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    Default Origin of the 5 mile rule on fire station placement

    Was talking with a Chief the other day the topic of the ISO 5 mile rule in rural fire station placment. Does anyone know its origin?

    Harv, Paladin Knight and any of the older guys this question is for you!
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    How far a team at gallop can pull a steamer before they keel over?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    How far a team at gallop can pull a steamer before they keel over?
    Man that was quick....

    But you have to admit it is kinda strange to use as a measuring stick for ability to provide service in the event of 1000 gallon pumpers and what not tha we have today. with over 24 yrs in the service I had not really give that much thought to the 5 mile rule and where it actually came from.
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    I was talking about fire station spacing with my son a while back - he indicated that in his area the spacing is closer to 9 miles.

    Around here it's more like 7 or so, and that's based more on where population centers are located than any specific planning.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    What "5 mile rule" are you referring to?

    The last time I looked ISO wanted the first due engine within 1.5 miles (3.2 minutes of travel time at the standard 35 mph estimate) and 2.5 miles for the nearest truck company.

    For comparison, NFPA 1710 allows a more generous 4 minute travel time for the first due company and 8 minutes for a full assignment.
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    In the rural setting there is a 5 mile rural that insurance companies use to base policy charges on. If a dept has the required equipment and can do a tak list (pumping, water supple, etc) here it goes from a protection class 10 (the worst) to a class 9. If you have a hydrant within 1000 ft of your home adds to the class. For instance a 9/7 means there is a fire department within 5 miles and there is a hydrant within 100 ft. Improved water, equipment, pre-planning, dispatch, training (and facilities) all add up to improve the ISO rating and therefore drop the class listing. Anyone outside the 5 miles is out of luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    In the rural setting there is a 5 mile rural that insurance companies use to base policy charges on. If a dept has the required equipment and can do a tak list (pumping, water supple, etc) here it goes from a protection class 10 (the worst) to a class 9. If you have a hydrant within 1000 ft of your home adds to the class. For instance a 9/7 means there is a fire department within 5 miles and there is a hydrant within 100 ft. Improved water, equipment, pre-planning, dispatch, training (and facilities) all add up to improve the ISO rating and therefore drop the class listing. Anyone outside the 5 miles is out of luck.
    NOT EXACTLY. Outside of 5 mi you PAY more. Depending on area,equipment,water sources and dispatch your results MAY vary.Nee as long as you have a Dept within 10 miles you're a 9. T.c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    NOT EXACTLY. Outside of 5 mi you PAY more. Depending on area,equipment,water sources and dispatch your results MAY vary.Nee as long as you have a Dept within 10 miles you're a 9. T.c.
    In Ky it is 5 miles. Anything greater than 5 you are a 10. we have areas in my own county like most in initially setting up the department they used the community location to set up when you look at the 5 mile deal there are some stations that have anywhere from a 1/2 mile to a 1.5 mile gap.

    COpied from the following site:

    http://www.isopropertyresources.com/...pril-2005.html


    CLASSIFICATION OF PUBLIC FIRE PROTECTION (PPC)

    For jurisdictions listed with a single classification number, all properties within the jurisdiction should receive the listed classification number.
    For jurisdictions listed with multiple classification numbers (e.g., 6/9), known as a "split classification," the classification number applicable to individual properties is determined as follows:
    Split classification shown as "X/9" or "X/8B" (e.g., 6/9 or 6/8B):
    For properties located five road miles or less from a responding fire station of a designated recognized fire department indicated in the listing for the jurisdiction, and within 1,000 feet of a fire hydrant, the first listed classification number applies (e.g., 6/9, use Class 6).
    For properties located five road miles or less from a responding fire station of a designated recognized fire department indicated in the listing for the jurisdiction, and with a fire hydrant more than 1,000 feet, Class 9 or Class 8B applies.
    For properties not qualifying as listed above, Class 10 applies.
    Split classifications displayed as "X/10" where no hydrants are installed (e.g., 9/10) or where hydrant distance does not apply due to an alternate creditable water supply (e.g., 7/10):
    For properties located within five road miles or less (unless otherwise indicated in the footnote) from a responding fire station of a designated recognized fire department indicated in the listing for the jurisdiction, the first listed classification applies (e.g., 7/10, use Class 7).
    For properties not qualifying as listed above, Class 10 applies.
    For jurisdictions or areas not listed, Class 10 applies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    In Ky it is 5 miles. For properties located five road miles or less from a responding fire station of a designated recognized fire department indicated in the listing for the jurisdiction, and with a fire hydrant more than 1,000 feet, Class 9 or Class 8B applies.

