1. #1
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    Default Large hand line nozzle choice.

    I am wanting to ad a 2 1/2 inch attack line to our hose bed lay. We would use 200 ft. of 2 1/2 inch on a dead mans lay. The question I have is what would be everyone's choice of nozzle. I was thinking about using a 2 1/2 inch shutoff with a smooth bore nozzle, maybe a one inch or 1 1/8 inch. We have a large main street with many commercial structure's in town, also many of the newer homes being built are over 5000 sq. feet with vaulted ceilings. I am trying to convince the old timers that with a big fire you need big water.

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    type in "smothbore"


    i choose an akron brass 1 3/8th inch waterway (model 1442) no pistol grip (those belong on handguns) with a 1 and 1/4" tip. it is all about the "rate of delivery".


    hope that helps.....
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    We use a TFT Blitzfire, it works great and is very versified.
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    I agree with the Blitzfire- IF you have two seperate 2 1/2" lines on the truck. You are pretty much limited to exterior ops with a Blitzfire. Other than that, I would go with a Elkhart shutoff, stream shaper and a 1 1/8 tip. That should get you about 250 gpm.

    And as mentioned, leave the pistol grips on the trash lines and handguns.
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    whats a dead man's lay?

    Go with the smooth bore, tip size can be up to 1 1/4. The blitzfire and other pocket monitors are alright, but if you want to use one of those you have the time to remove the tip and add that. The handline you can hit from the outside and proceed inside, not going to happen with the pocket monitors.

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    We use the blitzfire with a 3" line, We don't carry and 2 1/2" on the truck. and we don't have any problem advancing the line inside, and talk about flowing some water.
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    Try to make the Pump Operator's job as easy as possible. Lets say that you are running 200' of 1 3/4" with an automatic nozzle for the normal attack line. You could be running a P.D.P. of 140 to 180 psi and delivering somewhere between 120 gpm to 170 gpm with those lines. Lets pick the middle (160 psi) Then a 200 ft. - 2 1/2" line with a blitz fire will deliver about 350 gpm at 160 psi P.D.P. If you choose to use a 1 1/8" SS nozzle, then the line will need to be gated back to 85 psi to properly supply the 265 gpm at 50 psi nozzle pressure. If you choose to use a 1 1/4" tip (max for a 2 1/2" line) then delivery will be 328 gpm with a discharge pressure gated back to 104 psi. at the engine.
    There is a second problem concerning nozzle choice for hand lines. The reaction force and hose line weight are going to determine the manpower requirements. The 1 1/8" nozzle will have a reaction force of 95 lbs add to this the weight of the hose for 30 ft (about 100 lbs) so the work load is 200 lbs. By using 3 FF's the work load becomes a reasonable figure of 67 lbs per man. Reaction force for the 1 1/4" nozzle is 117 lbs, so the work load per man is 72 lbs per man. This is still a reasonable figure.
    Replacing the smooth bore with an automatic (handline nozzle or Blitz Fire) results in a nozzle reaction of 175 lbs. This is clearly beyond being used as a hand line with a reaction force of 175 lbs and a total work load of 265 lbs. A three man crew would need to handle 88 lbs per man, and is clearly beyond the capability of a crew performing interior attack. The Blitz Fire will not lend itself to easy movement without shutting down. It does allow for higher application rates with fewer firefighters. (1 or 2)
    With proper training, attack crews can be taught to use the feature of the automatic nozzle by cutting back the flow (gate back the bail) when moving and then open up after a stable location has been gained.
    So the answer you are seeking is NOT cut and dried, but depends upon your normal manpower, pump operator experience and attack crew training. I hope these thoughts haven't muddied the water. Real life is seldom an easy black or white answer.

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    nameless,

    Deadman's lay: A hose bed with a nozzle or other appliance attached that is not preconnected to a discharge. Lengths may vary anywhere from the common 200 foot bed to upwards of 1000 feet depending on local needs.

    While I agree that one of the pocket deluges makes an excellent choice for a deadlay, or preconnected, 2 1/2 or 3 inch line, I also feel that a line with a standard 2 1/2 nozzle is needed. An aggressive moving forward line needs to have that nozzle for ease of movement.

    My choice would be either a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 inch tip. Too me the 1 inch tip is simply too small when you can flow that amount froma 1 3/4 inch line, or even better from a 2 inch line.

