1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    I NEED RESEARCH, FACTS, LITERATURE.
    You need to do your own research rather than asking others to do it for you.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    I'm not asking the department to issue everyone a leather helmet. I'm simply asking to keep the same SOG's we've had for years ; I may purchase my own helmet so long as it's the same color and shape (i.e. black and classic/traditional shape) AND IS NFPA COMPLIANT!
    So let me see if I understand.

    Currently your department issues everyone a helmet along with the other PPE. The current SOG's state that a member may go out and purchase their own helmet, with their own funds, as long as it is the same color and shape and meets the NFPA standards.

    The Chief wants to change the SOG to disallow members from purchasing their own helmets but has allowed you an opportunity to present a case and maybe. maybe change his mind.

    Yes?

    It also sounds like your tact in this endeavor is to try to show him that leather exceeds the NFPA standards in ways that the issued plastic helmets do not. In my OPINION this may not be the best way to make your case. As Paladin mentioned, I doubt there is much documentation that compares how various helmets exceed NFPA and if there is it would probably result in a tit-for-tat type result where there is no single exceptional winner. Instead some helmets that meet NFPA will exceed it different areas.. whether those areas are important to you is really up to personal preference.

    I'm not sure you're going to be able to make a strong case using that tactic. It is based on personal preference.. and as you can tell just by this thread there are lot of different opinions.. your chief's will probably differ slightly from your own.. you're probably not going to be able to change his personal opinion. Nor should you.

    Really your trying to convince the chief NOT to change the SOG and disallow members exercising their personal preference. To make a strong case you should ask yourself what is the current motivation for the chief to change the SOG. It sounds like it has been around for a while.. why does he want to change it? Are their liability concerns? Have there been problems with people taking advantage of the SOG? Maybe modifying their personal helmets to look like hockey goalies?

    Find out why he's trying to change the SOG and then present viable alternatives that still solve his concerns.

    I know in my department we are issued plastic 1010's but the SOG allows for members to purchase their own helmets. Instead of generic "same color & style" my department specifies alternatives.. Ben2, N6.. I forget the specific list.

    If liability and consistency are the primary concerns of your chief then perhaps changing the SOG to present a specific list of alternatives may solve his concerns and still allow the members choice.

    EDIT: It is good that the chief is giving you a chance to present your case. Keep in mind that it is still his prerogative. In the end you thank him for the chance and go with what the chief says.
    Last edited by voyager9; 08-27-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    Again... I'm not saying to use some Leather lid my great grandfather gave me as a gift. I'm asking to have a choice of Leather or Plastic that are both NFPA complaint and meet or exceed all safety requirements set by NFPA and OSHA.

    Wow! I came looking for research/facts and all I've been given is a discussion/argument. I respect all of your opinions, really I do, but please help a brother out over here! I NEED RESEARCH, FACTS, LITERATURE.


    Several questions and then I won't be in here again.

    1. Have you contacted any helmet makers for their literature and information sheets?

    2. Have you contact the NFPA to get a copy of the helmet standard?

    3. Have you physically contacted any other close by fire department and see what they are wearing and why?

    4. What happen if you lose and the Fire Chief prevails? Which he will.

    A Chief of Department sets procedures and policies. If you old Chief retired and the City and or County hired a new Chief, be it from within or outside, they are going to look at everything. procedures, policies, rules, guidelines. They may keep things running the same for a while. But I will bet you dollar for dollar, things are going to change. The new Chief will instituted new policies, procedure and guidelines. The rank and file may think it is nuttier than a fruit cake, but the Chief is the Chief and his policies and etc. will be followed.

    It doesn't matter to me what type of helmet they have. I have worn all make, models, styles and composition. If they are buying it, then I am wearing it.



    I wish you luck. Don't cut your head off to spite your face. You may want to get promoted one day and this Chief may be the guy who you have interview with.
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    Let me start this out by saying I am not opposed to leather helmets. I wore a N5A for 10 years and 2 different N6A's for 5 years. My problem was durability, my 2-N6A's literally fell apart after about 5 years. The cost, for me, was prohibitive. By the way, my Chieftan plastic traditional is over 10 years old and still going strong.

