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  1. #21
    Forum Member TNFF319's Avatar
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    If both helmets offer the same protection, how can you not support leather? New things come along and replace old things, but we are still using axes. Why? If something is still usable and doesn't have a better replacement, should we get rid of it because it is old and has a long FD tradition?

    To all those agianst leathers, do you support the European helmets? They offer more head protection and built in eye protection.
    FF/Paramedic


  2. #22
    Forum Member sfd1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deluge059 View Post
    Its pretty sad that many of you don't support Leather Lids.

    What exactly does the "support" (or lack of) on FH.com have to do with the OP's situation? I doubt it's going to mean Jack Sheet to anyone in the decision making process at his FD.

    If his FD says no leather, then no leather it is. If the people paying you every two weeks say that you're going to wear a purple Kaiser Wilhelm helmet, then you do it. Or quit.

    Maybe everyone realizes that with houses closing, brothers being laid off, and brownouts occurring daily all across the country, there are bigger fish to fry than helmets.
    Last edited by sfd1992; 08-26-2010 at 01:51 PM.

  3. #23
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Great point, SFD.

    Pardon me if I don't really give two thoughts as to what helmet is more important to wear.
    I would rather have the 200 plus line positions stolen from the department here, rather than ever see a leather helmet again. I am quite sure those from local-22 or local-344 feel the exact same way.

    It's about protecting your head and the rest of your body. In every place that has taken cuts to line positions, even if a leather provides more protection (for the sake of discussion only), those members in those departments are less safe.

    So, once again; why is this an important topic?

  4. #24
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    I knew there would a few that assumed that I was against leather lids. You have to be careful not to read into something that isn't there.


    Quote Originally Posted by nameless
    so you have no valid argument besides this melodramatic paragraph, how is moving on beyond leather or even plastic that looks like leather beneficial? How is keeping faux-leather plastic helmets hurting or holding back the fire service?
    Ahhh, step back for just a minute there nameless. I respect you there buddy but I did not endorse or slam either leather or Plastic helmets. My remark about tradition can apply to anything since the industrial revolution started. My remarks only apply to the POLICY concerning PPE. You call my remark melodramatic... tell me where I condemned your leather my friend. I think you nailed melodramatic... not I.

    I was referring to the rules that a fire department applies. If a department eliminates leather, they do not have to justify it to the staff. They pay the bills and decide policy. But it might also be considered progress.

    Currently, about half of our guys wear leather. But we are retiring the leather out as they become damaged or past date. Since the city is suffering a huge deficit, cost is everything. It has nothing to do with tradition... it has to do with economics. If the money comes back during my watch, then leather will not be out of play.

    Oh... I did say that I could spend MY MONEY on something other than PPE. Why would I buy my own when the department provides two very good sets? I don't allow anyone to modify their PPE, but that is my decision. The next guy can change it if he wishes.

    Would it make you feel better if I told you that the guys get to keep their leather lid when they retire, or as I retire their helmet? It cannot be used on duty any longer, but they can do anything else they wish with it after it is theirs.



    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319
    If both helmets offer the same protection, how can you not support leather? New things come along and replace old things, but we are still using axes. Why? If something is still usable and doesn't have a better replacement, should we get rid of it because it is old and has a long FD tradition?
    You know what? If it aint broke, don't fix it. So TN, again, where did I say I did not support leather helmets? My remark to tradition was meant to show how WE CAN GO STUPID at times because change is so scary and difficult.

    ______________________________ _______________

    Jasper and SFD: Thanks for summing it up. This issue is not a discussion about which helmet is better. The OP asks for help on which helmet is better trying to prove a point and save his beloved leather helmet. Out of curiosity, I tried to find the answer to that question. All I can find is the same thing I find here... opinions. My own opinion is "Either will do the job.". Everyone has their favorite, or some are traditionalists. Not a thing with either of those positions.

    What several have completely overlooked, is the Chief or Jurisdiction sets the policy. Nothing that we debate here is going to change the OPs Chief's policy.

    I am a bit amazed that the Chief gave him an opportunity to state a case. But I am even more amazed that the OP would bring it here. That is like asking your friend to do your homework.

    If I give a guy a chance to state a case, he gets extra points for doing his own work, doing his level best and providing originality opposed to passing his chance off to someone else.

    OP: The internet is a wonderful tool... just use it instead of taking shortcuts.

