SCBA bottles

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09-01-2010, 01:01 PM
Capt387

Quote:

Originally Posted by The nots so new FNG

I read through this and man is it a bunch of crap.

Personally - I see the need for a standard size cylinder or cylinders to be used with a singular standard valve threading. The proprietary part should come from the valve assembly needed and nothing more.

This is NOT rocket science here. Scuba divers have used interchangable cylinders for decades! Simply match the valve, capacity and pressure to the pack and you should be good.

This *does* need changed in a bad way.

Heck, you can even mix and mach regulators (both primary and secondary and octos) Go figure....
09-01-2010, 01:04 PM
neiowa

Then lobby NIOSH. They make the rules not the SCBA mfg.

Anyone know how can sell a 30yr cylinder when DOT will only allow 15yr (for cylinder from SCBA mfg. Great sales but is the warranty "real" and endorsed by NFPA or NIOSH,
09-01-2010, 01:27 PM
Capt387

Quote:

Originally Posted by neiowa

Then lobby NIOSH. They make the rules not the SCBA mfg.

Anyone know how can sell a 30yr cylinder when DOT will only allow 15yr (for cylinder from SCBA mfg. Great sales but is the warranty "real" and endorsed by NFPA or NIOSH,

for depts still at 2216lp you still can use a solid aluminum that can be tested indefinitely
09-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Lewiston2FF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt387

for depts still at 2216lp you still can use a solid aluminum that can be tested indefinitely

The OP said 30 year 45 minute cylinders. The only 2216 cylinders out there are 25 minute ones. The 45 minute cylinders are 4500 psi.
09-01-2010, 01:56 PM
DeputyMarshal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt387

In your own link there is an exception to the rule, granted not to the SCI issue, but to use another mfg cylinder in an emergency need, what is defined as an emergency?

IMHO, the letter outlines it pretty clearly. What's crystal clear is that you can't plan to mix and match SCBA as part of your day-to-day respirator operations. The only time it is permitted is for an immediate life threatening emergency when it's the only option and only then for the duration of the emergency.

Quote:

To them in the way it is written it doesn't matter that the failure could have been in the SCBA itself and that they don't make the cylinders.

Keep in mind that it's not just CYA on their part. A "mix and matched" SCBA/cylinder isn't NIOSH approved as an entire unit -- that's at the heart of their warranties.

Quote:

There is no completely broken down definition

A fire, by itself, isn't an emergency for the agency responding to it. The exception is only provided where immediate life safety is involved i.e. an immediate rescue made possible by mixing and matching in a pinch.
09-01-2010, 02:00 PM
DeputyMarshal

Quote:

Originally Posted by The nots so new FNG

This is NOT rocket science here. Scuba divers have used interchangable cylinders for decades!

Sport divers using non-NIOSH certified equipment in a receational setting. Fire service SCBA is NIOSH certified as a unit for specific uses -- it's held to a much higher standard than recreational SCUBA gear.
09-01-2010, 02:14 PM
Capt387

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF

The OP said 30 year 45 minute cylinders. The only 2216 cylinders out there are 25 minute ones. The 45 minute cylinders are 4500 psi.

Shawn, 2216 solid aluminum cylinders are still alive and well in teh rural setting. They are 45 cubic feet in capacity, a 30 minute rating and have a indefinite shelf life according to the standard. Anything rated under 30 minute is considered an escape unit only
09-01-2010, 02:24 PM
Lewiston2FF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt387

Shawn, 2216 solid aluminum cylinders are still alive and well in teh rural setting. They are 45 cubic feet in capacity, a 30 minute rating and have a indefinite shelf life according to the standard. Anything rated under 30 minute is considered an escape unit only

I agree that the 2216 cylinders are alive and well in the rural and not so rural settings. we still have some in the station and in service on our chiefs vehicles. They were in service up until 4 years ago. But the OP said they were 30 year 45 minute cylinders. I said 2216 25 minute cylinders because I have yet to see anyone get a full 30 minutes out of them when working. I realized they are sold as 30 minute, 45 minute, and 60 minute cylinders. Should've just left it at that.
09-01-2010, 02:32 PM
Capt387

[QUOTE=DeputyMarshal;1201916]IMHO, the letter outlines it pretty clearly. What's crystal clear is that you can't plan to mix and match SCBA as part of your day-to-day respirator operations. The only time it is permitted is for an immediate life threatening emergency when it's the only option and only then for the duration of the emergency.

