1. #1
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    Default Ind. front Susp.

    HELP!!! My Dept, is in a battle for a new engine and the battle is over Indipendant Front Suspension or I beam suspention. The City Councel is adiment about I Beam and the Department wants I.F.S. I need testing info on safety of the IFS vs I beam. I also need turning radious and brakeing distance info. or any info, or web sights on IFS for fire apparatus. Please no cool aid WE ARE IN A SERIOUS FIGHT, Thanks to all!!!

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    I have no personal pro's or con's to add, but I do remember that it more than likely adds height to your apparatus. If you have a restriction keep this in mind. Additionally, there is a cost difference when compared to a standard front axle assembly.

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    *More Weight
    *Increased Cost
    *Reduced Cramp Angles
    *Reduced turning radius
    *More moving parts equal more maintenance.

    Improved ride is marginal and subjective at best. I would stick with the straight beam.

    -- I should note this info is from when we were looking at a Spartan. Not sure how the others fare.

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    Out of almost 50 trucks in service, my dept has one with IFS. It's a Pierce. I can paraphrase from our garage supervisor.

    Parts are expensive. Pierce wants you to go to them for parts. They don't tell you who's making the parts for them, that way you can't just call up and get parts from a competitor.

    After buying the first set of parts from them, you get the part numbers off the box, then take those numbers to your parts supplier and he/she can cross reference them so you can buy them cheaper.

    Plus he says servicing the brakes are a real pain compared to traditional I-Beam & drums.

    The benefits do not, in my opinion, out weigh the costs and trade offs.

    I say stick with an I-beam that carries the weight you need, plus a little extra, and push for the maximum cramp angle you can get.

    Here's a quick primer: Understanding Vehicle Maneuverability
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    Several years ago, we (the apparatus committee at work) made the decision to start using IFS on all of our apparatus, to include engines, tower ladders, and heavy rescues.

    Based on input from the personnel assigned to these various rigs, we made the decision to stop putting IFS on the engines last year. The biggest complaints we got there the feeling that the rig was "floating" (especially when on the interstate), lack to ability to "feel" where the rigs were going through curves, and there was less ability anticipate weight shift and braking needs.

    However, we have elected to leave the IFS on the tower ladders and the heavy rescues. We've found that the heavier and/or longer wheelbase on the vehicle, the more or an advantage that the IFS is.

    Based on my full time employment, part time employment, and volunteer experience, I've driven close to 100 different apparatus from every manufacturer. I, personally, far prefer a straight axle on the front versus IFS.

    What are the reasons you all want IFS?
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    Outside of my own department, most of my experience with fire trucks is delivering them over the road. When I get into one, it's a pretty good bet that I'll be in it for 1,000 miles or more, much of that on interstate highways. So I don't get to experience them much in local roads, etc.

    In all that, I have driven one Spartan with IFS. It just happens that I got the same truck (a demo) twice and put nearly 2,500 miles on it altogether. The IFS was nicer, to be sure, but not $14,000 nicer.

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    Default Ifs

    Get a hold of your Spartan Regional (not the dealer) but the actual RSM for your area. At one time they had a form that showed the braking difference with IFS with Disc brakes and MFS with disc. The meritor with disc is far superior stopping than IFS. The reason why braking is better with a solid beam is due to less deflection in the suspension. Maintenance is far less expensive with the solid beam. Also watch out how manufacturers label their cramp angles, typically with IFS you end up with larger tires either 385 or 425 depending on manufacturer. Usually a 315 tire with an 18k axle will give you 48 degrees left 44 degrees right depending on the cab and chassis manufacturer. Also if you are concerned about turning radius you need to consider the following: Front bumper extension, cab overhang (centerline of axle to front of cab) and wheel base. I apologize for the dissertation, i have driven both, the solid beam is still the tried and true product.