    If you go in there with the tactic that you are going to prove to him the leather helmet is better then you are wasting your breath. Sorry guys, it is not. All fire helmets have a standard to meet and if they meet the same standard they are equals in protection. Well, at least according to the standard.

    I would take a different tact and the one we used at work to allow us to buy traditional helmets. Which are plastic traditionals by the way. We hit it as a morale issue. The guys that wanted it were more than willing to pay for their own helmets so there was no additional expense to the city. We went through a trial period and the plan was accepted. Um, guess what? Now all the new helmets the city buys are platic traditionals.

    Frankly, if you go into the chief's office with the attitude you have expressed here you will lose. A clear cut reason why, and a strong defense of that position, will get you much farther than your adversarial tone.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-27-2010 at 11:10 PM.
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    MAP:

    I'm sorry you're not liking what you're seeing here.

    But, you're making this a lot harder that it needs to be.

    Just ask the Chief for a few minutes of his time. Calmly visit with him about the issue to see if he open to a compromise on the helmets. Ask him if members can be allowed to buy their own helmets as long as they meet the department policy.

    I think this may be the last card you can play.

    I am curious where the other members are on this. Are you the only one that is making an issue of this?


    If you try to make any argument that Leather is better, or because of tradition, you will lose on this my friend.

    Just stay calm and speak with confidence.

    I deal with these little issues everyday.

    I tend to listen more intently when guys state a 'well thought out' presentation. I appreciate honesty and originality. Every once in a while, someone will truly impress me with their idea or solution.

    If they start talking about their rights, tradition, or "just because", the discussion ends sooner than later.

    Just a few more thoughts for you to consider.

    Good Luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Tradition?

    I knew it was just a matter of time before someone gave us the big T.

    If I hung on to the tradition, I wouldn't be here.

    We traded our horses in a long time ago.

    Perhaps we need to go back to the time before Nomax and Kevlar.

    Maybe we need to send the CAFs back since we don't need them.

    Oh, we don't need towers and ladders either.

    Hell, break out the buckets boys...



    I don't mind tradition. Keep some of the tradition if you like.

    But, sometimes you have to embrace a thing called Progress.
    Well,about every 50 years or so what was old becomes new. Won't happen in OUR lifetimes but IF we keep gobbling oil don't be REAL surprised if a Horse once again finds it's way to the Front. A leather helmet,PROPERLY cared for,will last an AVERAGE FF's career.Assuming of course you didn't have that pesky NFPA 10year ruling. But what the hell,let's throw out EVERYTHING traditional as we all know NO good can come from traditions. Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-27-2010 at 11:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.

    I Think SC might know of that Group.......... Something about thinking like a Donkey comes to mind.........
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I Think SC might know of that Group.......... Something about thinking like a Donkey comes to mind.........
    Harve, my ESTEEMED friend,I've come to the conclusion that there are NOW few THINKING people left in the USA.And ZERO practical thinkers in Washington DC. Glad I live on 100 acres of working farm,I'll EAT no matter what happens. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-28-2010 at 10:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Well,about every 50 years or so what was old becomes new. Won't happen in OUR lifetimes but IF we keep gobbling oil don't be REAL surprised if a Horse once again finds it's way to the Front. A leather helmet,PROPERLY cared for,will last an AVERAGE FF's career.Assuming of course you didn't have that pesky NFPA 10year ruling. But what the hell,let's throw out EVERYTHING traditional as we all know NO good can come from traditions. Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.
    Really? A properly cared for leather helmet will last an AVERAGE firefighter's career? You mean like cleaning it and keeping the bare spots touched up with paint? Golly, I did that, and my 2 Sam Houston N6A's fell apart on the back brim at about 5 years old each. Just for the record, NO, I did not heat them and bend the brim. I used them on my volly FD and as an instructor at the tech college. I sure loved wearing them but replacing a leather helmet every 5 years in just plain insane, as well as costly.

