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  1. #41
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Tradition?

    I knew it was just a matter of time before someone gave us the big T.

    If I hung on to the tradition, I wouldn't be here.

    We traded our horses in a long time ago.

    Perhaps we need to go back to the time before Nomax and Kevlar.

    Maybe we need to send the CAFs back since we don't need them.

    Oh, we don't need towers and ladders either.

    Hell, break out the buckets boys...



    I don't mind tradition. Keep some of the tradition if you like.

    But, sometimes you have to embrace a thing called Progress.
    I guess you know a thing or two about using buckets, huh


    oh and horses two
    Bring enough hose.


  2. #42
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    My signature says it all....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #43
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    I guess you know a thing or two about using buckets, huh


    oh and horses two


    Of course... now the buckets are used to carry feed for the horses.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  4. #44
    MAP
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post



    I don't mind tradition. Keep some of the tradition if you like.

    But, sometimes you have to embrace a thing called Progress.
    Again... I'm not saying to use some Leather lid my great grandfather gave me as a gift. I'm asking to have a choice of Leather or Plastic that are both NFPA complaint and meet or exceed all safety requirements set by NFPA and OSHA.

    Wow! I came looking for research/facts and all I've been given is a discussion/argument. I respect all of your opinions, really I do, but please help a brother out over here! I NEED RESEARCH, FACTS, LITERATURE.

  5. #45
    MAP
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post

    I am a bit amazed that the Chief gave him an opportunity to state a case. But I am even more amazed that the OP would bring it here. That is like asking your friend to do your homework.

    If I give a guy a chance to state a case, he gets extra points for doing his own work, doing his level best and providing originality opposed to passing his chance off to someone else.

    OP: The internet is a wonderful tool... just use it instead of taking shortcuts.

    My apologies to those that think I insulted them.

    This is what I call doing my homework. I've check the Internet, I've called the companies, and I'm asking on forums. It's called COVERING YOUR BASES! I'm trying to give the board a chance to make an informed decision.

    I'm not asking the department to issue everyone a leather helmet. I'm simply asking to keep the same SOG's we've had for years ; I may purchase my own helmet so long as it's the same color and shape (i.e. black and classic/traditional shape) AND IS NFPA COMPLIANT!

    You don't like Leather, fantastic. You think it's dumb to spend your own personal money on gear, fantastic. I respect your opinions and preferences. Why can't you respect and understand my personal opinion and preference?

  6. #46
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Default Uhhh...........

    Sorry I'm Late, had to feed the Horses......... I Fully support everyone's right to their own opinion, and as you would surmise, I happen to have one of my own..... That opinion is called WTH??..... What The Heck is the problem??? Assuming the O.P. has his story straight, (and I have no reason to think otherwise) He is looking for some information, and some of you have been kind enough to offer some leads on that. Tradition is a great thing. Or a Not-So-Great Thing. Depends on your point of view. BOX, BBL.



    I'm Back. Box was nothing, I came back and went to bed. It's now another day, and Paladin and Voyager (Read them below) have picked up my slack for me......... Nothing to add except Good Luck.......
    Last edited by hwoods; 08-27-2010 at 02:00 PM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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  7. #47
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Question

    What is it about leather helmets that makes them not suitable for todays fire service? I am listening.

  8. #48
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Map

    Calm down sir. You are still not understanding what I stated and seem very confused.

    I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH LEATHER HELMETS.

    This has nothing to do with RESPECT, or lack thereof.

    I have not attacked you because you prefer leather.

    I respect your right to do whatever you want to do, as long as it does not violate policy. But if you do violate policy, I will respect your right to believe you had a good reason, even if I believe your reason is wrong.

    I respect your right to be right and wrong.

    I respect your right to hold onto tradition.

    I did not attack your right to your opinion.

    I did not attack the fact that you are whining about losing your leather helmet.

    If you want to whine about it, great, I can even respect that.

    If you whine to your Chief, then you are losing this one.

    But by all means, come out swinging and see if that helps.



    This is a policy issue that will be decided by your chief.

    I suggested you do some research on the subject. You took offense. You come here and ask us to solve your problem. Hey, many of us tried.

    But I still respect your right to be upset.

    The reason you are not getting the response you are asking for is perhaps no one has looked beyond the NFPA/OSHA Standard as to the helmet requirement.

