Thread: SCBA bottles

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    Default SCBA bottles

    We just purchased the new 30 year 45 minute bottles from SCI. We had the local Scott dealer in to test our packs and were told with the SCI bottle the warranty was voided and the pack did not meet OHSA. Has anybody else had this problem? I think Scott is unhappy losing the business. The SCI bottles are 30% cheaper and comply with DOT.

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    I find that hard to belive as Luxifer and SCI are the only 2 manufacters. None of the SCBA manufacters make thier own bottles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAFDCAPT View Post
    We just purchased the new 30 year 45 minute bottles from SCI. We had the local Scott dealer in to test our packs and were told with the SCI bottle the warranty was voided and the pack did not meet OHSA. Has anybody else had this problem? I think Scott is unhappy losing the business. The SCI bottles are 30% cheaper and comply with DOT.
    You may only use Scott bottles with Scott SCBA, MSA bottles with MSA SCBA, etc. Whoever sold you the SCI bottles should have told you that.

    SCBA bottles are nominally interchangeable for emergency use only.

    Hopefully the dealer will have the integrity to buy back the SCI bottles or you can find someone using SCI SCBA who will take them off of your hands.

    Caveat emptor.

    http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...ONS&p_id=23479
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 08-31-2010 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Added link to OSHA interpretation
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    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I find that hard to belive as Luxifer and SCI are the only 2 manufacters. None of the SCBA manufacters make thier own bottles.
    I find it incredible that you claim to be a professional trainer but aren't aware that you can't mix and match SCBA and SCBA bottles...
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAFDCAPT View Post
    We just purchased the new 30 year 45 minute bottles from SCI. We had the local Scott dealer in to test our packs and were told with the SCI bottle the warranty was voided and the pack did not meet OHSA. Has anybody else had this problem? I think Scott is unhappy losing the business. The SCI bottles are 30% cheaper and comply with DOT.
    My understanding is that unless Scott or any manufacturer installs the cylinder valve assembly into the bottle, they will not warranty the use of the bottle on their pack. IIRC Scott uses SCI to make their bottles? Almost all, if not all, SCBA manufacturers say that their SCBA must be stored at the ready with one of their approved bottles, but subsequent bottles used at emergency scenes may be of other manufacture as long as they meet applicable DOT standards.

    This stance on bottle use isn't so unreasonable in my view. No one in their right mind would warranty parts that they have no control over. You could buy their valves and install them at the firehouse in your SCI bottles, but would assume all liability. The allowance for other bottles in emergency use was borne out of true necessity.

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    Both SCI and Luxfer make bottles for most USA pack mfgs.On the legality note,if it wasn't AS TESTED, it is NOT compliant in osha/niosh's eyes. So if it doesn't have the Scott label and Scott valve(on a Scott pack) it would be deemed NON compliant. Be aware that both Luxfer and SCI are working with Fed regulators to get this changed. But as of RIGHT NOW,it hasn't been. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I find that hard to belive as Luxifer and SCI are the only 2 manufacters. None of the SCBA manufacters make thier own bottles.
    They are not the only two manufacturers... but they are darn near 99% of the market.

    No, Scotts and MSA do not make bottles. Luxifer makes the bottles sold with MSA. I am not sure the manufacturer for Scotts, but it should be written on the bottle.
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    Both Luxifer and SCI have made CYLINDERS (bottles are for babies and probies) for SCOTT (have seen them both in our SCBA shop.)

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    Both SCI and Luxfer are lobbying and are in the end process of getting the OSHA regulations changed. The cylinders from the manufacturer are the exact same ones that the SCBA manufacturer uses, minus their logo and the upcharge. We just bought some for CSR with out team logo, not MSA's on them. This crap that we are being held hostage by the manufacturers that sit on the committees has to stop. The only way it will stop, is if we as a Fire Service do not allow it anymore. Why do we need to spend $1100.00 for one hour cylinders from Scott, when I can get the exact same cylinder for around $600.00 from SCI?
    Jason Brooks
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    I'd go above the dealer's head and make a call to Scott to confirm what he's telling you is true. I'm not going to say he's a liar, but I'm not going to say he's telling you the truth, either. He may be a dealer that's upset he lost out on a bottle order and the profit that goes with it. I've dealt with dealers like that and have found a call to Scott often helps.

