Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 72
  1. #41
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I like that idea. Do you keep a quad stack that includes the 1 1/2 inch tip or is that a seperate tip that is only put on the nozzle in those circumstances?
    .
    The 1 1/2 tip is the last in the stack. When the bulk of the fire is knocked down then you can size back down to the 1 inch, or switch to a 1.75 line if you wish.

    I would like to do a test one day on a practice burn... On a structure that is well involved let's say 50-75%. Two 1.75 lines @200 each vs a single 2.5 @400.

    Just to see
    Bring enough hose.


  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    The 1 1/2 tip is the last in the stack. When the bulk of the fire is knocked down then you can size back down to the 1 inch, or switch to a 1.75 line if you wish.

    I would like to do a test one day on a practice burn... On a structure that is well involved let's say 50-75%. Two 1.75 lines @200 each vs a single 2.5 @400.

    Just to see
    You should do the test, as a visual lesson always seems to be the most memorable. But, just think about it. Water converts to steam when exposed to 212 F. Two streams have far more surface area to convert rapidly, than does the single equal stream of comparable pattern. For most accurate tests you should use solid bores on both the twin 1.75" and the single 2.5". As of course a useless 2.5" fog nozzle on wide fog, could skew the results against two 1.75" SB's.

  3. #43
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You should do the test, as a visual lesson always seems to be the most memorable. But, just think about it. Water converts to steam when exposed to 212 F. Two streams have far more surface area to convert rapidly, than does the single equal stream of comparable pattern. For most accurate tests you should use solid bores on both the twin 1.75" and the single 2.5". As of course a useless 2.5" fog nozzle on wide fog, could skew the results against two 1.75" SB's.
    The advantage of the one LARGE stream over 2 little ones is surviving intact through the heat to get to the heart of the fire. A big, high heat fire will turn the lesser stream to steam before it ever really gets to the fire.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  4. #44
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,947

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post

    I would like to do a test one day on a practice burn... On a structure that is well involved let's say 50-75%. Two 1.75 lines @200 each vs a single 2.5 @400.

    Just to see
    Are you talking about an offensive or defensive attack for your experiment?

  5. #45
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Are you talking about an offensive or defensive attack for your experiment?
    For us 50% or more is almost always a defensive attack, at least at first. Once the fire is under control then if the structure is deemed safe then we will go in and finish it.
    Bring enough hose.

  6. #46
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You should do the test, as a visual lesson always seems to be the most memorable. But, just think about it. Water converts to steam when exposed to 212 F. Two streams have far more surface area to convert rapidly, than does the single equal stream of comparable pattern. For most accurate tests you should use solid bores on both the twin 1.75" and the single 2.5". As of course a useless 2.5" fog nozzle on wide fog, could skew the results against two 1.75" SB's.
    We have 3 houses that we are getting ready to use over the next year or so, Two of them are really close in size and construction.

    I figured that once we are done with burning out all the rooms we could throw some pallets in there light it off, let it get rolling real good, then hit it hard. One house with the 2.5 which will be stacked tip smoothbore. The other will be two 1.75s with sm30 nozzles @ 200 each.

    I hope we can get it done anyways
    Bring enough hose.

  7. #47
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,947

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    For us 50% or more is almost always a defensive attack, at least at first. Once the fire is under control then if the structure is deemed safe then we will go in and finish it.
    So then you're talking about a defensive attack for your experiment?

    Just wondering because I think it'd be interesting to do your experiment for an offensive attack. Some people I've come across talk about pulling the 2-1/2 for a residential job with a good bit of fire showing (2+ rooms off). I'd be curious to see under identical conditions if 3-4 FFs operating a single 2-1/2 would provide a faster knockdown than 4 FFs operating two 1-3/4 lines.

    Would the higher GPM of the large line provide a significant advantage over the maneuverability of the small lines and the ability to fight the fire in two places at the same time?

  8. #48
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TVFR9923 View Post
    You might want to take a look at the "Blitz Attack" Vindicator nozzle.

    http://1ststriketech.com/
    Cast another vote for the Vindicator. Weird looking nozzle but delivers a GREAT punch in a easily handled package. We have three and are well pleased with their performance. T.c.

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The advantage of the one LARGE stream over 2 little ones is surviving intact through the heat to get to the heart of the fire. A big, high heat fire will turn the lesser stream to steam before it ever really gets to the fire.
    That wasn't clear from my post?

  10. #50
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,799

    Default

    While not exactly what we're talking about here, we worked a third alarm warehouse fire yesterday. At one point an interior 1.75" line that had been stretched in for small fire had to retreat from the building as the 200 gpm proved ineffective against the rapidly growing fire in a 75x20x8' pile of old wooden lobster traps on a mezzanine. A 2.5" line was brought into the area with a 250 gpm fog tip which was also determined to be ineffective.