    Not all tradition is bad, and for damn sure, not all tradition is good. Justifying wearing a helmet because of tradition just doesn't cut it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    You need to do your own research rather than asking others to do it for you.
    What is the point of having a forum for people to ask questions if all you are going to do is get snotty with them and send them somewhere else? Your answer could cover almost every thread in the forum. Just like momma always said, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    What is the point of having a forum for people to ask questions if all you are going to do is get snotty with them and send them somewhere else?
    The point of a fourm is to supplement research you might do on your own -- not do it for you.

    if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.
    Guess what? The world doesn't operate under Disney rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    The point of a fourm is to supplement research you might do on your own -- not do it for you.
    If you don't want to help, then why waste your time repeatedly posting here? I hope none of my questions I will ever ask won't waste you time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    If you don't want to help, then why waste your time repeatedly posting here? I hope none of my questions I will ever ask won't waste you time.
    Hopefully you ask any stupid questions that are tantamount to asking someone else to do your homework for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    What is the point of having a forum for people to ask questions if all you are going to do is get snotty with them and send them somewhere else? Your answer could cover almost every thread in the forum. Just like momma always said, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.
    Was I snotty?

    I am so very sorry about that. Snotty was not on my list of attitudes this week. I will update the list so I can include it in my report.



    We tried to help the poor lad, but his problem was with his reading comprehension.

    Momma also said when someone tries to kick your dog, unchain the dog.


    I started out respectful and made a few suggestions, as others also did. It became clear that he had boxed himself into a position he was not going to win. He could not accept that and assumed that I and others were against leather helmets.

    With all of the collective knowledge and talent around here, don't you think that if there was a definitive study that proved his point, someone would have rescued him?

    How can I or anyone pull something out of thin air when it does not exist. It comes down to opinions and policy. That has been my position from the beginning.

    Just as this issue had finally died... you come on here and post your opinion. But your concerned about the guy that created the issue. I do not understand this at all.


    Listen Sonny... why don't you find the answer for him. I really don't have time to cover this crap again.


    To answer your question:

    What is the point of having a forum for people to ask questions if all you are going to do is get snotty with them and send them somewhere else?
    He received answers and suggestions.... he just didn't like them. That was not anyones fault but his own.

    I do have to give you some points for taking up his losing cause. It shows you have some sand. I'd just be careful where you use it in the future.

    (sand=guts)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Fyred: I wore leather for many years and I never had one last more than 3 to 5 years. Like you, when the dept didn't want to buy leather anymore, I didn't think the cost was worth it to me. But I sure like them. I wish I had kept the last one.


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    WEBTEAM: This topic has outlived its usefulness. Please lock or delete.
    Last edited by PaladinKnight; 08-28-2010 at 12:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post

    He received answers and suggestions.... he just didn't like them. That was not anyones fault but his own.
    I will admit, after reading the first couple pages and seeing the direction the discussion was heading (POV lights anyone, ), I just scanned the rest so I may have missed some of the details.

    And just to keep on topic, we wear department issued leathers, if for no other reason than 130+ years of tradition. Always have, always will.
    Last edited by mcwops; 08-28-2010 at 12:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops
    I will admit, after reading the first couple pages and seeing the direction the discussion was heading...

    You are a scholar and gentleman sir... and have restored my faith in the ages. Thank you!



    And just to keep on topic, we wear department issued leathers, if for no other reason than 130+ years of tradition. Always have, always will.
    Tradition is a wonderful thing. I have no issue if your department has the funding and makes the decision to carry on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Really? A properly cared for leather helmet will last an AVERAGE firefighter's career? You mean like cleaning it and keeping the bare spots touched up with paint? Golly, I did that, and my 2 Sam Houston N6A's fell apart on the back brim at about 5 years old each. Just for the record, NO, I did not heat them and bend the brim. I used them on my volly FD and as an instructor at the tech college. I sure loved wearing them but replacing a leather helmet every 5 years in just plain insane, as well as costly.

    Not all tradition is bad, and for damn sure, not all tradition is good. Justifying wearing a helmet because of tradition just doesn't cut it.
    Dunno what to tell you Brother Fyred. Guess I bought mine PRE-junk. I have TWO N6's as one gets beat up I rotate it to repaint and back again. Sometime I'll look at the build date and post it. Both are still in good shape. And NO,they aren't as good as they once were,maybe it's that California cow leather.You know,the happy cow stuff. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deluge059 View Post
    Its pretty sad that many of you don't support Leather Lids.
    I don't have an opinion either way except I'd never put out money for a helmet.