    I know I have said this a million times but here we go again. My volly FD uses 2 inch hose and our nozzles are Elkhart break aparts with a 200 at 75 combo tip backed by a 1 1/4 inch smoothbore slug tip. Yes, I know we aren't supposed to do that but it works for us. So telling us it won't work is like telling a bumblebee it can't fly!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post
    Try to make the Pump Operator's job as easy as possible. Lets say that you are running 200' of 1 3/4" with an automatic nozzle for the normal attack line. You could be running a P.D.P. of 140 to 180 psi and delivering somewhere between 120 gpm to 170 gpm with those lines. Lets pick the middle (160 psi) Then a 200 ft. - 2 1/2" line with a blitz fire will deliver about 350 gpm at 160 psi P.D.P. If you choose to use a 1 1/8" SS nozzle, then the line will need to be gated back to 85 psi to properly supply the 265 gpm at 50 psi nozzle pressure. If you choose to use a 1 1/4" tip (max for a 2 1/2" line) then delivery will be 328 gpm with a discharge pressure gated back to 104 psi. at the engine.
    There is a second problem concerning nozzle choice for hand lines. The reaction force and hose line weight are going to determine the manpower requirements. The 1 1/8" nozzle will have a reaction force of 95 lbs add to this the weight of the hose for 30 ft (about 100 lbs) so the work load is 200 lbs. By using 3 FF's the work load becomes a reasonable figure of 67 lbs per man. Reaction force for the 1 1/4" nozzle is 117 lbs, so the work load per man is 72 lbs per man. This is still a reasonable figure.
    Replacing the smooth bore with an automatic (handline nozzle or Blitz Fire) results in a nozzle reaction of 175 lbs. This is clearly beyond being used as a hand line with a reaction force of 175 lbs and a total work load of 265 lbs. A three man crew would need to handle 88 lbs per man, and is clearly beyond the capability of a crew performing interior attack. The Blitz Fire will not lend itself to easy movement without shutting down. It does allow for higher application rates with fewer firefighters. (1 or 2)
    With proper training, attack crews can be taught to use the feature of the automatic nozzle by cutting back the flow (gate back the bail) when moving and then open up after a stable location has been gained.
    So the answer you are seeking is NOT cut and dried, but depends upon your normal manpower, pump operator experience and attack crew training. I hope these thoughts haven't muddied the water. Real life is seldom an easy black or white answer.
    Nice job on passing along some valuable information once again.

    We do disagree on the automatic nozzle. I will revert to what I have seen time and time again with automatic nozzles. The gating back of the nozzle to combat excessive nozzle reaction. You can call it a training issue if you like but it transcends paid and volly FD's in my area.

    Do automatic nozzles work? Of course. That isn't the issue in my mind.
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    Thanks all for the feedback. We do currently have 200 ft. of 3 inch line connected to an Akron Blitz monitor that will flow 500 gpm. But like others said, it is not portable, once it is in place for the most part it has to stay there unless you shut down the line. That is the reason we are looking at adding a 2 1/2 inch hand line. I also did the math for nozzle reaction and came up with the same figures. After reading the replies it looks like a 1 1/8 inch smooth bore will be the way we will go.

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    Default Another point

    If you have the space and the line is not going to be preconnected anyway, I would not limit myself to the maximum of a 200 foot line.

    I would make any deadload at least 400 feet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    nameless,

    Deadman's lay: A hose bed with a nozzle or other appliance attached that is not preconnected to a discharge. Lengths may vary anywhere from the common 200 foot bed to upwards of 1000 feet depending on local needs.
    oh we always called it a dead load or a static load/bed. Seems kind of grim to call it deadman

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    You might want to take a look at the "Blitz Attack" Vindicator nozzle.

    http://1ststriketech.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSMV72 View Post
    Thanks all for the feedback. We do currently have 200 ft. of 3 inch line connected to an Akron Blitz monitor that will flow 500 gpm. But like others said, it is not portable, once it is in place for the most part it has to stay there unless you shut down the line. That is the reason we are looking at adding a 2 1/2 inch hand line. I also did the math for nozzle reaction and came up with the same figures. After reading the replies it looks like a 1 1/8 inch smooth bore will be the way we will go.
    Try out a 2-1/2" Akron ZeroTorque (ZT). If you're married to a particular brand or style tip, get the ZT as a breakapart and use your flavor of tip.

    I've used the ZT and it does reduce the perceived workload for the nozzleman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    oh we always called it a dead load or a static load/bed. Seems kind of grim to call it deadman
    We call it a dead lay here.

