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    Default NIMS should be dissolved

    I am discussing this in a different forum and it occurred to me that with all the NIMS demands, that the cost benefit of NIMS as an organization is terrible.

    The money that runs that program has got to be substantial and the benefit from them is negligible if it even exists at all.

    Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?

    We need to get rid of NIMS just for the sake of budget issues and volunteer departments the costs involved are too high. At least we cant seem to ask NIMS for any accountability.

    No, I already know.... they are not worth the effort anymore since they expanded past a training source.

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    I think the President of NIMS has been up to some shenanigans with all that money!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?
    You must live in that utopia I've heard about where different local, state, and federal agencies were working together in perfect harmony before NIMS came along. A place where no one argued about jurisdiction. Must have been nice.

    NIMS training sure can be a pain and certainly doesn't solve everything, but it better than what was going on before. At least there is some guidance on how things need to be operating. Sure, parts aren't terribly relevant to everyone, but thats what you get whenever you implement any standard.

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    Jam, I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, but you do understand that NIMS isn't an organization, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u
    Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?
    Tell that to one of our local PD's who didn't play well with their FD because for the the PD, "Side A" is "wherever the threat of injury is greatest" and "can change several times during an incident." NIMS education finally explained the the PD how it's really supposed to work.

    NIMS might be a pain in the butt, but it is helping to organize emergency services across the US, especially those organizations who might not have been using NIMS/ICS as routinely as the fire service.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 08-28-2010 at 12:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    I am discussing this in a different forum and it occurred to me that with all the NIMS demands, that the cost benefit of NIMS as an organization is terrible.

    The money that runs that program has got to be substantial and the benefit from them is negligible if it even exists at all.

    Doesn't the emergency services already understand pretty well the jurisdiction issues that NIMS is really about?

    We need to get rid of NIMS just for the sake of budget issues and volunteer departments the costs involved are too high. At least we cant seem to ask NIMS for any accountability.

    No, I already know.... they are not worth the effort anymore since they expanded past a training source.
    Jim I am with you buddy. Let’s gather the troops and rally in front of 1600 Pennsylvania Av. We can carry signs that say”we are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore” Seriously they are getting over board with the NIMS. Most of our volunteer firefighters have two jobs already and they take care of the kids while mother works just to pay the bills. With all the other training in the fire service they have to do they seem to get over burdened with all those NIMS numbers you have to learn. NIMS are running some good people away from volunteering at the fire department. I had two well trained firefighters quit because they just didn’t have the time to take all the classes. They said if they couldn’t give their all or their best at doing something like firefighting than they just wouldn’t do it at all. They couldn’t do it half way and take a chance of getting someone hurt. I can understand that and I thanked them for being honest.
    I have a simple way to determine who is in charge of a scene. The one with the most 0’s at the end of their pay check. That would mean I couldn’t even bring them a cup of coffee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    I am discussing this in a different forum and it occurred to me that with all the NIMS demands, that the cost benefit of NIMS as an organization is terrible.
    Does it still elide you that NIMS isn't an organization?

    We need to get rid of NIMS just for the sake of budget issues and volunteer departments the costs involved are too high.
    What costs are associated with NIMS that you're so worked up about? Shouldn't we just get rid of all training because it costs money?

    At least we cant seem to ask NIMS for any accountability.
    Of course not. You can't ask a set of SOPs for accountability.

    they are not worth the effort anymore since they expanded past a training source.
    Who the f--- are "they"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Jam, I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this, but you do understand that NIMS isn't an organization, right?
    It would appear not.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    This sounds like someone (not the OP) is throwing around the name "NIMS" for something other then what it is...

    We implemented it and it really wasn't a big deal, we even have guys at the highest level of IMS training and again... t'weren't much.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Are any of yall getting your PD and EMS agencies to do NIMS training? It seems like all the crap is required but only the FD is doing it.
    FF/Paramedic

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    I haven't experienced any issues with ICS or NIMS within the fire department. Since its inception I just incorporate ICS 100, 200 & 700 into the training requirement. Once it is completed, it is done.

    Officers must take the 16 hour ICS300, and if they are Captain or higher, ICS400. But they have a choice, do it or step away from the rank and responsibility.

    The biggest issue I have seen is trying to educate the local elected folks that run the government. They don't understand that they too must play ball.

    With federal money increasingly dependent on compliance, it might improve the odds of a payday.

    I just wish that some of the basic principals of ICS would be excercised by some Federal Agencies when they come out and play with us. But I think that is a leadership failure.