    My only real comment about this, is that it seems to me to be inefficient to bring a 2.5" flowing just 50 gpm more than the 1.75" line? Why not have the 2.5" tipped out with a 1.25" SB tip to flow 325 to see some real gain in BTU killing power?

    I should note that the line with the fog tip was off a M/A engine, but we too have them in the engines, though SB's are the preferred nozzles. Needless to say two aerial master stream, two 2.5" and one 500 gpm attack monitor finally controlled the fire, which at one point could have been killed with a garden hose had it been at the ready when the small area of fire was discovered.

  11. #51
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While not exactly what we're talking about here, we worked a third alarm warehouse fire yesterday. At one point an interior 1.75" line that had been stretched in for small fire had to retreat from the building as the 200 gpm proved ineffective against the rapidly growing fire in a 75x20x8' pile of old wooden lobster traps on a mezzanine. A 2.5" line was brought into the area with a 250 gpm fog tip which was also determined to be ineffective.

    My only real comment about this, is that it seems to me to be inefficient to bring a 2.5" flowing just 50 gpm more than the 1.75" line? Why not have the 2.5" tipped out with a 1.25" SB tip to flow 325 to see some real gain in BTU killing power?

    I should note that the line with the fog tip was off a M/A engine, but we too have them in the engines, though SB's are the preferred nozzles. Needless to say two aerial master stream, two 2.5" and one 500 gpm attack monitor finally controlled the fire, which at one point could have been killed with a garden hose had it been at the ready when the small area of fire was discovered.
    I hate a fog tip on a 2.5, and yes if 200 gpm is not slowing the growth of the fire then I would start thinking in the 400-500 range.


    One of our engines has a fog nozzle that is fixed @ 200...... Talk about worthless
    Bring enough hose.

  12. #52
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While not exactly what we're talking about here, we worked a third alarm warehouse fire yesterday. At one point an interior 1.75" line that had been stretched in for small fire had to retreat from the building as the 200 gpm proved ineffective against the rapidly growing fire in a 75x20x8' pile of old wooden lobster traps on a mezzanine. A 2.5" line was brought into the area with a 250 gpm fog tip which was also determined to be ineffective.

    My only real comment about this, is that it seems to me to be inefficient to bring a 2.5" flowing just 50 gpm more than the 1.75" line? Why not have the 2.5" tipped out with a 1.25" SB tip to flow 325 to see some real gain in BTU killing power?

    I should note that the line with the fog tip was off a M/A engine, but we too have them in the engines, though SB's are the preferred nozzles. Needless to say two aerial master stream, two 2.5" and one 500 gpm attack monitor finally controlled the fire, which at one point could have been killed with a garden hose had it been at the ready when the small area of fire was discovered.
    Hard to beat a well placed monitor used in conjunction with a GOOD ladderpipe(or Tower cannon). That with a couple well placed Deuces usually discourages MOST fires. At least in a bldg that size. Looked like a GOOD job,how many pieces and personnel did you wind up with? T.C.

  13. #53
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,799

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Hard to beat a well placed monitor used in conjunction with a GOOD ladderpipe(or Tower cannon). That with a couple well placed Deuces usually discourages MOST fires. At least in a bldg that size. Looked like a GOOD job,how many pieces and personnel did you wind up with? T.C.
    Operating: Three engines, two aerials, about 30-35 personnel. Three more engines staged in the adjacent parking area. Your (our?) boy ran the tower bucket. (very well I might add)

    Frustrating fire as we had it all be KO'd early and the small fire on the mezzanine took off before the crew could stretch in on it. Crews work hard for a long time and never let up. We had many obstacles such as forcing overhead doors only to find they entered into "home made refrigeration units and wouldn't grant access to the fire overhead. Certainly some lessons to be learned, but all in all a real good job.

  14. #54
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Looked good on the video.Funny thing about your and my town,nothing is ever as it seems. And often manpower can be stacked against us. Glad to hear my Protégé did well. Crew can do attitude is prevalent in both Towns(cities)and has been the backbone of many good stops(and the Village still standing).Nothing like a nice DRY lobster trap(s) to help your problem along. Mezzanines don't help,limited access and ALWAY bad working conditions. You gonna make the journey on Corins next visit? T.C.

  15. #55
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    I am still amazed that 2 inch hose isn't catching on more. We do have a low pressure combo nozzle rated at 200 gpm as the primary nozzle, but we can dump that and go right to a 1 1/4 inch slug tip and we flow 300 gpm at about 45 psi through that. If that doesn't do it we are going with an Elkhart RAM attached to 3 inch hose and flowing 500 gpm interior.

