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  1. #21
    Forum Member IronsMan53's Avatar
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    JJR, you go ahead and call it a St Florian's cross. Good for you.

    I, along with everyone here and in the fire service, will continue to call it a Maltese cross.

    Have a nice day.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com


  2. #22
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    so I presented it in case anyone was.
    You made an unsubstantiated statement. That's not "presenting a case;" it's repeating a disconnected piece of trivia.

    But being told I'm wrong
    Nobody said you were wrong. It was just pointed out that you were only partly right. The cross of St. Florian is a form of Maltese cross. Cope.

    with no real solid evidence to back that claim up
    So the web citations and references to an heraldic authority you could look up at the local library don't count?

    Lighten up, Francis.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  3. #23
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Paladin - I think he is EMS only -JJR -- what is your point ?
    Thanks Slack... I read where he referenced something to that effect.

    Should he not focus on the Star of Life, or is it not as interesting?

    ______________

    JJR: When I was about 6, I found out that the Tooth Fairy was a fictional character, but I didn't try to tell everyone and prove it.

    It isn't that you presented the information that I have issue with. My issue is your immature method of trying to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong. That doesn't work here. Offering something of interest, and inciting contempt are two different things.

    I haven't seen anyone post that you are wrong, just that your info is not consistant with their opinion. You, one the other hand, have stated we are wrong.

    So I must conclude you just like to stir the crap.

    Are you one of those little people that have to have their daily drama to feed their tiny ego?

    Be sure you tell the guys you work with that they are wrong and see where that goes.

    I tell you what... why don't we just agree that you are entitled to your opinion, and that you are the only one that seems to care.

    I'll call it a Maltese, you can call it whatever you want.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  4. #24
    Savage / Hyneman 08'
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    Did you know that a shape with 17 equal sides is called a hepadecahedron?

    I will not tolerate being told I am wrong!


    Yeah, not very relevent, but neither is the OP.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    I swear this kid must in some way be related to Crowbar!
    Last edited by BULL321; 10-01-2010 at 12:03 AM.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Should he not focus on the Star of Life, or is it not as interesting?
    [/B]
    Maybe he'll tell you that since it has six points it really isn't a star, so we should all call it the " Asterisk of Life"!

    Of course an asterisk seems to have a few acceptable forms, so maybe we need to consult the patron saint of punctuation for the right answer.

    And by god don't get him started about an ampersand!
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  7. #27
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    Maybe he'll tell you that since it has six points it really isn't a star, so we should all call it the " Asterisk of Life"!

    Of course an asterisk seems to have a few acceptable forms, so maybe we need to consult the patron saint of punctuation for the right answer.

    And by god don't get him started about an ampersand!

    Since you brought it up...


    asterisk: used almost only for replacing the vowels in a curse word by those who are too scared to type the real word.



    Ampersand: A symbol for the word "and" consisting of the two letters e and t in an elaborate ligature, from the Latin word "et," one form of Latin "and."



    And finally:

    The Star of Life is a blue, six-pointed star, outlined with a white border which features the Rod of Asclepius in the center, originally designed and governed by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) (under the United States Department of Transportation, DOT). Traditionally in the United States the logo was used as a stamp of authentication or certification for ambulances, paramedics or other EMS personnel. Internationally, it represents emergency medical services (EMS) units and personnel. A similar orange star is used for search and rescue personnel and yet another version is used for wilderness emergency medical technician.


    Glad to get that out of the way.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  8. #28
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
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    10 characte
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

  9. #29
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Is the rug for sale?
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    I'll take the box fan in the window!
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL
    http://sylvafiredeptnc.tripod.com

  11. #31
    Forum Member Johngagemn's Avatar
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    I could use those curtains...
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  12. #32
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    the rug really ties the room together.

  13. #33
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    I could use the whole house, actually.

    Sure the Star of Life is interesting. Well, relatively speaking, that is. It's not as interesting as, say, naked pictures of Jessica Alba. But it's more interesting than the ingredients list on a packet of M&Ms. The only "discussion" similar to this one that I've ever been involved with regarding the Star of Life was when someone insisted that the symbol in the center was a Caduceus.

    PaladinKnight, I originally posted this just for informational purposes. The way I remember this thread, I didn't get upset until someone insisted I was wrong. Obviously, you see it a different way, and as a result, you have felt it necessary to insult me, while I believe I haven't yet stooped to that level. You are right, though, that I'm entitled to my opinion. I am also entitled to believe the facts, and you are entitled to ignore them if you so choose, which you clearly do in this case. But if you don't care, why bother responding at all? Isn't there anything more constructive or intelligent you could do with your time?

  14. #34
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    I could use the whole house, actually.