    Jam... I understand your concern and would be glad to offer some suggestions if you wish. Contact me anytime sir.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Are any of yall getting your PD and EMS agencies to do NIMS training? It seems like all the crap is required but only the FD is doing it.
    Not sure about yours but with the exception of some recent new hires that is being taking care pretty quick all of my LE and EMS are 100% compliant as well as at least 80% of my firefighters county wide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    Are any of yall getting your PD and EMS agencies to do NIMS training? It seems like all the crap is required but only the FD is doing it.
    I my volly county, Fire Department and Sheriff's Office have at least 700 and 100, and the supervisors have 200, 300, and 400 depending on rank. EMS has been much less compliant.

    At work, every firefighter, police officer, EMS volunteer, dispatcher, county executive, school board member, school supervisory staff, and public works supervisors have have at least through 200, and once again, 300, 400, and special tracks of 800 are delivered depending on position within local government.
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    Sorry, I have been away. Been occupied with getting seven of my chapter members to the 8/28-29 event in Washington DC. Being flooded by new memberships. Yesterday I went to Lincoln to pick up four of my attendees after getting of on the event buses. Then had to drive to KC to pick up my son and family who just returned from Iraq a few weeks ago. 49 weeks was a long depoyment and now we have to load everyone for out of town football games.

    Tag that all into fire meetings, training and NIMS and being on the National Tea Party council, I haven't been able to keep up with the forums this last week and the upcoming week.

    Maybe tying them all in and then encountering a NIMS compliancy timetable handed down to us by our county EMA has got me a little punchy about NIMS, and ICS...

    No I was right............NIMS sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Maybe tying them all in and then encountering a NIMS compliancy timetable handed down to us by our county EMA has got me a little punchy about NIMS, and ICS...
    The NIMS compliance timetable (for those who choose to comply) was published in 2008. What took so long? (BTW, NIMS is ICS.)

    No I was right............NIMS sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    No, you simply don't have the vaguest understanding of what NIMS actually is...
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-31-2010 at 02:03 PM. Reason: typo
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    Cool Ics/nims

    Working in Southern California, ICS now adopted nationally, changed and renamed NIMS has always been the way that has always worked.

    Working for the Army and seeing how initially they "just did not get it" that just because of rank you're not always the boss, it's about who has the specialty training/equipment to handle the incident that should be the IC. Now that NIMS has been required, it's taken care of that aspect and now they understand how it works. Pretty hard for Colonels and Generals to take "no, Sir you can't go in there" from a Civilian even harder for them to swallow that just because they're the "Heavy Brass" doesn't make them in-charge.

    I recently attended a Table Top MasCal Training Exercise and was amazed that all the Directors (both Civilian and Military) have been required to take NIMS 700 and 800. It made the Training run so much smoother and our Colonel (he's been on Post for about 2 months or so) realize how well our agencies can work together. Now, I'm not gonna say we're perfect but I have seen a HUGE improvement with how NIMS and ICS has ironed-out a lot of our wrinkles.

    As far as getting rid of NIMS, my opinion is that we need to keep it. The USFS, BLM, Coast Guard, FDs, DOD and even Law Enforcement has been using it; and it works. In areas that don't have Hi-Rises then don't implement positions like "Lobby Control" and such, but if you have a District that you run into even 4th or 5th Alarm then know what the job does. Nothing wrong with keeping the NIMS Field Guide or a Field Operations Guide in your turnouts and reviewing your responsibilities while enroute to the Call.

    Well, reckon I'll get off my soapbox. I've been introduced to the ICS since I was a Paid-Call FF and I've seen it work on every call that it was implemented on. I have seen good calls go really bad due to a lack of "Command and Control" because a Command System was not implemented.
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    Cool Another Thought.....

    Did anybody else catch that during the Gulf Coast Oil Spill the Admiral from the Coast Guard was identifying himself as the "IC" on T.V. He even said that "Task Forces" were being assembled to help handle the surface level oil.

    I caught it and told my wife..... She kinda giggled and said "well I guess you can teach an ole dog a new trick....." She's so witty.....
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Working in Southern California, ICS now adopted nationally, changed and renamed NIMS has always been the way that has always worked.

    Working for the Army and seeing how initially they "just did not get it" that just because of rank you're not always the boss, it's about who has the specialty training/equipment to handle the incident that should be the IC. Now that NIMS has been required, it's taken care of that aspect and now they understand how it works. Pretty hard for Colonels and Generals to take "no, Sir you can't go in there" from a Civilian even harder for them to swallow that just because they're the "Heavy Brass" doesn't make them in-charge.

    I recently attended a Table Top MasCal Training Exercise and was amazed that all the Directors (both Civilian and Military) have been required to take NIMS 700 and 800. It made the Training run so much smoother and our Colonel (he's been on Post for about 2 months or so) realize how well our agencies can work together. Now, I'm not gonna say we're perfect but I have seen a HUGE improvement with how NIMS and ICS has ironed-out a lot of our wrinkles.