Keep in mind that it's not just CYA on their part. A "mix and matched" SCBA/cylinder isn't NIOSH approved (NIOSH will not fine you, OSHA will. NIOSH states how a unit will be manufactured and leave the plant, thats it) as an entire unit -- that's at the heart of their warranties.(NIOSH doesn't warranty anything)

A fire, by itself, isn't an emergency for the agency responding to it. The exception is only provided where immediate life safety is involved i.e. an immediate rescue made possible by mixing and matching in a pinch. (or is it likeI said the need to work together as a group, your FD and mutual aid? Just becuase you have brand Y scba and have run out of cyliders and your mutual aid helping you has brand Z still has cylinders, does that mean you just quit? Sorry I am out of Air, leave the mutual aid unprotected since they have cylinders but you don't?)[/QUOTE]

Look, this is a issue helped along by the scba manufacturers, to keep you loyal to them. they load you up in spare cylinders make it "un-economical" to change brands of SCBA due to your total investment, to change out 10 scba unitgs now requires you to by 20 extra cylinders. Instead of it taking $35,000 to change out 10 scba, when you throw in the factor of trashing 20 new cylinders your FD just bought within the last 5yrs, now we gotta spend $20,000 more? Go figure where its going....

BTW yes I used to be a salesman. I and sold quite a few units over time and several instances I ran into competitors that had the same base numbers on their luxfer cylinders, other than the little company logos they came off the line brand y went to the left, brand z went to the right for their labels before composite wrapping.
09-01-2010, 02:37 PM
Capt387

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF

I agree that the 2216 cylinders are alive and well in the rural and not so rural settings. we still have some in the station and in service on our chiefs vehicles. They were in service up until 4 years ago. But the OP said they were 30 year 45 minute cylinders. I said 2216 25 minute cylinders because I have yet to see anyone get a full 30 minutes out of them when working. I realized they are sold as 30 minute, 45 minute, and 60 minute cylinders. Should've just left it at that.

Given the same situations you can't get 60 minutes out of a 60 minute cylinder either. 2216 or 4500 30 min rated both have 45 cubic feet, a 60 minute has only 88, 3 cubic feet shy of doubling the 30 for time.

So, you have a dept is using 4500 and 2216 mixed?
09-01-2010, 02:47 PM
DeputyMarshal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt387

NIOSH will not fine you, OSHA will. NIOSH states how a unit will be manufactured and leave the plant, thats it)....(NIOSH doesn't warranty anything)[/

Erm... Did anyone state otherwise? :confused:

Quote:

or is it likeI said the need to work together as a group, your FD and mutual aid? Just becuase you have brand Y scba and have run out of cyliders and your mutual aid helping you has brand Z still has cylinders, does that mean you just quit?

Yes, that's exactly it. You only have the option to mix and match if it's to perform an immediate life saving action and that's your only option as stated previously.

Quote:

Sorry I am out of Air, leave the mutual aid unprotected since they have cylinders but you don't?

Unprotected doing what? If it's not immediate life saving activity, it's time for them to fall back to a safe position where SCBA isn't required; their reserve resources have been exhausted.

Quote:

Look, this is a issue helped along by the scba manufacturers, to keep you loyal to them.

SCBA manufacturers don't write NIOSH or OSHA standards.

Quote:

Go figure where its going....

Ask the tort lawyers.
09-01-2010, 02:52 PM
jbrescue

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFDACM02

For those who are buying the SCI bottles or Luxfer for that matter, who's valve assembly do you use? All the bottles I've seen from SCI direct came with no valve? I agree this is just another money grab by the larger SCBA manufacturers, but in the end it will only drive up the costs of their SCBA as they recoup the money "lost" through other products and services. It's like taxing the crap out of businesses, the cost of the goods are just raised to cover the loss.

We did not go through a dealer for our bottles, we bought them direct from SCI. We bought their valves only because someone misplaced ours. We had some older bottles get condemned after hydro. So, we took the valves out. We were planning to use those until they vanished. Then the only difference would have been our logo instead of theirs.
09-01-2010, 06:18 PM
RFDACM02

Can't force manufacturers to assume liability

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrescue

We did not go through a dealer for our bottles, we bought them direct from SCI. We bought their valves only because someone misplaced ours. We had some older bottles get condemned after hydro. So, we took the valves out. We were planning to use those until they vanished. Then the only difference would have been our logo instead of theirs.

This is where the liability issue come in. If you install the valve assembly the SCBA manufacturer and probably SCI will not warranty the bottle as they didn't assemble it. It's actually quite logical that you cannot hold a manufacturer liable for equipment that they had no control over. In the end I don't see how any rule changes will force the SCBA manufacturers to extend their warranty to product they didn't build or specifically authorize the assembly of by persons they deem competent.

We'd all like to save some money, but how many people would advocate reinstalling aftermarket air bags in an automobile yourself? Or taking the seatbelts out of an old fire truck and installing them yourself in the FD's new converted oil tanker come water tender?

Really this issue is just SCI causing a headache by trying to make a little extra on the side by selling bottle retail.
09-01-2010, 06:32 PM
DeputyMarshal

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFDACM02

Really this issue is just SCI causing a headache by trying to make a little extra on the side by selling bottle retail.

Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head. They get to dump surplus cylinders on unsuspecting SCBA users with very limited product liability.
09-01-2010, 07:28 PM
Catch22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rescue101

No schit Sherlock. But if you ordered a SCI for a NGX,I BET it will come with the right valve on it. The SCI's we just got are mirror image Scott(2.2)cylinders MINUS the Scott logo.Valve is proper angle,has three sided twist handle,only visible difference is color of background on the pressure gauge. T.C.