    All fires eventually burn down to small line fires. I just prefer to kick its *** sooner with big flow handlines, versus later when it burns down to lesser capabilities.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  16. #56
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am still amazed that 2 inch hose isn't catching on more. We do have a low pressure combo nozzle rated at 200 gpm as the primary nozzle, but we can dump that and go right to a 1 1/4 inch slug tip and we flow 300 gpm at about 45 psi through that. If that doesn't do it we are going with an Elkhart RAM attached to 3 inch hose and flowing 500 gpm interior.

    All fires eventually burn down to small line fires. I just prefer to kick its *** sooner with big flow handlines, versus later when it burns down to lesser capabilities.
    The idea of a 2 inch hose sounds good, But I don't know any departments around here that use it. I do however see alot that have 1.75 crosslays with nozzles that only go up to 125 gpm, why have 1.75 and only flow 125? Just use 1.5.

    If I remember right a 1 1/4 tip will flow around 400 gpm at 80 psi, is this something 2 inch hose could do or would the friction loss be to great?
    Bring enough hose.

  17. #57
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    The idea of a 2 inch hose sounds good, But I don't know any departments around here that use it. I do however see alot that have 1.75 crosslays with nozzles that only go up to 125 gpm, why have 1.75 and only flow 125? Just use 1.5.

    If I remember right a 1 1/4 tip will flow around 400 gpm at 80 psi, is this something 2 inch hose could do or would the friction loss be to great?
    By formula the the friction loss for 2 inch hose flowing 400 gpm is 130 psi per hundred feet of hose. This would make the engine pressure 340 psi. I think most people would believe that is a wee bit excessive. Of course the formulas are always accurate with some hose brands. How we set our EP's was to use a flow meter and an inline pressure gauge.

    Maybe the answer is to use lengths of 3 inch hose to feed your final 100 feet of 2 inch attack line. At 400 gpm the FL in 3 inch hose is 13 psi per 100 feet. So if the NP is 80 and the FL of the 2 inch is 130, you could go another 350 feet before you exceeded 250 EP. So you could have a 450 foot attack line.

    We have 200 and 300 foot 2 inch preconnects, and a 400 foot 3 inch dead lay with a gated wye and 100 feet of 2 inch connected to it. With testing we felt 300 gpm was the limit of practicality for what we were going to do.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  18. #58
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    By formula the the friction loss for 2 inch hose flowing 400 gpm is 130 psi per hundred feet of hose. This would make the engine pressure 340 psi. I think most people would believe that is a wee bit excessive. Of course the formulas are always accurate with some hose brands. How we set our EP's was to use a flow meter and an inline pressure gauge.

    Maybe the answer is to use lengths of 3 inch hose to feed your final 100 feet of 2 inch attack line. At 400 gpm the FL in 3 inch hose is 13 psi per 100 feet. So if the NP is 80 and the FL of the 2 inch is 130, you could go another 350 feet before you exceeded 250 EP. So you could have a 450 foot attack line.

    We have 200 and 300 foot 2 inch preconnects, and a 400 foot 3 inch dead lay with a gated wye and 100 feet of 2 inch connected to it. With testing we felt 300 gpm was the limit of practicality for what we were going to do.
    Where is your nozzle pressure of 80 coming from? Are you meaning to say 50 or are you dragging a monitor inside with you?
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  19. #59
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Where is your nozzle pressure of 80 coming from? Are you meaning to say 50 or are you dragging a monitor inside with you?
    The 80 psi NP is the standard nozzle pressure for a master stream.

    L-Webb asked about using my 2 inch hose with a 1 1/4 inch smooth bore tip and upping the pressure from 50, which would give 326 gpm, to 80, which would give around 400 gpm.

    The idea is in a heavy hit situation you could up the NP and gain a substantial amount of water.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #60
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    20

    Default

    I agree with RD regarding the reasons for SB's on 2.5's and larger lines. The benefits on a larger line outweigh the reasons for going with a fog IMO.
    Last edited by thedozer; 01-27-2011 at 02:41 AM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Fireground Tricks of the Trade.....
    By VinnieB in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 149
    Last Post: 07-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  2. ISO Company Personnel
    By FIRE549 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-16-2007, 06:15 PM
  3. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 08:41 PM
  4. Structural nozzle choice for Classs A CAFS?
    By scottp711 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-07-2001, 01:54 PM
  5. The Vindicator , I saw it and it works
    By BIG PAULIE in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 05-04-2001, 11:47 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts