive stream over longer ranges is hardly needed for interior fire attack where ranges rarely exceed 30 feet.

    If you are using the stream for longer ranges, such as defensive surround and drown operations, then a stream shaper is probably a good idea. It will help shape the water into a more cohesive stream for better reach. But for interior attacks the small amount of flyaway or stream break-up that occurs from a shorter nozzle or slug tip is inconsequential in my humble opinion.

    My volly FD uses a 1 1/4 inch slug tip behind our combo nozzle on our 2 inch lines. We understood from the start that we would give up some range and some stream cohesiveness. But we made the decision that less weight and less length of the nozzle was more important than a better looking and longer reaching stream.

    Either way, the decision is based on local factors and you should do what works best for your circumstances.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #70
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    Question for departments using 1 1/4" smoothbores instead of 1 1/8" tips on their 2 1/2" lines:

    Do you use the 1 1/4" tip for offensive attack with a two-man hose team? How practical is this for advancement while flowing?

    We are currently evaluating our water delivery setup, and I was envisioning using the 1 1/8" for offensive attacks, and the 1 1/4" tip for defensive/stationary operation, given the limits of a two person hose team, where the officer is also the backup and the door man, all rolled into one.
    We primarily added the 1 1/4 inch slug tip as a heavy hit nozzle on our 2 inch line. We would go to that if the combo nozzle wasn't cutting it.

    If we were going to use it offensively with a 2 person crew my technique would be to kill all the fire I possibly could and then either shut the nozzle off and move up or at the very least gate it back to a more manageable flow and then advance. Witha 2 person crew trying to advance while flowing 300 plus gpm would seem almost impossible and dangerous.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  21. #71
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    JSMV - Yes, a longer tip would generally produce a better stream. I'd caution you to think twice before adding a stream shaper, though: you don't want to lose the intrinsic ability to flush debris.




    That's what I'm planning on doing for our static attack lines, except using 2 1/2" behind the 100' of 2".
    Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all for static lines. Becuase we don't use it, what size couplings does your 2" line have?
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  22. #72
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all for static lines. Becuase we don't use it, what size couplings does your 2" line have?

    The 2 inch hose we have for my volly FD has 1 1/2 inch couplings. They are 5 piece couplings.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 10-03-2010 at 08:53 PM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Fireground Tricks of the Trade.....
    By VinnieB in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 149
    Last Post: 07-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  2. ISO Company Personnel
    By FIRE549 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-16-2007, 06:15 PM
  3. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 08:41 PM
  4. Structural nozzle choice for Classs A CAFS?
    By scottp711 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-07-2001, 01:54 PM
  5. The Vindicator , I saw it and it works
    By BIG PAULIE in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 05-04-2001, 11:47 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register