    As I read This, If you are within 5 miles of a Fire Station you get a 9...... Even though your nearest Hydrant is in New Jersey........
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    As I read This, If you are within 5 miles of a Fire Station you get a 9...... Even though your nearest Hydrant is in New Jersey........
    Totally correct. Those of us that wonder what that mystical "hydrant" is are still able to drop our ISO with water shuttle however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    NOT EXACTLY. Outside of 5 mi you PAY more. Depending on area,equipment,water sources and dispatch your results MAY vary.Nee as long as you have a Dept within 10 miles you're a 9. T.c.
    I am going to climb out on a limb and say in most states it is 5 miles, over 5 miles you go to a 10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I am going to climb out on a limb and say in most states it is 5 miles, over 5 miles you go to a 10.
    What I copied above was the first thing I found on the ISO site that stated 5 miles or less, hydrant credits and what not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    What I copied above was the first thing I found on the ISO site that stated 5 miles or less, hydrant credits and what not.
    Yep, but some states have an impact - such as the Western states 8 rating, or states like TX that mandate ISO credit for CAFS.

    Hopefully that credit for CAFS will be nationwide soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    As I read This, If you are within 5 miles of a Fire Station you get a 9...... Even though your nearest Hydrant is in New Jersey........
    I could see that, with the way houses are built now. Most places if your hydrants are way out, your FD will have 1000+ gal tanks on the engines. If they can't stop it with that, dont matter how far away a plug is, that house is getting torn down and rebuilt.

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    nice... I'm a 9 throughout but I bring to the party: 3000' 4"LDH, 1,000 / 1,000 pumper, 1,250 / 1,000 pumper and a 1,500 water tender on the first assignment. If I have something, I'm calling my mutual aid tankers; 1,5000, 2,000, 3,000 and 5,000 gallons. We don't have hydrants, we're completly rural (with a total fire district of 10 square miles; no stoplights and a total of 6 stop signs!) with cisterns, ponds, creeks and the Hudson river as water sources...

    Gotta work on upping my rating someday...

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    I dont buy into the hydrant theory. I have been to a fire with green top hydrants around the block and we set up drafting sites in a nearby river,as to not put a undue strain on the small water system and still managed to wash off the foundation at the the end of the day. I have put fires out with less then a 1000 gallons with 8-12 min responce time ( volly) with no hydrants for miles. Around here we had two fire stations burn up with hydrants next to them this past year with them being staffed. Hmmm seams like there are more factors then location location location

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic190 View Post
    nice... I'm a 9 throughout but I bring to the party: 3000' 4"LDH, 1,000 / 1,000 pumper, 1,250 / 1,000 pumper and a 1,500 water tender on the first assignment. If I have something, I'm calling my mutual aid tankers; 1,5000, 2,000, 3,000 and 5,000 gallons. We don't have hydrants, we're completly rural (with a total fire district of 10 square miles; no stoplights and a total of 6 stop signs!) with cisterns, ponds, creeks and the Hudson river as water sources...

    Gotta work on upping my rating someday...
    Why wait for someday?

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    Point to remember here.... the 5 miles is by road, not as the crow flys... or in ISO language, "As hose can be laid"

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic190 View Post
    nice... If I have something, I'm calling my mutual aid tankers; 1,5000, 2,000, 3,000 and........

    Could you post a Photo of that 15000 Gallon Tanker Please??..... Inquiring minds want to know..............


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    Quote Originally Posted by Seagravesstick View Post
    Point to remember here.... the 5 miles is by road, not as the crow flys... or in ISO language, "As hose can be laid"

    So, You haven't seen my Hose Laying Helicopter???...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Could you post a Photo of that 15000 Gallon Tanker Please??..... Inquiring minds want to know..............


    CRAP!!! typo. Unless I claim to have missed the decimal point! Sorry. However, I have seen a few retired tractor drawn MC306's in this State...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Could you post a Photo of that 15000 Gallon Tanker Please??..... Inquiring minds want to know..............


    Hehe. there ya go!
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    Was talking with a Chief the other day the topic of the ISO 5 mile rule in rural fire station placment. Does anyone know its origin?

    Harv, Paladin Knight and any of the older guys this question is for you!
    I don't know how I missed this direct question to me.

    ISO evaluates Station Placement based on the road mile distance from structures. For Engine Companies the distance is 1.5 mile. Service/Ladder Companies is 2.5 miles.

    If you look at the 1.5 miles distance for an Engine Company, the criteria is arriving with an Engine Company with 4 FF within 4 minutes, 90% of the time.

    The 5 Mile distance is arbitrary since that would indicate the arrival of an Engine Company in about 10 to 12 minutes. We all know the amount of damage that usually occurs in ten minutes if the fire is unchecked.