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    You need to look at the bottom line for maintenance and repair costs, and the people doing it. Some of the old "salts" may not know how to correctly inspect the IFS, but are damn good with the I-beam. Some may need to be educated. Ride quality is slightly better with IFS compared to an I Beam, but that isn't a good gauge to go from one to another versus cost.

    Taking into account your street conditions, weather conditions, the IFS will get abused more, and fail more often, than an I-beam system. As for braking statistics, I don't think there is an advantage over one or the other. Spec your brakes accordingly.

    Personally, I don't see any reason to get an IFS, except for bragging rights, when all is said and done.


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    I'm siding with majority opinion on this one- solid axle.

    C6

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    The few IFS equipped trucks I have driven, you really couldn't tell the difference unless you drive over curbs a lot. Then the IFS was better. And if you drive over curbs a lot, you are going to have tire problems and shocks wear out quickly. The big 17" disc brakes on the solid axles stop as well as any. Solid axle the best choice in my opionion.

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    (insert knowing smile here)

    ....but if you don't spec (brand specific trademark) or IFS, you can't succesfully exclude other bidders!

    j/k. Couldn't resist.

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    The american heavy truck world moves on solid front axles. Tried and true, parts available many places, and cheaper.

    Difference in ride may be a factor for IFS, I can't comment.

    When looking at breaking distances READ THE FINE PRINT. I know of a major manufacture that has data to show much improved braking with IFS. In the fine print it states the tests were a solid axle with 15" discs vs IFS with 17" discs. Get a comparison with equal brakes installed for a real test.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

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    Default Counsel wants it!!

    Why does your council feel qualified to make this decision over the desires of the Fire department. My dept.'s newest engine has IFS and most prefer driving it over our older I-beam units. Try talking to a couple sales reps., I'm sure they'll get you any info you need to get the deal done.

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    Of course a sales rep will tell you IFS is better. It's more expensive , hence more profit in his pocket.

    In some applications IFS will improve ride & handling, in other types of terrain it will scare the bejesus out of you.
    If you are running on flat level roads that are all paved it's probably ok.
    if not stay away from it as you will never know what it's going to do next.

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    Well, so far, it looks like more FD's prefer the I-beam over the I.F.S.

    Doesn't sound like the OP is going to get the help he wants from here. Hope his Council does not see this thread!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    The I beam is going to cost you less over the long term ESPECIALLY if you keep the rig longer than 15 years. Less money up front and less to maintain.We looked briefly at IFS but opted for the I beam. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-10-2010 at 08:52 PM.

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    I will add my two cents. We have one rig with IFS the rest of them are I-Beam, out of a total fleet of 8 Type I pumps. Overwhemingly,at my department everyone favors the IFS, due to handling, braking, and overall performance. In regards to the IFS costing more, we have not had a single issue in the 30,000+ miles and going on three years of service. Being an Engineer that drives an I-Beam designed rig, i much prefer the IFS for the reasons listed above. Furthermore regarding the cost, the rig with IFS cost around $35,000 less (including a CAFS mind you) than our newest I-Beam rig with a delivery date of one year seperating them. If the IFS cost so much money to maintain, than i dont believe LA City would have such a large fleet of them. And yes i am talking Pierce here and no i dont drink the Kool Aid, just someone who has practical experience driving these two different platforms for a living. If your a volunteer department where maintenance funds are an issue than that is something to consider, but the bottom line is ours gets ran the hardest since it is at one of our busiest stations and we have had zero issues with it thus far. The only downside to the IFS that i have with them is that they do drive like a giant SUV and if you are not in tune with the rig, you will be driving faster than you should and could potentially find yourself in a situation you cant recover from. Regarding how the trucking world moves on I-Beam, well i would agree, but the military moves on IFS. And our IFS turns as well as our I-Beam rigs do, they both take a whole wopping two and a half lanes to pull off a U-turn. If i was the OP i find departments that operate what ever IFS system you guys want and ask them for the maintenace records regarding them. A salesman will sell you anything but talk to departments to get the real skinny!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ivswo View Post
    A salesman will sell you anything but talk to departments to get the real skinny!
    Yes, evidentially you should seek out and find those who will tell you what you want to hear, don't listen to the FD's represented here.