    My apologies to those that think I insulted them.
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  5. #25
    Forum Member 76Truck's Avatar
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    The TL-2 or N6A isn't a progressive leather ? I believe it is seeing how they no longer produce 5A leathers other than for show.

    It really doesn't matter at the end of the day because you say tamato and I say tomato, you use cafs and I use just water. I love leathers and yall like plastic. It's a matter of opinion.

    We don't need no stinkin cafs, send that back by all means.

  6. #26
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFDCasiano View Post
    The TL-2 or N6A isn't a progressive leather ? I believe it is seeing how they no longer produce 5A leathers other than for show.

    It really doesn't matter at the end of the day because you say tamato and I say tomato, you use cafs and I use just water. I love leathers and yall like plastic. It's a matter of opinion.

    We don't need no stinkin cafs, send that back by all means.


    There is one in every crowd. Great job HFD!


    Water still works.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  7. #27
    Forum Member 76Truck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    There is one in every crowd. Great job HFD!


    Water still works.
    Sarcasm ? Can't pick up the undertone on these dang forums. Anyways, the wet stuff does very much still work. Thanks !!!

  8. #28
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    I was serious...

    I appreciate an honest post.

    Good timing and great delviery.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  9. #29
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion. At my career department, we are issued turtle shells. I would estimate 90 percent of the 150 person department has purchased their own traditional style plastic helmets and turned the turtle shells back in. There are a few of us who wear leather.

    I bought my own traditional plastic, and then my own leather. Why? Honestly, because I dang well felt like it. Very few aspects of fire service tradition can actually be practiced instead of just observed, and this is one of them.

    We do not have regulations on what helmets we wear. For that matter, the only thing that is department issued in my gear is the coat and pants. Boots, gloves, hood and SCBA mask were all purchased by me. Why? Because I found different models of each that fit me better than what was department issued, all of which still meet required standards.

    Standardization is one thing, but buying bottom of the barrel equipment because of budget constraints and then telling the guys who will be wearing it that they can't go out and buy something better doesn't make much sense. Obviously, this usually only applies to the above listed items (not coats and pants, who would want to spend the money).

    On the other hand, if I worked somewhere that told me what I was going to wear, no exceptions, I would wear it. As long as they pay the bills I will wear whatever they want.
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  10. #30
    Forum Member Firefighter 21's Avatar
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    sucks, were issued leather helmets.

    pretty much this exact one as a matter of fact- http://a1-fireequipment.com/helmets/...r%20helmet.jpg
    Last edited by Firefighter 21; 08-26-2010 at 03:29 PM.

  11. #31
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    As far as the whole NFPA compliant thing- keep in mind that the helmets meet NFPA compliance as they are tested and shipped. The minute you add anything (including a decal) that's not OK'd by the manufacturer in writing, it may no longer be NFPA compliant.

  12. #32
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    As far as the whole NFPA compliant thing- keep in mind that the helmets meet NFPA compliance as they are tested and shipped. The minute you add anything (including a decal) that's not OK'd by the manufacturer in writing, it may no longer be NFPA compliant.
    Not to mention the helmet itself has nothing to do with it. If you set two Phenix TL-2s side by side, one with goggles and one without, they will be the same exact helmet but one will be NFPA and one wont.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    What exactly does the "support" (or lack of) on FH.com have to do with the OP's situation? I doubt it's going to mean Jack Sheet to anyone in the decision making process at his FD.

    If his FD says no leather, then no leather it is. If the people paying you every two weeks say that you're going to wear a purple Kaiser Wilhelm helmet, then you do it. Or quit.

    Maybe everyone realizes that with houses closing, brothers being laid off, and brownouts occurring daily all across the country, there are bigger fish to fry than helmets.
    His Chief said no leather, so fine.

    I said I see no support because everyone is saying "why even go leather when there are better options?"
    Most of the posts are saying leather shouldn't even be around anymore and plastic should be the new standard.
    Thats where I say there is lack of support. Fighting his chief isnt going to do anything but **** of the chief.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Interesting discussion. At my career department, we are issued turtle shells. I would estimate 90 percent of the 150 person department has purchased their own traditional style plastic helmets and turned the turtle shells back in. There are a few of us who wear leather.

    I bought my own traditional plastic, and then my own leather. Why? Honestly, because I dang well felt like it. Very few aspects of fire service tradition can actually be practiced instead of just observed, and this is one of them.