    But ISO computes other factors as well, especially for volunteer depts. The dept usually gets about 1/3 credit for each volunteer on the roster, so it takes 3 volunteers to carry the same value a one full-time FF. They compute delays for call handling, decision making and assembly of personnel.

    So while the Engine Company is credited for being within 1.5 miles of a percentage of structures, the 5 mile road mile distance is based on the water capability of the dept. Hydrants help overcome this distance if they exist in within 1000 feet of the structures. Since most rural depts don't have hydrants, this damages the Water Capability Score.

    Alternative Water Supplies (Tankers) may be credited if the dept can demonstrate the capability to provide water to the fireground. ISO currently requires 250gpm for a 120 minutes just to carry the Class 8.

    If you are planning to attempt Class 8, then this is what you're up against.

    The distance of water supplies from structures. ISO will use an average distance.

    What is the water supply and how does the dept utilize it to provide water.

    Just for an example, lets look at the following:

    Anywhere Fire Dept
    Station: 1, located about 1.5 miles from 25% of the structures.
    Fleet: 2 1250gpm Engines/ 4 2500 gallon Tankers/1 Service-Utility Truck with no pump or water.
    Roster Strength: 45 Firefighters - avg 100 hrs of training annually

    FIRE DEPT: ISO evaluates your dept based on the following criteria to establish the Fire Dept points.

    Engine Companies: This analyzes the equipment on your Engines. There are 10 points here. if you have more than 1 Engine, then an average is derived. This is where you should gain at least 3 to 5 points if your engine is 30% to 50% complete as to the equipment requirements.

    Pump Capacity: based on the total pumping capability compared to the Needed Fire Flow in your district. If your NFF is 2000gpm and you have 2 Engines that are rated at 1000gpm, you will get all 5 points.

    Service/Ladders: 5 points possible and you should acquire some of them even if you do not have a Ladder truck. You can claim Combined Service Apparatus on a truck that carries some of the required equipment for a Service; SCBAs, Ladders, Generator, etc... (See the Service Equipment List). I have seen depts get around 3 of these points by combining Service Equipment on Engines.

    Since Reserve Apparatus only totals 2 points I will skip this section since most volunteer depts don't have reserve units.

    Distribution of Companies: Station is 1.5 miles from P% of the structures. This reflects the percentage of coverage by this station. If most of the structures are further than 1.5 miles, then your points will be light. There are 4 points total in this catagory. This is not the point killer you must be concerned with, but every point is critical. Expect less than 1 point if most structures are beyond 1.5 miles.

    Company Personnel: determined by the average number of FF you can show on your reports. There are 15 points total that can be given, but most volunteer depts will not acquire more than 4, so you are already behind the curve here. A good average is 14-15. But you will only get about 5 points here. Remember, you get about 1/3 credit for each volunteer, so the larger the roster, the better. The higher the average during structure fires, the better.

    Training: 9 points are possible but this also is based on Pre-plan inspections in your district. You should be able to have all of your FF trained easily and get around 3 points.

    Lets total these points:

    Engine Companies:= 3
    Pump Capacity: = 5
    Service/Ladders: = 3
    Distribution of Companies: = 1
    Company Personnel: = 5
    Training: = 3

    Total = 20 out of Possible 50 = 40%

    It looks like the Fire Dept should be rated at Class 6, but this is only part of the survey. But at least we now can try to get the Water Score as close as possible to the Class 6.

    Water Supply: ISO evaluates the water supply, whether it is hydrants or static sources. It is based on the following Criteria:

    Water System: What type of the system is in use? Hydrants or static sources. Rural Volunteer depts usually use creeks, ponds or other sources where they must draft to refill tankers. This grades your capability, based on refill times, dump or offload times, and distance. You have little control on what ISO uses for travel time and must focus on refill and offload times. Tanker capacity also plays a huge factor here.

    Example: 2500 gallon tanker refilled with a Water Supply Engine at 1000 gpm should take about 2.5 minutes to fill. But you must include tanker maneuvering and hose connections as well. So you should add about 30 seconds to this time. How are you filling the tanker. If the Operator must pull a prime each time a tanker is to be refilled, he will not average 1000 gpm on the refill. If the operator maintains 1000 gpm by using two lines, one for tankers and one for water returned to the water supply, he can change the flow by turning two valves and make idle adjustments in the process to maintain gpm. This is preferred, but requires a very good pump man.

    If the tanker must travel 2 miles, then you have about 4 minutes of travel each way, to the fireground and back to refill, totaling 8 minutes of travel.

    At the fireground the tanker must maneuver and off load its load. This is usually by way of a dump valve into a porta-pond. After the tanker is empty, it returns to the refill location. So lets assume we can dump the load in about 1.5 minutes, but this would be extremely quick and would require a very good valve. I have seen very few that can do this, but I have seen a few tankers that can dump 2500 gallons within 1 minute. The faster, the better. But we still have to add the time to maneuver into place, and move off the dump site. I will use 2 minutes here.

