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  1. #1
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    Default Rosenbauer Chassis?

    I had a little birdie tell me that Rosenbauer is going to make their own chassis in the near future so they can be sole source and go after customers that do not care for Spartan and HME. Anybody else heard anything?


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    Who does not care for Spartan or HME? I think Spartan makes a great chassis. Doesent Rosenbauer make their own chassis in Europe?

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    I like Spartan also, but some people do not like them for whatever reason. I heard they wanna be sole source and they were going to manufacture their own chassis. Kind of makes sense since they are one of the top producers according to sales. I guess we will see......

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    its a bad time in this economy for them to do this since the market is off so much. if if does happen, that will put a hurt on spartan since rosy is a big account for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    Who does not care for Spartan or HME?
    Lots of people that I meet in my travels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Lots of people that I meet in my travels.
    .......and the same goes for all of the rest, Pierce, Seagrave, E-One, etc., etc. There's not one cab/chassis that EVERYBODY likes. So what else is new?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadOff View Post
    .......and the same goes for all of the rest, Pierce, Seagrave, E-One, etc., etc. There's not one cab/chassis that EVERYBODY likes. So what else is new?
    Precisely.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainchaos View Post
    I had a little birdie tell me that Rosenbauer is going to make their own chassis in the near future so they can be sole source and go after customers that do not care for Spartan and HME. Anybody else heard anything?
    Also does not Marion make a lot of Chassis Cabs for Spartan.
    As well as this compamy http://www.truckcab.com/category/fire-cabs/

    So are they classed as sole source providers even if Marion built the cab for Spartan and shipped it to them.

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    To some, the term "sole source" means something, to others is does not. There can be a very broad definition of sole source manufacturer or a very narrow one, depending if you're trying to exclude a bidder or two from an apparatus purchase. I think we're it comes into play more significantly at times is in the service after the sale arena. If your truck is truly sole source (e.g., Pierce, Seagrave, E-One), then there shouldn't be any issues in getting any part of the apparatus repaired by the local service center, if you have one. With some of the other guys, there is always the possibility of "finger pointing" between the cab/chassis manufacturer and the outfit that finished the truck. We had a lot of this years back between Simon-Duplex and Saulsbury on some pumpers. I think things are better these days on this issue but I'm not positive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadOff View Post
    If your truck is truly sole source (e.g., Pierce, Seagrave, E-One), then there shouldn't be any issues in getting any part of the apparatus repaired by the local service center, if you have one.
    I think many people dont realize that a "sole source" custom truck has about 85% of its components come from other manufacturers. The engine, suspension, warning lights, tires, pump, transmission, seats, all the way down to the auto eject battery charger come from outside sources. Your local dealer may be able to track down the problem, but it doesnt necessarily mean that they can fix it or wont do finger pointing. I see an awful lot of trucks sitting in Cummins, Detroit and Allison repair shops.
    I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

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    Do some departments really only buy from sole source manufactures? Is being a sole source manufacture really that big of a deal?

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    The bottom line is manufacturers want all the sales they can get. And if we cut to the chase, Brand P s the biggest and if you send out there spec it always says the the cab has to manufactured at the same place as the body, blah, blah, etc....

    I think another brand is now saying the chassis and body has to be built withing so many miles on one another.

    I think the bottom line is that volunteer fire companies are more profitable than municipalities. Most VFC do not write their own spec, they use the manufacturer's. Hence, why Brand P is doing so well. They are full of caveats in their spec. I know some of us know better but the majority (90%) in america do not.


    I am not bashing just Brand P, all manufacturer's do the same thing. My personal preference is a General on a Spartan Gladiator or an E-One on a Cyclone Chassis any day.

    Different strokes for different folks. Just do your homework and weed through the BS and as Firepiper said 85% of the materials on any brand come from the same vendors.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    Do some departments really only buy from sole source manufactures? Is being a sole source manufacture really that big of a deal?
    No, like stated above nobody builds all their components and a lot of them get them from the same place. I'd say 85% is low.

    I have had expierience with most chassis. I prefer Spartan over the rest. All they build is chassis (I know they own Crimson) and they build more than anyone else and they do a damn good job.

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    So want to bet that Rosenbauers new chassis cabs will be built by Marion, and have the same parts as Spartan. So the only difference will be name.