    I just defined the term the way it was posted here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Try out a 2-1/2" Akron ZeroTorque (ZT). If you're married to a particular brand or style tip, get the ZT as a breakapart and use your flavor of tip.

    I've used the ZT and it does reduce the perceived workload for the nozzleman.
    I have never used one in person, but those things look huge and cumbersom. Maybe alright for a defensive operation but I wouldn't want to go crawling down a hallway with one.

    In my opinion, the best thing to take the perceived load off of the nozzleman is proper hose handling technique.
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    Reinforcing what E34 and Kuhshise have already said. It's a handline. I'd go a little more with 500-600' but certainly a smoothbore. The Mercury, Blitzfire, RAM all have a place but not in the context of this discussion.

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    I've fought fire with a blitz line set up just like you're saying (200' 2 1/2, with 1 1/8" tip smooth bore) and it works great. But it gets heavy. One man can stretch, set up (i.e., sit on it) and put out a lot of fire faster than a street monitor. Trying to advance it however takes at least 2-3 once charged. If you have the room in the hose bed I say do it, make it a preconnect if you can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I have never used one in person, but those things look huge and cumbersom. Maybe alright for a defensive operation but I wouldn't want to go crawling down a hallway with one.

    In my opinion, the best thing to take the perceived load off of the nozzleman is proper hose handling technique.
    Why is it the mosty obvious, simplest answer seems to elude so many?

    I have never used one of those "Zero Torque" nozzle gizmo's either but I guarantee you something that bulky would simply not work in the aggressive, rapidly moving the nozzle type of attack I use. Man oh man, it would be worse than trying to lug a TFT down a hallway!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVFR9923 View Post
    You might want to take a look at the "Blitz Attack" Vindicator nozzle.

    http://1ststriketech.com/
    We had Vindicators here to try out and I was quite impressed with the amount of water they discharged and the ease of handling them. We used a flow meter so we knew exactly what we were flowing.

    We had one on our then 1 3/4 inch attack line flowing 167 gpm with a reach of about 50 feet or so and I was holding it at my hip with one hand, very easily I might add.

    I still laugh thinking about why they were rejected here. Not because of the amount of water flowed, not because they were hard to handle, but because they were loud!! OH MY GOD!! THEY WERE LOUD? LMAO!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Why is it the mosty obvious, simplest answer seems to elude so many?

    I have never used one of those "Zero Torque" nozzle gizmo's either but I guarantee you something that bulky would simply not work in the aggressive, rapidly moving the nozzle type of attack I use. Man oh man, it would be worse than trying to lug a TFT down a hallway!!
    I don't think the original author intends to use it as an offensive line. At least I hope not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by insertclevername View Post
    I don't think the original author intends to use it as an offensive line. At least I hope not.
    Uh, why not? The 2.5" serves as the go to offensive line in commercial occupancies in many FD's.

    I'd go with the Vindicator Heavy Attack for the flow range, with the smoothbore 1.25" tip as a close second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by insertclevername View Post
    I don't think the original author intends to use it as an offensive line. At least I hope not.
    Why do you "hope not"? Are you one of those guys that thinks that all 2 1/2" nozzles should come with the big D handles, since you will use that to hold on to them while sitting on the line? Not being sarcastic; there ARE people out there who still think this way.

    Just like anything else, a 2 1/2" line can be used as a efficient offensive tool with proper training on correct hose handling technique, which is something most people don't have. It took me one training session to show a group of 20 year veterans the right way to handle a line. They all agreed that the old way was much more physicaly demanding and not as efficient. We then all agreed the pistol grips would be removed from all lines but the trash lines. Once you know how to handle a hose all they do is get in the way.

    /rant
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    Sure you could use a 2 1/2 as an attack line, and I've had the training, and it works great on the training ground. However it has been my experience (and we run with a 2 1/2 pre-connect) that on the fire ground the blitz line works best for a quick knock down or exposure protection. Organizing a 4 man team to advance a 2 1/2 when you could advance 2 1 3/4's with half as many seems a little impractical.

    Just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by insertclevername View Post
    Sure you could use a 2 1/2 as an attack line, and I've had the training, and it works great on the training ground. However it has been my experience (and we run with a 2 1/2 pre-connect) that on the fire ground the blitz line works best for a quick knock down or exposure protection. Organizing a 4 man team to advance a 2 1/2 when you could advance 2 1 3/4's with half as many seems a little impractical.

    Just my opinion.
    The single stream from a 2 1/2 will hit harder and extinguisher more fire than the equivalent flow divided between 2 smaller lines.
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