    Both Leather and Composite (Poly, Glass, Plastic) offer protection from impact and heat. Both are designed and manufactured as per standards or requirements.

    I am not aware of any head-to-head study that tries to establish a definitive winner. There are some discussions concerning the positive and negative attributes. If the tests are based on thermal integrity at 350 to 500 degrees, is either one really going to help you much at that level. If a 100 lb object hits your head, is one going to protect you more than the other?

    NIOSH and NFPA haven't done such a study. OSHA has not performed this study. They do not concern themselves with the materials if they meet the Standard.

    There are several pretty savy guys around here. I bet a few are trying to find a study that compares helmets. If such a report or study exists, you can be sure they will dig it up. I am just as curious about the issue now as many others are. But I will be surprised if someone can find one.

    But as for this issue, you seem to be all about tradition. That should not be the only basis when deciding policy.

    For the moment... you seem to have gotten yourself in a box. But, that is your right and I respect it.

    You state you called companies. Did you contact MSA? If you could not get them to commit to answer, then no one will. It is down to opinions, traditions and costs.



    The assumption has been made by a few that Cities make purchases based on lowest costs. Well that is true IF the item meets the bid specifications. That is called fiscal responsibility and required by Government at all levels. This removes personal preference from the process and keeps everything honest and above board. Call it what you wish, but that is the process. This should not be confused with the suggested view that the PPE does not meet or exceed the Standard.

    In some situations, the bid specifications may call for a Leather Helmet... despite the cost difference involved. That is great if they have the money. But as budgets become strained, alternatives will be looked at. That is the case in our own situation. I will buy the best that I can with the money that has been allocated... period.



    Here are the questions:

    Is the price difference justified as to the level of protection that each can provide?

    Is the leather helmet clearly superior and going to do a better job?

    Once you truthfully answer the questions then all you have left is "because I like leather better". Despite the cost, the weight and the additional care that I must provide, I like leather as well. But I cannot base the bid specifications on my opinion. But I respect your right to believe what you want to believe.

    I don't care which helmet we adopt... it comes down to costs per unit, cost per firefighter. My personal feelings have no impact on the process. The fact that I need to provide protection to the highest level is very much dependant on the cost of the equipment. If it meets NFPA standard, then what is the issue? The only latitude that I have past this process is historical documentation pertaining to warranty, customer service or equipment recalls or malfunctions issues that inidicate that an item may not be the best deal; Shorter life versus cost value.

    I don't care if you buy your own PPE, or a part of it. As long as it meets the department requirement I have no issue with it. But if it is different from the dept standard, then it will not be used. Example: If the dept policy states that composite helmets of xyz design, type, model are to be used, then that is what will be used.

    As stated, I do not allow PPE, especially helmets, to be modified or personalized. The intent here is to apply a policy that maintains a professional and uniform appearence. If I allow someone to display a decal that is suggestive in nature on their lid, that is clearly outside of the intent of policy. I've been around a long time and have seen some creative stuff. You can partially give credit to the PC crowd for some of this. We used to have a cross on our uniform patch, but too many people complained because it was offensive to them.


    My guess is your Chief already has decided what is going to happen. When you have your chance to present your case that leather is better, you better have more than opinion. That is all I have seen, and it is very open to speculation.


    If you go in and hard charge like you are here, you're most likely getting a non-leather helmet. Here is a suggestion... don't whine and don't stand on your rights. Your rights are limited sir. They sign your paycheck and you must follow policy. But you have a choice if your opinion is of more importance to you. And again, I will respect your right to your opinion.


    BKDRAFT: I don't think anyone has stated that leather is not suitable for today's fire service. Certainly not me.

    That is not the issue, despite many that believe that is the issue.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Harve: I already fed the horses... did you give them desert?


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I find it fascinating how so many read something different into a statement that just isn't there. Just because I state it comes down to a policy or costs, a few have translated it into I am against a leather helmet. When you understand how budgets must be justified and balanced, then you understand you just don't always get your way.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  9. #49
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    BY GOD YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!

    Thats the feeling I get here.
    Bring enough hose.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    BY GOD YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!

    Thats the feeling I get here.
    I dunno bro..


    I'm not touching this one with a 40 foot stick.