    We do not have regulations on what helmets we wear. For that matter, the only thing that is department issued in my gear is the coat and pants. Boots, gloves, hood and SCBA mask were all purchased by me. Why? Because I found different models of each that fit me better than what was department issued, all of which still meet required standards.

    Standardization is one thing, but buying bottom of the barrel equipment because of budget constraints and then telling the guys who will be wearing it that they can't go out and buy something better doesn't make much sense. Obviously, this usually only applies to the above listed items (not coats and pants, who would want to spend the money).

    On the other hand, if I worked somewhere that told me what I was going to wear, no exceptions, I would wear it. As long as they pay the bills I will wear whatever they want.

    Couldn't have said it better myself friend. BTW, the rest of this post has nothing to do with you, I support your post.

    The OP simply wanted guidance on where to get the information to support his case to the chief, which the chief seems to support his doing. So why are all these random opinions about why would anyone want to buy their own gear if the department provides, leather sucks/plastic rules, etc. on this thread? Way off topic. As to why he would buy his own helmet if given the opportunity, why not. If he wants it, the rules allow it, and he has the money for it, then by all means, buy what makes you happy. And as far a negative comments about tradition, if you can make a traditional piece of gear, i.e. a leather helmet NFPA compliant and modern in every aspect except for the shell, then waht's the problem with holding on to that tradition. I mean, you can't modernize a horse or a steamer, so how in the world can that even start to be compared to a helmet which can be modernized and made compliant?

    How about we help this fellow get the information he needs and not diss his preferences on helmets. Wouldn't that be a bit more productive than trying to make him feel like a jack@$$ for trying to salvage what little tradition the fire service still has?
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 08-26-2010 at 06:31 PM. Reason: Add a sentence

  15. #35
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    Cities dont buy plastic helmets because there safer or "progressive". There cheaper! Bottom line. That is all they they care about.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustBeltFire View Post
    Cities dont buy plastic helmets because there safer or "progressive". There cheaper! Bottom line. That is all they they care about.
    Perhaps. I think to be more accurate therE is no reason to blow limited $ on something that does not provide additional safety or performance.

    I think very few US FD actually buy the cheapest possible (low bid) piece of equipment. You still wearing nomex gear, plastic tip/nozzles, cowhide gloves? I think, within budget constraints and missions assigned, we honestly evaluate available equipment that best meets requirements for funds available and purchase accordingly. On the otherhand, I'm sure there are FD that are ruled by graft and corruption but hopefully all such are in Africa (or France).
    Last edited by neiowa; 08-26-2010 at 08:28 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Perhaps. I think to be more accurate their is no reason to blow limited $ on something that does not provide additional safety or performance.

    I think very few US FD actually buy the cheapest possible (low bid) piece of equipment. You still wearing nomex gear, plastic tip/nozzles, cowhide gloves? I think, within budget constraints and missions assigned, we honestly evaluate available equipment that best meets requirements for funds available and purchase accordingly. On the otherhand, I'm sure there are FD that are ruled by graft and corruption but hopefully all such are in Africa (or France).
    HAHA, then you should check out the Cohutta Volunteer Fire Department. Not only did the helmet I was issued not have a sweat band on it, just rough plastic, but it also had a crack in the top of it. Also, the bunker gear I got was about 2 sizes too big, with holes in the cuffs and buttons missing where the suspenders were supposed to attach. It didn't help that the mayor was the chief, and all of the city councilmen were the captains either. They're out there brother, and more than you'd realize. It's pretty sad when a mayor election splits a fire dept. right down the middle. How safe is that. That's why in my opinion mayors and city councilmen have no place in the hierachy of the fire dept. itsself, as far as chief and officers go.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 08-26-2010 at 09:07 PM.

  18. #38
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    what dept do you work for in florida?

  19. #39
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    I think very few US FD actually buy the cheapest possible (low bid) piece of equipment.
    If you believe this... I have some oceanfront property in Nebraska you might be interested in...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  20. #40
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    I went through 5 FD issued pleather lids (to be fair, the 1010 I had was great until some little "bahstid" stole it out of the rig while I was at a medical call, the FD replaced it with a Bullard traditional that was the worst POS I have ever worn).

    I bought my own leather lids (the first was a N6A NFPA compliant Sam Houston, the second was an OSHA compliant N5A and is now my present lid).

    I plan on giving my son my N6A when he graduates from the Academy.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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