    The number of tankers used is very important in this system. To maximize points, one tanker will not get you where you need to be. You must have at least two, three is better.

    Based on the Tanker times above, we see the Tanker Dump to Refill roundtrip is as follows:
    Refill = 3 minutes
    Travel = 8 minutes
    Dump = 2 minutes


    Total is about 13 minutes. Because it takes about 3 minutes to refill a tanker, then we can focus on the Tanker Times compared to the refill time.

    13 minutes / 3 minutes = 4.333 which is the number of tankers we should use.

    If we use 4 tankers, one should arrive to dump about every 3.25 minutes (13/4 = 3.25).


    Now we can estimate the total capability of your fireground engine based on 4 tankers carrying 2500 gallons each. This is called Egpm (Engine gallons per minute).

    We will dump 90% of 2500 gallons every 3.25 minutes, or 2250 gallons. It must last 3.25 minutes.

    2250 / 3.25 = 692 gpm --> This is what your Engine should be able to maintain.

    Now lets compute the Tgpm (Tanker gallons per minute)

    692gpm / 4 tankers = 173 Tgpm ----> Each Tanker is providing about 173 gallons per minute to the fireground engine.

    Now we have a number to compare against the Needed Fire Flow.

    A house does not require as much gpm as a Commercial Building. Your NFF is based on your highest flow requirements. ISO looks at the NFF for each area or level of exposure. So you might have a NFF of 500 in one area compared to NFF of 2000 in another. They calculate the dept capability based on a percentage of the exposures locations.

    There are 35 points in this criteria, and you must get all you can, or your Water Supply Score will kill your overall points.

    Just for this example, lets say this dept has been scored at 12 points for their capability.

    There are 2 other catagories in the Water Supply Score:

    Credit for Hydrants (2 points)
    Credit for Inspection and Condition of Hydrants. (3 points)

    If you don't have hydrants, you won't get much here. But you may get points for how you inspect your static water sources...

    Do they have the 50-year drought certificate?
    Can you access them year round?

    For this example this dept was awarded 3 point for these two criteria, (yes it is possible).

    So now we can total the Water Supply Score:

    Water System: = 12
    Other Points = 3

    Total 15 points out of 40 points possible = 37.5%

    Based on the ISO Chart, the Water Supply is a Class 7.


    ----------------------------

    Assuming your 911 system or call handling is pretty good, you should get easily 6 points or Class 4. Since you have little that you can control here, it isn't valued as highly as the other Criteria. But it is important in the final score.


    ____________________________________

    Now lets see where this department rates.

    Call Handling = 6 of 10 points = 60%
    Fire Dept = 20 of 50 points = 40%
    Water Supply = 15 of 40 points = 37.5%


    Total Points = 41 out of 100 points -> which on the surface looks like Class 6


    But ISO calculates a number called Divergence. This is the direct ratio based on the Water Capability as comapred to the Fire Dept Score. In this case, they are very close so Divergence is around .5 point

    Divergence = -.5

    Total Points = 40.5 out of 100 or 40.5%. This department is a Class 6.
    __________________________________________________ ___________

    I cannot claim that any of these numbers are based on an actual dept and their capabilities. But I have tried to illustrate what must be done to effectively change your Classification.

    If your can honestly grade yourself based on the criteria, then you will be ahead of the game. You must be able to analyze your weaknesses.

    If you don't have the capability of the above Water Score, then you might still get to a Class 8 with 2 tankers, but your fireground engine will have only an Egpm of just over 300 gpm. This is based on the tankers arrival times and how long the engine must make the water last between dumps. Compared to the distances and NFF you might do better or worse.

    A final word about Water Supply: This single catagory will either make you or break you. So you must focus a lot of your energy on your capability. If you cannot provide water, the other scores will not overcome the lack of water on the fireground. The difference of losing 30 to 40 points while still acquiring 80 on the Fire Dept score will not make you an 8, the divergence factor will absolutely kill you. But I have seen depts with marginal water supplies still pull in 7s or 8s in the final scoring. It is important to understand how Water impacts your overall score.

    I hope this helps just a bit.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Cool Dc-10

    Good post zackman, I was gonna post a pic of the DC-10...

    Wow, I hope my Chief doesn't see this... He'll want to put hose on our Air Ambulance... LOL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Good post zackman, I was gonna post a pic of the DC-10...

    Wow, I hope my Chief doesn't see this... He'll want to put hose on our Air Ambulance... LOL.


    I figured somebody would post the DC 10....

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