  11. #51
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    I NEED RESEARCH, FACTS, LITERATURE.
    You need to do your own research rather than asking others to do it for you.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber voyager9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    I'm not asking the department to issue everyone a leather helmet. I'm simply asking to keep the same SOG's we've had for years ; I may purchase my own helmet so long as it's the same color and shape (i.e. black and classic/traditional shape) AND IS NFPA COMPLIANT!
    So let me see if I understand.

    Currently your department issues everyone a helmet along with the other PPE. The current SOG's state that a member may go out and purchase their own helmet, with their own funds, as long as it is the same color and shape and meets the NFPA standards.

    The Chief wants to change the SOG to disallow members from purchasing their own helmets but has allowed you an opportunity to present a case and maybe. maybe change his mind.

    Yes?

    It also sounds like your tact in this endeavor is to try to show him that leather exceeds the NFPA standards in ways that the issued plastic helmets do not. In my OPINION this may not be the best way to make your case. As Paladin mentioned, I doubt there is much documentation that compares how various helmets exceed NFPA and if there is it would probably result in a tit-for-tat type result where there is no single exceptional winner. Instead some helmets that meet NFPA will exceed it different areas.. whether those areas are important to you is really up to personal preference.

    I'm not sure you're going to be able to make a strong case using that tactic. It is based on personal preference.. and as you can tell just by this thread there are lot of different opinions.. your chief's will probably differ slightly from your own.. you're probably not going to be able to change his personal opinion. Nor should you.

    Really your trying to convince the chief NOT to change the SOG and disallow members exercising their personal preference. To make a strong case you should ask yourself what is the current motivation for the chief to change the SOG. It sounds like it has been around for a while.. why does he want to change it? Are their liability concerns? Have there been problems with people taking advantage of the SOG? Maybe modifying their personal helmets to look like hockey goalies?

    Find out why he's trying to change the SOG and then present viable alternatives that still solve his concerns.

    I know in my department we are issued plastic 1010's but the SOG allows for members to purchase their own helmets. Instead of generic "same color & style" my department specifies alternatives.. Ben2, N6.. I forget the specific list.

    If liability and consistency are the primary concerns of your chief then perhaps changing the SOG to present a specific list of alternatives may solve his concerns and still allow the members choice.

    EDIT: It is good that the chief is giving you a chance to present your case. Keep in mind that it is still his prerogative. In the end you thank him for the chance and go with what the chief says.
    Last edited by voyager9; 08-27-2010 at 09:50 AM.
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  13. #53
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    Again... I'm not saying to use some Leather lid my great grandfather gave me as a gift. I'm asking to have a choice of Leather or Plastic that are both NFPA complaint and meet or exceed all safety requirements set by NFPA and OSHA.

    Wow! I came looking for research/facts and all I've been given is a discussion/argument. I respect all of your opinions, really I do, but please help a brother out over here! I NEED RESEARCH, FACTS, LITERATURE.


    Several questions and then I won't be in here again.

    1. Have you contacted any helmet makers for their literature and information sheets?

    2. Have you contact the NFPA to get a copy of the helmet standard?

    3. Have you physically contacted any other close by fire department and see what they are wearing and why?

    4. What happen if you lose and the Fire Chief prevails? Which he will.

    A Chief of Department sets procedures and policies. If you old Chief retired and the City and or County hired a new Chief, be it from within or outside, they are going to look at everything. procedures, policies, rules, guidelines. They may keep things running the same for a while. But I will bet you dollar for dollar, things are going to change. The new Chief will instituted new policies, procedure and guidelines. The rank and file may think it is nuttier than a fruit cake, but the Chief is the Chief and his policies and etc. will be followed.

    It doesn't matter to me what type of helmet they have. I have worn all make, models, styles and composition. If they are buying it, then I am wearing it.



    I wish you luck. Don't cut your head off to spite your face. You may want to get promoted one day and this Chief may be the guy who you have interview with.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  14. #54
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Let me start this out by saying I am not opposed to leather helmets. I wore a N5A for 10 years and 2 different N6A's for 5 years. My problem was durability, my 2-N6A's literally fell apart after about 5 years. The cost, for me, was prohibitive. By the way, my Chieftan plastic traditional is over 10 years old and still going strong.

    If you go in there with the tactic that you are going to prove to him the leather helmet is better then you are wasting your breath. Sorry guys, it is not. All fire helmets have a standard to meet and if they meet the same standard they are equals in protection. Well, at least according to the standard.