    There is no real advantage either way. Both will protect your noggin.

    As for "tradition"... I don't buy it. Literally, in this case.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.
    T.C....

    Is a leather helmet really that critical? I mean, to relate it to throwing away the constitution?

    It's not like they are making you wear an SCBA or anything.

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    I think the longevity depends on exposure. Everything is relevant.

    I worked on both busy Truck and Engine Companies over the years. They didn't seem to last more than 3 to 5 years. Perhaps that was my fault, perhaps it wasn't. Perhaps it was just the way it was. Not trying to make a call on that. Part of it might be what I consider safe for me, versus what some else may accept. I lost a good part of my scalp, so I guess I became a bit picky.

    If I had one today, it would last until the end of time since the exposure is... limited.

    I guess I am too tight with my money, and the budget as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Really? A properly cared for leather helmet will last an AVERAGE firefighter's career? You mean like cleaning it and keeping the bare spots touched up with paint? Golly, I did that, and my 2 Sam Houston N6A's fell apart on the back brim at about 5 years old each. Just for the record, NO, I did not heat them and bend the brim. I used them on my volly FD and as an instructor at the tech college. I sure loved wearing them but replacing a leather helmet every 5 years in just plain insane, as well as costly.

    Not all tradition is bad, and for damn sure, not all tradition is good. Justifying wearing a helmet because of tradition just doesn't cut it.
    Repeatedly teaching live fire does not fall under the "average firefighter's" career IMO. Burn buildings kill leather helmets. Most of us around here who have done any instructing have one plastic helmet that we use just for burns. After a while you get tired of buying leather shields and tetrahedrons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Repeatedly teaching live fire does not fall under the "average firefighter's" career IMO. Burn buildings kill leather helmets. Most of us around here who have done any instructing have one plastic helmet that we use just for burns. After a while you get tired of buying leather shields and tetrahedrons.
    Well, you know what you just did for any argument that leather is better don't you? You shot it all to hell. A leather helmet can't stand the heat of repeated burn building usage without being damaged or destroyed but a plastic helmet is just fine. Funny thing is I can back that concept up too. My leathers fell apart and my Chieftan plastic traditional look a like has done fine for 10 years and I expect it to last to my retirement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, you know what you just did for any argument that leather is better don't you? You shot it all to hell. A leather helmet can't stand the heat of repeated burn building usage without being damaged or destroyed but a plastic helmet is just fine.
    I think it has more to do with the relative price. I'd rather burn up the department's plastic helmets than my leather helmet...
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    T.C....

    Is a leather helmet really that critical? I mean, to relate it to throwing away the constitution?

    It's not like they are making you wear an SCBA or anything.

    Nope Ken, it isn't. I LOVE Paladin responses but I don't mind cranking on him(or you)if I think I can get a rise or make a point. So I'll make a point. Not all Tradition is Good. But IF you don't study it and apply the lessons,that's BAD. A Leather isn't going to change anything there. Fact is,to some of us,the Leather represents a culture;One that is fading in a lot of places for any number of reasons. I FULLY intend to be in a Leather for the rest of my career. Does it make me a better FF? Nope,but to me(and mine) it stands for something:being the best we can be at what we do and honoring those that went before us. Most of "my" kids are in plastic,it's the Old dogs that are still in cow. And we will be until we retire. It's the LAST bit of the "Old School" that we're allowed to keep. I guess you could call it sentimental. When WE go(retire)the Helmet goes with us(we own them) and sits on the mantel until we both go to our final resting place. Just that simple. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, you know what you just did for any argument that leather is better don't you? You shot it all to hell. A leather helmet can't stand the heat of repeated burn building usage without being damaged or destroyed but a plastic helmet is just fine. Funny thing is I can back that concept up too. My leathers fell apart and my Chieftan plastic traditional look a like has done fine for 10 years and I expect it to last to my retirement.
    I've yet to see ANY helmet that LIKES burn buildings. Or lasts long in that enviornent. T.C.

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