    It takes a fair amount of money and R@D to develop a chassis, will they sell enough to justify the cost?

  15. #15
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    Do some departments really only buy from sole source manufactures?
    Absolutely.

    Is being a sole source manufacture really that big of a deal?
    To some purchasers, yes, it is. To some purchasing agents, it is. To others, the fact that the the chassis, cab, and body are built by different manufacturers is of no significance, and they have (and will continue to) buy non-"sole source" apparatus.

    I'm currently fighting this with my volunteer county now. Due to some past mistakes by other departments within the county, they're insisting that our rig be spec'd for sole source. I'm doing a lot of work to show that many, many manufacturers can build on a Spartan chassis that's as good as any sole source vehicle, and many times, we the purchaser can come ahead in money. Hopefully we'll find out soon.
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    (not entirely related to the chassis' thread but sole source bs none the less)

    A few years ago while working sales, a department asked me to acquire a part, as I was their contact for their emergency lighting and equipment I contacted the manufacturer of that particular part (a whelen manufacturing rotator)

    I spoke with our order person, to which they said that I wasn't allowed to purchase it. The Light (probably the same damn one they use in their various light bar configs.) was only available to that particular company and their dealers (ALF no less)

    So, how I asked are you suppose to replace broken, wornout and defective parts if the chassis builder is no longer in business, no longer has a dealer network and can no longer ensure reasonable replacement times?

    I hate the idea of sole source, it's a silly way of taking generic parts, changing model numbers and calling it sole source, besides, down the road, how can you reasonably ensure you'll be able to continue servicing those vehicles?

    Small volunteer, rural and urban departments run vehicles over 20 years ago.... name 5 companies selling then that aren't now...

    And how easy is it to order parts?

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    in my first hand experience, the sole source thing is only a myth. again, going on now, the sole source provider and engine manufacturer are pointing at each other. Its all great when things work properly, but when something happens, and in this case it did, they both wanna wash their hands of it. If you research intently, spec reasonably, make a decision based on fact and common sense, and final inspect like your life depended on it, you'll be fine with most builders.

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    "Sole source" is a term started by the Org.ALF and Seagraves back when most fire apparatus had Commercial chassis and later continued. The important thing to consider is your dealer, is he a full service dealer authorized to do engine, transmission and pump warranty work? Or is he farming in out to a truck shop and competing with trash and dump trucks. Take a hard look at your dealer he will have to take care of the unit for 20 years.

  19. #19
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    The terms single source / sole source are among the most controversial in apparatus. If you read many of the definitions of single source, the companies don't even meet their own definition of the term. Single source usuallly becomes an issue for one of three reasons:

    1) A department is happy with brand P who builds their own cab, and wants to exclude as many other bidders.
    2) A department has encountered the finger-pointing problem that comes with split responsibility.
    3) A manufacturer wants to reduce the competition from other builders who don't manufacture their own cabs and chassis.

    I think we should focus more on single source responsibility. For example, when you take a Dodge diesel pickup to the dealership with an engine issue, they don't send you to the Cummins dealership. Auto dealers even handle tire warranty issues now. Why should fire trucks be any different?

    There should be a single source (the dealer or the manufacturer) for any issues regarding the apparatus.

    As for personal preference, as long as its a cab/chassis built specifically for the fire service, most are adequate for the job.

    C6

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    Do some departments really only buy from sole source manufactures? Is being a sole source manufacture really that big of a deal?
    Absolutely. Kinda. C6 is right on the money. We bought a MM tower in 2006 and would only accept a sole source under advisement of our consultant. The reasons were fairly easily explained. While everyone uses someone's motor, Allisons tranny, etc. etc. the assembly of body, aerial and chassis by different companies can lead to a lot of finger pointing. Our consultant knew of many cases where an electrical problem was found with the chassis only to be blamed on the body installer, and cases of a similar story. The sole source really for all intents and purposes for us, meant sole-responsibility. We wanted one person to call with all issues. That person handles every problem once reported.

    Go forward 2 years and we bought a Toyne/Spartan rescue pumper, but instead required a sole-responsibility warranty. Now we have a non-sole source engine with the same single source to request problem corrected.

    As far as having the building make every part and assemble it under the same roof? I see no real quantifiable reason. having lived through chassis/builder problem dispute where the chassis people were great and the builder did nothing, I see the value on sole responsibility clauses.

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