Then lobby NIOSH. They make the rules not the SCBA mfg.
Anyone know how can sell a 30yr cylinder when DOT will only allow 15yr (for cylinder from SCBA mfg. Great sales but is the warranty "real" and endorsed by NFPA or NIOSH,
Keep in mind that it's not just CYA on their part. A "mix and matched" SCBA/cylinder isn't NIOSH approved as an entire unit -- that's at the heart of their warranties.Quote:
To them in the way it is written it doesn't matter that the failure could have been in the SCBA itself and that they don't make the cylinders.
A fire, by itself, isn't an emergency for the agency responding to it. The exception is only provided where immediate life safety is involved i.e. an immediate rescue made possible by mixing and matching in a pinch.Quote:
There is no completely broken down definition
[QUOTE=DeputyMarshal;1201916]IMHO, the letter outlines it pretty clearly. What's crystal clear is that you can't plan to mix and match SCBA as part of your day-to-day respirator operations. The only time it is permitted is for an immediate life threatening emergency when it's the only option and only then for the duration of the emergency.
Keep in mind that it's not just CYA on their part. A "mix and matched" SCBA/cylinder isn't NIOSH approved (NIOSH will not fine you, OSHA will. NIOSH states how a unit will be manufactured and leave the plant, thats it) as an entire unit -- that's at the heart of their warranties.(NIOSH doesn't warranty anything)
A fire, by itself, isn't an emergency for the agency responding to it. The exception is only provided where immediate life safety is involved i.e. an immediate rescue made possible by mixing and matching in a pinch. (or is it likeI said the need to work together as a group, your FD and mutual aid? Just becuase you have brand Y scba and have run out of cyliders and your mutual aid helping you has brand Z still has cylinders, does that mean you just quit? Sorry I am out of Air, leave the mutual aid unprotected since they have cylinders but you don't?)[/QUOTE]
Look, this is a issue helped along by the scba manufacturers, to keep you loyal to them. they load you up in spare cylinders make it "un-economical" to change brands of SCBA due to your total investment, to change out 10 scba unitgs now requires you to by 20 extra cylinders. Instead of it taking $35,000 to change out 10 scba, when you throw in the factor of trashing 20 new cylinders your FD just bought within the last 5yrs, now we gotta spend $20,000 more? Go figure where its going....
BTW yes I used to be a salesman. I and sold quite a few units over time and several instances I ran into competitors that had the same base numbers on their luxfer cylinders, other than the little company logos they came off the line brand y went to the left, brand z went to the right for their labels before composite wrapping.
Yes, that's exactly it. You only have the option to mix and match if it's to perform an immediate life saving action and that's your only option as stated previously.Quote:
or is it likeI said the need to work together as a group, your FD and mutual aid? Just becuase you have brand Y scba and have run out of cyliders and your mutual aid helping you has brand Z still has cylinders, does that mean you just quit?
Unprotected doing what? If it's not immediate life saving activity, it's time for them to fall back to a safe position where SCBA isn't required; their reserve resources have been exhausted.Quote:
Sorry I am out of Air, leave the mutual aid unprotected since they have cylinders but you don't?
SCBA manufacturers don't write NIOSH or OSHA standards.Quote:
Look, this is a issue helped along by the scba manufacturers, to keep you loyal to them.
Ask the tort lawyers.Quote:
Go figure where its going....
We'd all like to save some money, but how many people would advocate reinstalling aftermarket air bags in an automobile yourself? Or taking the seatbelts out of an old fire truck and installing them yourself in the FD's new converted oil tanker come water tender?
Really this issue is just SCI causing a headache by trying to make a little extra on the side by selling bottle retail.
As stated before the REAL issue is not that of safety, it's of greedy SCBA manufactures like scott trying to milk us for every dime they can. They loddied the powers to be better then the bottle company's and the fire departments did plain and simple. Just about everything else in the fire industry can be mixed and match with no problems. (example, fire hose, nozzles, heck even turn outs.) We as fire departments need to stop complaining to our selves and start being much more pro-active in pushing for better and more realistic rules and regulations. We all want to be safe that's a given but we can be safe and realistic also. It shouldn't matter what decal is on a product if it meets standards.
If you get right down to it, the bottle has little-to-nothing to do with the operation of the SCBA, it's the air inside. The bottle is built to the same standards as the manufacturer's bottle (in most cases in the same factory) and has nothing to do with the functional portion of the unit.
I think if I was Scott, MSA, Draeger, or whoever, I'd worry more about the FD's out there that don't do regular air testing on their compressors, which can cause more damage than the cylinder that doesn't have anything to do with the actual operation of the unit.
If the air bottle were made by a 3rd party that none of the SCBA companies used that would be one thing. But Scott and all them are telling firefighters not to use a component that they them selves use. That just doesn;t make sense. It would be like Ford saying you can only get parts at a Ford dealer or you loose your warranty ever though the same parts are at parts stores for cheaper.
Underwater is an IDLH environment too. Scuba divers generally have far less training and expierence overall than firefighters. Thier equipment can go to far more dangerous places. It may not be NIOSH but trust me, it is still held to a high standard.
NIOSH certfies only the EXACT item they test. In theory, if the SCBA facepiece did not include glasses inserts, then using them voids the NIOSH rating. Change an item on a strap - not to NIOSH standard. This is the same with the Underwriters labs - they only certify exactly what they test. This is not a bad thing btw - but does require some common sense.
OSHA now states only NIOSH certfied equipment is OK. This is the problem area. OSHA should look at the equipment and make a reasonable determination on what is and is not critical to the function of the equipment. An exact tank is not critical to the function - especially since the tanks are designed to be changed by the user. The valve used - sure but not the tank itself.
I see requireing a cylinder made to a spec. I see requireing a specific valve. The actualy cylinder itself only has to fit the strap clamp and have the proper threading on the neck to accept the valve. (and of course be the right service pressure).
Cylinders are well regulated by the DOT. It is a trivial to install a proper valve into a tank and it is trivial to ensure a proper physical size.