    I would take a different tact and the one we used at work to allow us to buy traditional helmets. Which are plastic traditionals by the way. We hit it as a morale issue. The guys that wanted it were more than willing to pay for their own helmets so there was no additional expense to the city. We went through a trial period and the plan was accepted. Um, guess what? Now all the new helmets the city buys are platic traditionals.

    Frankly, if you go into the chief's office with the attitude you have expressed here you will lose. A clear cut reason why, and a strong defense of that position, will get you much farther than your adversarial tone.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-27-2010 at 10:10 PM.
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  15. #55
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    MAP:

    I'm sorry you're not liking what you're seeing here.

    But, you're making this a lot harder that it needs to be.

    Just ask the Chief for a few minutes of his time. Calmly visit with him about the issue to see if he open to a compromise on the helmets. Ask him if members can be allowed to buy their own helmets as long as they meet the department policy.

    I think this may be the last card you can play.

    I am curious where the other members are on this. Are you the only one that is making an issue of this?


    If you try to make any argument that Leather is better, or because of tradition, you will lose on this my friend.

    Just stay calm and speak with confidence.

    I deal with these little issues everyday.

    I tend to listen more intently when guys state a 'well thought out' presentation. I appreciate honesty and originality. Every once in a while, someone will truly impress me with their idea or solution.

    If they start talking about their rights, tradition, or "just because", the discussion ends sooner than later.

    Just a few more thoughts for you to consider.

    Good Luck.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  16. #56
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Tradition?

    I knew it was just a matter of time before someone gave us the big T.

    If I hung on to the tradition, I wouldn't be here.

    We traded our horses in a long time ago.

    Perhaps we need to go back to the time before Nomax and Kevlar.

    Maybe we need to send the CAFs back since we don't need them.

    Oh, we don't need towers and ladders either.

    Hell, break out the buckets boys...



    I don't mind tradition. Keep some of the tradition if you like.

    But, sometimes you have to embrace a thing called Progress.
    Well,about every 50 years or so what was old becomes new. Won't happen in OUR lifetimes but IF we keep gobbling oil don't be REAL surprised if a Horse once again finds it's way to the Front. A leather helmet,PROPERLY cared for,will last an AVERAGE FF's career.Assuming of course you didn't have that pesky NFPA 10year ruling. But what the hell,let's throw out EVERYTHING traditional as we all know NO good can come from traditions. Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-27-2010 at 10:10 PM.

  17. #57
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Talking That Too........

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.

    I Think SC might know of that Group.......... Something about thinking like a Donkey comes to mind.........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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    www.gdvfd18.com

  18. #58
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I Think SC might know of that Group.......... Something about thinking like a Donkey comes to mind.........
    Harve, my ESTEEMED friend,I've come to the conclusion that there are NOW few THINKING people left in the USA.And ZERO practical thinkers in Washington DC. Glad I live on 100 acres of working farm,I'll EAT no matter what happens. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-28-2010 at 09:38 AM.

  19. #59
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Well,about every 50 years or so what was old becomes new. Won't happen in OUR lifetimes but IF we keep gobbling oil don't be REAL surprised if a Horse once again finds it's way to the Front. A leather helmet,PROPERLY cared for,will last an AVERAGE FF's career.Assuming of course you didn't have that pesky NFPA 10year ruling. But what the hell,let's throw out EVERYTHING traditional as we all know NO good can come from traditions. Why don't we throw out the Constitution while we're at it.We're making a pretty good start. T.C.
    Really? A properly cared for leather helmet will last an AVERAGE firefighter's career? You mean like cleaning it and keeping the bare spots touched up with paint? Golly, I did that, and my 2 Sam Houston N6A's fell apart on the back brim at about 5 years old each. Just for the record, NO, I did not heat them and bend the brim. I used them on my volly FD and as an instructor at the tech college. I sure loved wearing them but replacing a leather helmet every 5 years in just plain insane, as well as costly.

    Not all tradition is bad, and for damn sure, not all tradition is good. Justifying wearing a helmet because of tradition just doesn't cut it.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    You need to do your own research rather than asking others to do it for you.
    What is the point of having a forum for people to ask questions if all you are going to do is get snotty with them and send them somewhere else? Your answer could cover almost every thread in the forum. Just like momma always said, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

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