    We looked into IFS when speccing our Rescue-Pumper and one chief explained to us that he had grave concerns for his IFS rig as the drivers that lacked fulltime driving experience tended to over steer the unit as it "dove into corners". Similar stories everywhere, the IFS rides nice but reacts very differently and is far easier to "over drive". Given the increased costs and risks, we determined the ride to be a very minor issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ivswo View Post
    I will add my two cents. We have one rig with IFS the rest of them are I-Beam, out of a total fleet of 8 Type I pumps. Overwhemingly,at my department everyone favors the IFS, due to handling, braking, and overall performance. In regards to the IFS costing more, we have not had a single issue in the 30,000+ miles and going on three years of service. Being an Engineer that drives an I-Beam designed rig, i much prefer the IFS for the reasons listed above. Furthermore regarding the cost, the rig with IFS cost around $35,000 less (including a CAFS mind you) than our newest I-Beam rig with a delivery date of one year seperating them. If the IFS cost so much money to maintain, than i dont believe LA City would have such a large fleet of them. And yes i am talking Pierce here and no i dont drink the Kool Aid, just someone who has practical experience driving these two different platforms for a living. If your a volunteer department where maintenance funds are an issue than that is something to consider, but the bottom line is ours gets ran the hardest since it is at one of our busiest stations and we have had zero issues with it thus far. The only downside to the IFS that i have with them is that they do drive like a giant SUV and if you are not in tune with the rig, you will be driving faster than you should and could potentially find yourself in a situation you cant recover from. Regarding how the trucking world moves on I-Beam, well i would agree, but the military moves on IFS. And our IFS turns as well as our I-Beam rigs do, they both take a whole wopping two and a half lanes to pull off a U-turn. If i was the OP i find departments that operate what ever IFS system you guys want and ask them for the maintenace records regarding them. A salesman will sell you anything but talk to departments to get the real skinny!
    Question ONE: Do your I beam rigs have the IDENTICAL Braking system to the IFS? If NOT,you are comparing Grapes and pears
    Question two: Do you believe a system with twice as many moving parts is going to be a BETTER long term value than one with half as many?
    Just because the military uses something does NOT,in itself,mean it is the best system for the rest of us. You may have noticed you are a bit outnumbered in your opinion. And WHERE you operate the vehicle can have a great deal to do with whether or not an IFS axle will work well for you. VERY nice in SoCal,not so much so in the Northern woods of Maine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ivswo View Post
    I will add my two cents. We have one rig with IFS the rest of them are I-Beam, out of a total fleet of 8 Type I pumps. Overwhemingly,at my department everyone favors the IFS, due to handling, braking, and overall performance. In regards to the IFS costing more, we have not had a single issue in the 30,000+ miles and going on three years of service. Being an Engineer that drives an I-Beam designed rig, i much prefer the IFS for the reasons listed above. Furthermore regarding the cost, the rig with IFS cost around $35,000 less (including a CAFS mind you) than our newest I-Beam rig with a delivery date of one year seperating them. If the IFS cost so much money to maintain, than i dont believe LA City would have such a large fleet of them. And yes i am talking Pierce here and no i dont drink the Kool Aid, just someone who has practical experience driving these two different platforms for a living. If your a volunteer department where maintenance funds are an issue than that is something to consider, but the bottom line is ours gets ran the hardest since it is at one of our busiest stations and we have had zero issues with it thus far. The only downside to the IFS that i have with them is that they do drive like a giant SUV and if you are not in tune with the rig, you will be driving faster than you should and could potentially find yourself in a situation you cant recover from. Regarding how the trucking world moves on I-Beam, well i would agree, but the military moves on IFS. And our IFS turns as well as our I-Beam rigs do, they both take a whole wopping two and a half lanes to pull off a U-turn. If i was the OP i find departments that operate what ever IFS system you guys want and ask them for the maintenace records regarding them. A salesman will sell you anything but talk to departments to get the real skinny!
    I couldn't agree more. Many of you say don't drink the Kool Aid, but you seem to yourself be victims of brand preference buy eliminating one or two manufacturers at any cost.