That was actually a general reference. Been a long night when I posted that and after a second look I thought you were going somewhere else with that post, anyway.
09-01-2010, 08:03 PM
volfireman034

As stated before the REAL issue is not that of safety, it's of greedy SCBA manufactures like scott trying to milk us for every dime they can. They loddied the powers to be better then the bottle company's and the fire departments did plain and simple. Just about everything else in the fire industry can be mixed and match with no problems. (example, fire hose, nozzles, heck even turn outs.) We as fire departments need to stop complaining to our selves and start being much more pro-active in pushing for better and more realistic rules and regulations. We all want to be safe that's a given but we can be safe and realistic also. It shouldn't matter what decal is on a product if it meets standards.
09-01-2010, 10:23 PM
RFDACM02

Quote:

Originally Posted by volfireman034

As stated before the REAL issue is not that of safety, it's of greedy SCBA manufactures like scott trying to milk us for every dime they can. They loddied the powers to be better then the bottle company's and the fire departments did plain and simple. Just about everything else in the fire industry can be mixed and match with no problems. (example, fire hose, nozzles, heck even turn outs.) We as fire departments need to stop complaining to our selves and start being much more pro-active in pushing for better and more realistic rules and regulations. We all want to be safe that's a given but we can be safe and realistic also. It shouldn't matter what decal is on a product if it meets standards.

So if I stick a Chevy drivers seat in my Ford, Ford should warranty the damage and accept the liability of the conversion given the Chevy seat meets DOT spec? It's about product liability. No manufacturer of any goods will offer a warranty or accept liability when you the end user modifies the product as it left their factory. It's pretty naive to not understand this basic concept. While we all want to be able to buy more for our buck, it is not nearly as simple as petitioning OSHA, NIOSH, NFPA or DHS. You are talking about manufacturers having to accept liability for things they have no control over, never going to happen.
09-01-2010, 10:30 PM
Catch22

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFDACM02

So if I stick a Chevy drivers seat in my Ford, Ford should warranty the damage and accept the liability of the conversion given the Chevy seat meets DOT spec? It's about product liability. No manufacturer of any goods will offer a warranty or accept liability when you the end user modifies the product as it left their factory. It's pretty naive to not understand this basic concept. While we all want to be able to buy more for our buck, it is not nearly as simple as petitioning OSHA, NIOSH, NFPA or DHS. You are talking about manufacturers having to accept liability for things they have no control over, never going to happen.

So if I put AC Delco plugs in a Ford they won't warrantee it? Or if I use Motorcraft oil and a Wix filter in my GMC?

If you get right down to it, the bottle has little-to-nothing to do with the operation of the SCBA, it's the air inside. The bottle is built to the same standards as the manufacturer's bottle (in most cases in the same factory) and has nothing to do with the functional portion of the unit.

I think if I was Scott, MSA, Draeger, or whoever, I'd worry more about the FD's out there that don't do regular air testing on their compressors, which can cause more damage than the cylinder that doesn't have anything to do with the actual operation of the unit.
09-01-2010, 11:32 PM
volfireman034

If the air bottle were made by a 3rd party that none of the SCBA companies used that would be one thing. But Scott and all them are telling firefighters not to use a component that they them selves use. That just doesn;t make sense. It would be like Ford saying you can only get parts at a Ford dealer or you loose your warranty ever though the same parts are at parts stores for cheaper.
09-02-2010, 06:27 AM
The nots so new FNG

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal

Sport divers using non-NIOSH certified equipment in a receational setting. Fire service SCBA is NIOSH certified as a unit for specific uses -- it's held to a much higher standard than recreational SCUBA gear.

Bull.

Underwater is an IDLH environment too. Scuba divers generally have far less training and expierence overall than firefighters. Thier equipment can go to far more dangerous places. It may not be NIOSH but trust me, it is still held to a high standard.

NIOSH certfies only the EXACT item they test. In theory, if the SCBA facepiece did not include glasses inserts, then using them voids the NIOSH rating. Change an item on a strap - not to NIOSH standard. This is the same with the Underwriters labs - they only certify exactly what they test. This is not a bad thing btw - but does require some common sense.

OSHA now states only NIOSH certfied equipment is OK. This is the problem area. OSHA should look at the equipment and make a reasonable determination on what is and is not critical to the function of the equipment. An exact tank is not critical to the function - especially since the tanks are designed to be changed by the user. The valve used - sure but not the tank itself.

I see requireing a cylinder made to a spec. I see requireing a specific valve. The actualy cylinder itself only has to fit the strap clamp and have the proper threading on the neck to accept the valve. (and of course be the right service pressure).

Cylinders are well regulated by the DOT. It is a trivial to install a proper valve into a tank and it is trivial to ensure a proper physical size.

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