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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Default International starting problems

    I have a 2007 International 4400 commercial cab KME. I love the engine.

    However, it has a starting issue. Sometimes it will start fine, but
    increasingly one needs to hold the ignition switch into the start position,
    and jump the two large terminals on the starter solenoid on the starter.

    As soon as you tap the contacts, the solenoid pulls in, and cranks the truck,
    you don't need to hold the screwdriver across the contacts till it starts.

    Once it starts it is fine. When you turn the switch into the start position, it
    activates all the normal engine lights, buzzers etc that normally activate when
    turning it to start.

    Solenoid?

    I just want to make sure before we replace that beast - not only is it tough to get
    to, it is I am sure expensive. With only a yearly budget to run the entire department of
    $6,500.00 I can't afford much.


  2. #2
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    From the sound of it, it sounds like the solenoid has taken a dump on you. If you are able to start it by crossing the two fields, and it starts, then the starter its self is fine. Replace the solenoid.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  3. #3
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I have a 2007 International 4400 commercial cab KME. I love the engine.

    However, it has a starting issue. Sometimes it will start fine, but
    increasingly one needs to hold the ignition switch into the start position,
    and jump the two large terminals on the starter solenoid on the starter.

    As soon as you tap the contacts, the solenoid pulls in, and cranks the truck,
    you don't need to hold the screwdriver across the contacts till it starts.

    Once it starts it is fine. When you turn the switch into the start position, it
    activates all the normal engine lights, buzzers etc that normally activate when
    turning it to start.

    Solenoid?

    I just want to make sure before we replace that beast - not only is it tough to get
    to, it is I am sure expensive. With only a yearly budget to run the entire department of
    $6,500.00 I can't afford much.


    Do you have an IH Dealer near you? Contact them about this. There may be a recall on it!!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  4. #4
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    Talking

    LV: I'll take a guess that you've already pulled the cables off and cleaned all the connections.
    If not try that first. a little corrosion can cause an intermittent issue as you describe. If not the solenoid probably has a small crack in the coil causing an intermittent fault that can be "shocked "into working by jumping the terminals. Solenoid shouldn't be too expensive for that starter.

    Where's TC when you need him. He's the king of cornbinders.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Where's TC when you need him. He's the king of cornbinders.
    Out working on a hay baler or a light bulb.

  6. #6
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Out working on a hay baler or a light bulb.
    YOU RANG? Check(and CLEAN)all connections. Do voltage drop testing across ALL related connections INCLUDING Grounds and junction blocks. See a few junction block problems,TONS of connection problems and a FEW solenoid problems. Get a push button mechanics starter bypass(pushbutton with two wires and two alligator clips). If it CONSISTANTLY operates correctly with the bypass,I'd be looking at the Ign switch to solenoid initiate circuit. T.C.

  7. #7
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Another words, put a test light on the small wire going to the solenoid and see if it lights up when you try to start it. If it does, then check the voltage to that same wire. If it is 12.5v or more, then it is not in the ignition circuit.

    Replace solenoid.

    If you don't get any power at the small wire, then you'll need to back trace the small wire to your starter switch, and then your ignition switch.


    FM1
    Last edited by FIREMECH1; 09-18-2010 at 03:11 AM. Reason: For Clarity
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks, will advise...

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Soo.. here I sit with a mechanics remote starter switch hooked up to the solenoid, wire tied under the hood. Got a run with that engine, you clip the other end of the switch to the 12 VDC stud, turn the ign switch to run, and hit the remote starter switch. Unhook, and go on the call.

    It is an intermittent issue. The ign switch always has 13 volts at all contacts when in the start position, but it is not making it to the solenoid.

    I live with 12 volt wiring. My installers do LOTS of police package upfitting. This wiring harness on this international scares me. Very hard to trace.

    Just as an aside - if you hold the ign switch to start, then apply power, the truck starts
    to turn over, then the starter quickly stops and it goes through the normal startup.

    Tomorrow will be another day of trying to trace. Sure wish I had a wiring diagram. What fun.

  10. #10
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Have you used a volt meter to check that you are in fact getting at least 12.5 volts to the small wire that energizes the solenoid???

    Don't use a test light. It will light up with voltage down to 6 volts.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Have you used a volt meter to check that you are in fact getting at least 12.5 volts to the small wire that energizes the solenoid???

    Don't use a test light. It will light up with voltage down to 6 volts.

    FM1
    Nothing at the solenoid on the small wire. Remember, this is intermittent. I am guessing it is going to be in a connector somewhere between the ignition switch and the solenoid, but tracing it is a real pain. So many looms, so many connectors. Is the neutral safety switch in that circuit, or before? Are there other safety switches that might affect it?

  12. #12
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    if you can find the GSO # for the truck KME should be able to get you the "plans" for that apparatus.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
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  13. #13
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Soo.. here I sit with a mechanics remote starter switch hooked up to the solenoid, wire tied under the hood. Got a run with that engine, you clip the other end of the switch to the 12 VDC stud, turn the ign switch to run, and hit the remote starter switch. Unhook, and go on the call.

    It is an intermittent issue. The ign switch always has 13 volts at all contacts when in the start position, but it is not making it to the solenoid.