    Of coarse IFS sytems are better and I seriously doubt that they cost anymore to maintain. A department where I volunteered spec'ed an Arrow XT with the 17" disc brakes and IFS. Prior to doing so, we called the LAFD maintenance shop and spoke with the Manager. He told me that they had rigs with +/- 60,000 miles that had no component maitenance costs and several had not even required brake jobs at that mileage. There have been no issues with the XT that we purchased.

    Since then, the Memphis Fire Department went with Pierce Arrow XT's as well after not buying a Pierce in over 15 years. There are currently 9 engines and a truck here on XT chassis and everyone that have driven or ridden in them thinks they are a dream.

    Don't have a feel for the road?? BS.....they are different for sure. Get it out and drive it and become familiar with your equipment.
    RK
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    BUT do they brake any better than a I Beam with identical brakes? And YES, there ARE more moving parts. You do the math but sooner or later EVERY rig needs some front end work. Isn't going to change my paycheck no matter which one you buy. But I've "hossed" a lot of trucks over the years and I'm NOT buying the "IFS stops significantly better" line on rigs with EQUAL brake systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    BUT do they brake any better than a I Beam with identical brakes? And YES, there ARE more moving parts. You do the math but sooner or later EVERY rig needs some front end work. Isn't going to change my paycheck no matter which one you buy. But I've "hossed" a lot of trucks over the years and I'm NOT buying the "IFS stops significantly better" line on rigs with EQUAL brake systems.
    I am not going to speak for you, but I am clearly no mechanic. I occasionally do however use deductive reasoning:

    I know that disc brakes compared to equally sized drum braking systems work better on cars and regular passenger trucks.

    I do not think there is a significant cost difference between maintaining disc brakes or drum brakes on regular vehicles.

    I know that larger trucks spec'ed by the military use IFS.

    Ultimately it doesn't matter to me either. The engine I ride in the City has the single I beam.

    My main point is this: Currently Pierce is the only manufacturer that offers IFS and 4 wheel disc brakes. There may be others, but they were the first. It appears that many of the folks in here are coming up with lame excuses because they don't like Pierce.

    Having ridden in both, the IFS definately rides better. Does is stop better when compared to equal brake systems with I-beam - no idea, BUT see my powers of deductive reasoning above.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Loo,

    TC (Rescue101) wasn't making a reference to disc versus drum when he mentioned equal braking systems.

    When the IFS first hit the market from Pierce, one the sales points was the improved braking distance. This was based on the 17" disc brakes that the system had, versus the 15" that everyone else was using the I-beam suspension. Fast forward to present day, and 17" brakes can be found on both IFS and I-Beam, so it somewhat nullifies the "shorter braking distance" argument.

    As for the cost factor, I can attest to the increased cost on brake system repairs we have on the IFS rigs at work. I work closely with the folks in the shop, and they remind me of this often.

    Pierce may have been the first to offer IFS in the fire apparatus market, but they certainly aren't exclusive to IFS with 4-wheel disc brakes. Hell, I've got 4-wheel disc brakes on the 1990 HME/Grumman at the VFD. Currently, Pierce, Spartan, Ferrara, and E-One are offering IFS on their rigs, with your choice of rear brakes.