    As has been mentioned, Luxfer and SCI make nearly all of the cylinders in the US market, including for Scott. The difference between a Scott and MSA (or Survivair, or Drager...) bottle is not the cylinder (at least not below the labels), but the valve assembly. If you'll notice, a Scott pack as the metal hanger to latch into the pack and an angled outlet compared with the valve handle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrescue View Post
    Both SCI and Luxfer are lobbying and are in the end process of getting the OSHA regulations changed. The cylinders from the manufacturer are the exact same ones that the SCBA manufacturer uses, minus their logo and the upcharge. We just bought some for CSR with out team logo, not MSA's on them. This crap that we are being held hostage by the manufacturers that sit on the committees has to stop. The only way it will stop, is if we as a Fire Service do not allow it anymore. Why do we need to spend $1100.00 for one hour cylinders from Scott, when I can get the exact same cylinder for around $600.00 from SCI?

    I'm solidly with Jason on this. The Fire Service should Strongly Support this action.........
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    OK don't tell anyone this lol Buy a few "Scott bottles to send in with scott packs for certifaction then when you ge tthem back put the SCI back on. Yes I know not the best way but hey th real world is fire departments are not rich.

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    For those who are buying the SCI bottles or Luxfer for that matter, who's valve assembly do you use? All the bottles I've seen from SCI direct came with no valve? I agree this is just another money grab by the larger SCBA manufacturers, but in the end it will only drive up the costs of their SCBA as they recoup the money "lost" through other products and services. It's like taxing the crap out of businesses, the cost of the goods are just raised to cover the loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I'd go above the dealer's head and make a call to Scott to confirm what he's telling you is true. I'm not going to say he's a liar, but I'm not going to say he's telling you the truth, either. He may be a dealer that's upset he lost out on a bottle order and the profit that goes with it. I've dealt with dealers like that and have found a call to Scott often helps.

    As has been mentioned, Luxfer and SCI make nearly all of the cylinders in the US market, including for Scott. The difference between a Scott and MSA (or Survivair, or Drager...) bottle is not the cylinder (at least not below the labels), but the valve assembly. If you'll notice, a Scott pack as the metal hanger to latch into the pack and an angled outlet compared with the valve handle.
    As it sits RIGHT NOW,it's true. And the Generic SCI cyl/valve has the tab and angled outlet on it. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-01-2010 at 08:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    OK don't tell anyone this lol Buy a few "Scott bottles to send in with scott packs for certifaction then when you ge tthem back put the SCI back on. Yes I know not the best way but hey th real world is fire departments are not rich.
    UNLESS you have an INCIDENT involving PI or a Fatality. Then you are SCREWED and CAN be denied benefits. Better study your State and Federal regs on this one. You MAY not like what you find. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    For those who are buying the SCI bottles or Luxfer for that matter, who's valve assembly do you use? All the bottles I've seen from SCI direct came with no valve? I agree this is just another money grab by the larger SCBA manufacturers, but in the end it will only drive up the costs of their SCBA as they recoup the money "lost" through other products and services. It's like taxing the crap out of businesses, the cost of the goods are just raised to cover the loss.
    Adam,we just bought 4 SCI's and minus the Scott silkscreen,you can't tell 'em apart. Remind me to show you when you come down. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    As it sits RIGHT NOW,it's true. And the Generic SCI cyl/valve has the tab and angled outlet on it. T.C.
    There's a couple key words: "RIGHT NOW". Of course, I have yet to get my hands on one of the NxG packs, which I think have a different valve set-up. We're still running the tried and true AP 50's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    You may only use Scott bottles with Scott SCBA, MSA bottles with MSA SCBA, etc. Whoever sold you the SCI bottles should have told you that.