    As far as getting rid of NIMS, my opinion is that we need to keep it. The USFS, BLM, Coast Guard, FDs, DOD and even Law Enforcement has been using it; and it works. In areas that don't have Hi-Rises then don't implement positions like "Lobby Control" and such, but if you have a District that you run into even 4th or 5th Alarm then know what the job does. Nothing wrong with keeping the NIMS Field Guide or a Field Operations Guide in your turnouts and reviewing your responsibilities while enroute to the Call.

    Well, reckon I'll get off my soapbox. I've been introduced to the ICS since I was a Paid-Call FF and I've seen it work on every call that it was implemented on. I have seen good calls go really bad due to a lack of "Command and Control" because a Command System was not implemented.
    Mikeyboy you did good posting a reply. I can tell you had some good upbringing. That is the right way to disagree with someone. Jam knows that NIMS is not an organization but however it was a group of individuals that pushed it down our throats. Jam is not a new babe, He has been around the block a time or two. If you learn and train on ICS like we have had in place for years then you will do ok managing a scene. “Hopefully”
    The other guy that posted here three or four times needs to go to some anger management classes. There is no need to dog him for two days in a row just because you don’t agree with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    The NIMS compliance timetable (for those who choose to comply) was published in 2008. What took so long? (BTW, NIMS is ICS.)



    No, you simply don't have the vaguest understanding of what NIMS actually is...
    Deputy Marshall, in the other thread you said some of us volunteer departments needed to bite the bullet and get our own trainers trained for 300 and 400.

    I just shot that statement full of holes in the volunteer section. We departments who get no federal funding to our $10,000 a year budgets spend the money to get trainers trained? You also mentioned that we do it because we work during the week and because the federal instructors do not work weekends, that is why we should fork out to get the trainers? You sound almost like your from a paid department. That our weekends are expendable and theirs are not? That type of position is exactly the problems we are having with out of control government at this time. They continue to demand more from us. NIMS is only a small part of those overwhelming avalanche of codes and regulations and certifications. We small all volunteer departments appear to be the easy ones that they want to dump this on. Our state ema is the agency collecting and putting the pressure on us because they are getting even more pressure it seems.

    As I said. All that really needs to be done is to have monthly NIMS training sessions for one member per department. NIMS use their dime to bring the attendee to them and keep their own records. ''Every emergency responder in the nation'' give me a break America.'' I want to see everyone involved with the NIMS agency providing certifications for accountability for us.

    Otherwise Dep Marsh,,, you can use your own money to come here and train us. I would be grateful. Till then .,... enough is enough.

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    Cool

    it was a group of individuals that pushed it down our throats.
    What.....? This happens there too...... LOL. I've always been a proponent that if an area has a System that works for them then good. I also feel though that we also need to train on a National System for when National, Multi-jurisdictional and/or Major Incidents occur we can all be on the same page.

    There is no need to dog him for two days in a row just because you don’t agree with him.
    What.....? Wouldn't be a Firehouse conversation if that never happened..... LOL.

    Thanks for the compliments. I do have some awesome backbone Chiefs/C.O. and Mentors that have raised me right.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    I just shot that statement full of holes in the volunteer section. We departments who get no federal funding to our $10,000 a year budgets spend the money to get trainers trained?
    I think money is a weak excuse. Not every member has to have 300 or 400. In fact, in NJ, most departments only need their highest level officer to have 300. More to the point, the training is free from a few state and county agencies.

    They continue to demand more from us. NIMS is only a small part of those overwhelming avalanche of codes and regulations and certifications. We small all volunteer departments appear to be the easy ones that they want to dump this on. Our state ema is the agency collecting and putting the pressure on us because they are getting even more pressure it seems.
    What else are you being required to be trained on, except for NIMS? What codes and regulations?

    I can't believe this is an issue... ?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jam24u View Post
    Deputy Marshall, in the other thread you said some of us volunteer departments needed to bite the bullet and get our own trainers trained for 300 and 400.
    Actually I said "take the bull by the horns." If you want to be more NIMS compliant you're having such a hard time gettting NIMS training for the few officers who need one of the two courses not available online, show some initiative and contract a course at a more convenient time and place.

    I just shot that statement full of holes in the volunteer section.
    No, you've just ranted some more and, once again, shown that you have very little understanding of what NIMS is and is not.

    We departments who get no federal funding to our $10,000 a year budgets spend the money to get trainers trained?
    First of all, if you aren't getting any federal money, you don't have to be NIMS compliant. Secondly, how are you funding the rest of your training? If you have no qualified trainers available anyway then NIMS is the least of your problems. Maybe it's time to find a new hobby?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    First of all, if you aren't getting any federal money, you don't have to be NIMS compliant.
    Some states do require it. NJ is one of them.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Some states do require it. NJ is one of them.
    Which comes right back around to what I've said from the start: It sounds like jam's issue is with a state agency -- nots with NIMS.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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