    Finally, since the department I work for has Pierce as 31 of the 38 front-line fire suppression rigs, our member's opinion isn't anti-Pierce. They build a fine product, as do many other manufacturers. We've just found that our members prefer the "feel" and "responsiveness" of an I-beam. I won't argue that it rides better, but it's not always about the ride.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I am not going to speak for you, but I am clearly no mechanic. I occasionally do however use deductive reasoning:

    I know that disc brakes compared to equally sized drum braking systems work better on cars and regular passenger trucks.

    I do not think there is a significant cost difference between maintaining disc brakes or drum brakes on regular vehicles.

    I know that larger trucks spec'ed by the military use IFS.

    Ultimately it doesn't matter to me either. The engine I ride in the City has the single I beam.

    My main point is this: Currently Pierce is the only manufacturer that offers IFS and 4 wheel disc brakes. There may be others, but they were the first. It appears that many of the folks in here are coming up with lame excuses because they don't like Pierce.

    Having ridden in both, the IFS definately rides better. Does is stop better when compared to equal brake systems with I-beam - no idea, BUT see my powers of deductive reasoning above.
    The question to ask is why does the military use IFS? The answer is because their equipment is designed to run offroad, over rough terrain, much like our ARFF trucks that have four wheel independent suspension. Your average fire apparatus will rarely leave the pavement, and almost never get out in the rough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I couldn't agree more. Many of you say don't drink the Kool Aid, but you seem to yourself be victims of brand preference buy eliminating one or two manufacturers at any cost.

    Of coarse IFS sytems are better and I seriously doubt that they cost anymore to maintain. A department where I volunteered spec'ed an Arrow XT with the 17" disc brakes and IFS. Prior to doing so, we called the LAFD maintenance shop and spoke with the Manager. He told me that they had rigs with +/- 60,000 miles that had no component maitenance costs and several had not even required brake jobs at that mileage. There have been no issues with the XT that we purchased.

    Since then, the Memphis Fire Department went with Pierce Arrow XT's as well after not buying a Pierce in over 15 years. There are currently 9 engines and a truck here on XT chassis and everyone that have driven or ridden in them thinks they are a dream.

    Don't have a feel for the road?? BS.....they are different for sure. Get it out and drive it and become familiar with your equipment.
    My department had Spartan E-Ones and KME's for the better part of 2 decades. The Spartans (2 of them ) drove exceptionaly nice and were circa 1986. Our KME's were from 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2005. Finally after years of problems with the newer fleet, we set out to look for a more reliable and better built vehicle. Numerous members of our department work at part-time departments with a wide range of manufacturer vehicles present. Our vehicle committee looked at E-One, Crimson, Custom Fire, HME Ahrens -Fox, Smeal, Sutphen and Pierce. After all was said and done we chose Pierce. No they were not high bid, and they were not low bid. But one of the main factors was ride and driveability from our engineers. Our Full Time Engineers fell in love with the ride, steering and braking distance. The ease of the turning radius was also a huge hit. And just for the record, Yes we also asked to get a Spartan IFS Demo to our station for an apples to apples comparison. Unfortunately, that never happened. Since switching to Pierce with the IFS we have actually had less issues with front suspension, steering and braking problems than we did with our previous manufacturers. All in all, the department, the engineers and the line staff love the new rigs. As an officer, I dont feel like my man hood is jolted and pushed through my spine every time we hit a pot-hole or bump in the street. Also the increased manuverabilty is fantastic, we are able to get into courts and culde-sacs alot easier with the tighter cramp angles of the newer IFS rigs.

    I feel that our membership and especially our Engineers are well educated in our apparatus and that of whats available in the industry. At the end of the day, they chose Pierce, Not because its "GRAPE FLAVORED KOOL-AIDE", but because they felt it was the best apparatus for our department. It seems all too evident that there are individuals on this forum who are salesmen or brand loyalist who will do anything to dis-credit Pierce. It truly is a shame, Pierce builds a nice product, as do many other manufacturers. Dont air out your personal grudge just because you lost a contract or your bid was rejected.Check your feelings at the door.

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