    SCBA bottles are nominally interchangeable for emergency use only.

    Hopefully the dealer will have the integrity to buy back the SCI bottles or you can find someone using SCI SCBA who will take them off of your hands.

    Caveat emptor.

    http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...ONS&p_id=23479
    In your own link there is an exception to the rule, granted not to the SCI issue, but to use another mfg cylinder in an emergency need, what is defined as an emergency? Granted the warranty issue is self explanatory, SCOTT or MSA walks away from any failure issue if another cylinder is found on a injured firefighter. To them in the way it is written it doesn't matter that the failure could have been in the SCBA itself and that they don't make the cylinders. Is the emergency need the fact that you have expired all your cylinders and the fire is still a ongoingemergency and the mutual aid dept has the same psi/duration cylinders? There is no completely broken down definition
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    There's a couple key words: "RIGHT NOW". Of course, I have yet to get my hands on one of the NxG packs, which I think have a different valve set-up. We're still running the tried and true AP 50's.
    No schit Sherlock. But if you ordered a SCI for a NGX,I BET it will come with the right valve on it. The SCI's we just got are mirror image Scott(2.2)cylinders MINUS the Scott logo.Valve is proper angle,has three sided twist handle,only visible difference is color of background on the pressure gauge. T.C.

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    I read through this and man is it a bunch of crap.

    Personally - I see the need for a standard size cylinder or cylinders to be used with a singular standard valve threading. The proprietary part should come from the valve assembly needed and nothing more.

    This is NOT rocket science here. Scuba divers have used interchangable cylinders for decades! Simply match the valve, capacity and pressure to the pack and you should be good.

    This *does* need changed in a bad way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The nots so new FNG View Post
    I read through this and man is it a bunch of crap.

    Personally - I see the need for a standard size cylinder or cylinders to be used with a singular standard valve threading. The proprietary part should come from the valve assembly needed and nothing more.

    This is NOT rocket science here. Scuba divers have used interchangable cylinders for decades! Simply match the valve, capacity and pressure to the pack and you should be good.

    This *does* need changed in a bad way.
    Heck, you can even mix and mach regulators (both primary and secondary and octos) Go figure....
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    Then lobby NIOSH. They make the rules not the SCBA mfg.

    Anyone know how can sell a 30yr cylinder when DOT will only allow 15yr (for cylinder from SCBA mfg. Great sales but is the warranty "real" and endorsed by NFPA or NIOSH,

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Then lobby NIOSH. They make the rules not the SCBA mfg.

    Anyone know how can sell a 30yr cylinder when DOT will only allow 15yr (for cylinder from SCBA mfg. Great sales but is the warranty "real" and endorsed by NFPA or NIOSH,
    for depts still at 2216lp you still can use a solid aluminum that can be tested indefinitely
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    for depts still at 2216lp you still can use a solid aluminum that can be tested indefinitely
    The OP said 30 year 45 minute cylinders. The only 2216 cylinders out there are 25 minute ones. The 45 minute cylinders are 4500 psi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    In your own link there is an exception to the rule, granted not to the SCI issue, but to use another mfg cylinder in an emergency need, what is defined as an emergency?
    IMHO, the letter outlines it pretty clearly. What's crystal clear is that you can't plan to mix and match SCBA as part of your day-to-day respirator operations. The only time it is permitted is for an immediate life threatening emergency when it's the only option and only then for the duration of the emergency.

    To them in the way it is written it doesn't matter that the failure could have been in the SCBA itself and that they don't make the cylinders.
    Keep in mind that it's not just CYA on their part. A "mix and matched" SCBA/cylinder isn't NIOSH approved as an entire unit -- that's at the heart of their warranties.

    There is no completely broken down definition
    A fire, by itself, isn't an emergency for the agency responding to it. The exception is only provided where immediate life safety is involved i.e. an immediate rescue made possible by mixing and matching in a pinch.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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