    I live with 12 volt wiring. My installers do LOTS of police package upfitting. This wiring harness on this international scares me. Very hard to trace.

    Just as an aside - if you hold the ign switch to start, then apply power, the truck starts
    to turn over, then the starter quickly stopsand it goes through the normal startup.

    Tomorrow will be another day of trying to trace. Sure wish I had a wiring diagram. What fun.
    As I mentioned earlier check the junction block where the connections pass thru the Firewall. Ints have been KNOWN to have trouble here. As FM indicates,check the initiate wire with a DVOM, NOT a test light. A test light is OK for the quick test but you need a VOLTMETER to see what is REALLY going on. T.C,

  14. #14
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Nothing at the solenoid on the small wire. Remember, this is intermittent. I am guessing it is going to be in a connector somewhere between the ignition switch and the solenoid, but tracing it is a real pain. So many looms, so many connectors. Is the neutral safety switch in that circuit, or before? Are there other safety switches that might affect it?
    If it gets TOO hard,put a push button in the dash,one side HOT with key ON and wire the other side of the push button to the small wire on the starter. Viola! Problem solved. T.c.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1 View Post
    if you can find the GSO # for the truck KME should be able to get you the "plans" for that apparatus.
    I have the as built plans - but they don't say much about the chassis electrical. If anything. That is all International, and those plans are a bit more trouble to get.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    As I mentioned earlier check the junction block where the connections pass thru the Firewall. Ints have been KNOWN to have trouble here. As FM indicates,check the initiate wire with a DVOM, NOT a test light. A test light is OK for the quick test but you need a VOLTMETER to see what is REALLY going on. T.C,
    Yep, we are using a VOM. If I knew what block it was on the firewall, I would more
    than likely be able to check the wiring fairly easy.

    I figure if it goes on too much more I will tag to the ign switch and just run my own
    wire to the solenoid, bypassing the factory wire. I just hate to do that, and suspect if
    there is a connector giving me issues somewhere, it will end up giving me further issues down the road.

  17. #17
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    OK, we've seemed to have ruled out that it isn't a solenoid problem. So lets try this.

    I've only had to do it a couple times for verification of similar problems for different sources, but if you are able, do try this.

    Get a cheap pigtail for a 194/168 bulb. Run a wire off your starter button that sends power to the solenoid and connect it to one wire off the pigtail. Run the other one to a good ground. Make sure you place the bulb/pigtail so you can easily see it.

    What we are trying to do, is see if the starter button isn't the problem. Everytime you try to start the rig, the light should light up. If it lights up and doesn't start, then there's a problem from the start button to the solenoid. If it doesn't light up while trying to start, the problem is in your starter button.

    I'm shooting in the dark here because I don't know how your rig is set up and wired. You can also use the above to find out if there is a problem with your ignition switch.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    OK, we've seemed to have ruled out that it isn't a solenoid problem. So lets try this.

    I've only had to do it a couple times for verification of similar problems for different sources, but if you are able, do try this.

    Get a cheap pigtail for a 194/168 bulb. Run a wire off your starter button that sends power to the solenoid and connect it to one wire off the pigtail. Run the other one to a good ground. Make sure you place the bulb/pigtail so you can easily see it.

    What we are trying to do, is see if the starter button isn't the problem. Everytime you try to start the rig, the light should light up. If it lights up and doesn't start, then there's a problem from the start button to the solenoid. If it doesn't light up while trying to start, the problem is in your starter button.

    I'm shooting in the dark here because I don't know how your rig is set up and wired. You can also use the above to find out if there is a problem with your ignition switch.

    FM1
    I have 13 VDC at the ign switch on all contacts when it is in the start position.

    I do NOT have 13VDC at the solenoid.

    I want to check the wiring, connector blocks, etc between the two, but am having
    great difficulty chasing those wires. I thought about just clipping the wire coming off the ign switch, and running a wire to the solenoid, but am concerned about any safety switches I might bypass?

  19. #19
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I have 13 VDC at the ign switch on all contacts when it is in the start position.

    I do NOT have 13VDC at the solenoid.

    I want to check the wiring, connector blocks, etc between the two, but am having
    great difficulty chasing those wires. I thought about just clipping the wire coming off the ign switch, and running a wire to the solenoid, but am concerned about any safety switches I might bypass?
    Key switch,START wire. Color code SHOULD stay constant to junction block then to starter. Check for power on BOTH sides of the JB,Int has been KNOWN to have trouble here. T.C,

  20. #20
    Forum Member joemac356's Avatar
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    When faced with the condition: no-start, try wiggling the gear selector whilst engaging the starter switch and see if the starter engages, which will tell you that it is a neutral safety switch problem. Sometimes, there can be corrosion on the neutral switch contacts. Factory-installed dielectric grease on the contacts can cause the accumulation of all manner of debris that can cause connection woes.
    Also, run a jumper cable from a known-to-be-good ground to the starter housing to identify any grounding problems with the starter, but it sounds like your issue is with the lack of battery voltage at the solenoid. I'd be more inclined to think yours is going to be an intermittent voltage supply problem.

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