    Sure the Star of Life is interesting. Well, relatively speaking, that is. It's not as interesting as, say, naked pictures of Jessica Alba. But it's more interesting than the ingredients list on a packet of M&Ms. The only "discussion" similar to this one that I've ever been involved with regarding the Star of Life was when someone insisted that the symbol in the center was a Caduceus.

    PaladinKnight, I originally posted this just for informational purposes. The way I remember this thread, I didn't get upset until someone insisted I was wrong. Obviously, you see it a different way, and as a result, you have felt it necessary to insult me, while I believe I haven't yet stooped to that level. You are right, though, that I'm entitled to my opinion. I am also entitled to believe the facts, and you are entitled to ignore them if you so choose, which you clearly do in this case. But if you don't care, why bother responding at all? Isn't there anything more constructive or intelligent you could do with your time?

    There you go again with that "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" crap

    I have done something very constructive... evidently you have become interested in the Star of Life.

    As far as insulting you, perhaps... I guess it depends on how thin your skin is. But, you seem to have a short memory my friend, you have done a pretty good job of throwing insults around yourself.

    But since it seems you to bother you so badly, I am sorry that I said anything that may have insulted you. Please accept my apology.

    See, not hard to do. It didn't hurt a bit and I feel so much better now.

    Now if you want to call a truce and move on to something more productive, and hand out a few apologies to some of the members around here, then I am all for it. I'm pretty easy going.

    If you want to behave like an adult and professional, then you should get along fine around here. If you try to cram your opinion down everyone's throat, you're asking for a pile-on. All you have to do is play well with others.

    It's your choice Sir.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    I have done something very constructive... evidently you have become interested in the Star of Life.
    My interest in that predates my first encounter with you. Sorry.

  16. #36
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    My interest in that predates my first encounter with you. Sorry.
    Well that's good.

    I will be looking forward to our chats in the future.

    Please Carry on.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Well that's good.

    I will be looking forward to our chats in the future.

    Please Carry on.
    I understand what you are saying about getting along with others, and not telling people they're wrong, and things like that. I really do. But getting away from the St. Florian's vs. Maltese issue, which I realize is really of no real consequence, how should I handle a situation when someone I work with is doing something wrong, and it's a little bit more serious than this cross issue?

    I'll give you an example. You probably know about the trick in EMS when if a provider suspects an apparently unconscious person is faking being unconscious, the provider will life the patient's arm over his/her face and drop it. If the patient is truly unconscious, the arm will fall straight down and hit the person in the face. If they're faking it, though, the arm will conveniently divert and miss their face.

    I occasionally participate in an EMS-related forum, and through there, I have recently learned that this practice is no longer considered acceptable. Apparently, some people got broken noses from this little trick. So now, EMS providers aren't supposed to do it, and are supposed to use more humane methods of testing for "faking it". Anyway, while new EMS providers (which includes me) might be taught this, all the experienced ones are still using the old trick. I've seen it happen many times myself.

    Is it wrong for me to say something to someone I see using this old trick that is no longer considered appropriate? Of course I wouldn't say anything about it in front of a patient or in the middle of patient care (not unless they were in serious danger of putting a patient's life in danger, which of course this doesn't even come close to), but I mean later, after the call, just one-on-one. Or should I just decide it isn't important enough to sacrifice getting along with everyone?

    Again, I'm asking this not as a continuation of the earlier discussion, which I'd like to consider dead, but as something based on one of the concepts discussed therein, in the interest of my own education. In other words, not to start a new argument or continue an old one, but an honest attempt to expand on something learned from the earlier discussion.

  18. #38
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    I have used the hand drop, but you must protect the face at all costs. Even someone that is faking will let it hit their face. But these are usually people that have seen this before and are ready for it.

    I can't acknowleddge if the practice is no longer acceptable. I know it is still used and within exisiting protocols many places. I think this might be regional or based on the Medical Director. I just don't know the answer since I no longer teach EMT. I realized that there were much better instructors than I in that area.

    The sternum rub might be reliable sometimes, but I have dealt with a lot of pts that don't react. I would not use this if I suspect faking.

    The eyelash test is usually reliable since most people faking will flinch.

    The pen/knuckle test sometimes works but can cause more pain than necessary.

    Years ago, I worked with a guy that would indicate he was going to use a needle to relieve pressure on the brain through the eye socket. He never did of course and if they were faking, they would instantly wake. Today, I consider this abusive toward the patient.

    But my favorite, when I am pretty certain they are faking, is to open one eye and hold a mirror up to it. If the patient is faking, the eye will constrict (and focus) as the patient is looking at their own eye. This is very difficult to ignore or fake. Although, this might not be conclusive on someone that is high or intoxicated. If you can see the eye in the mirror and they move it to look at you, then you know.

    Whatever method you use must be done without warning and quickly to catch the patient off-guard. Keep in mind that nothing is 100%, except if you try to tube them. Of course, you won't go this extreme, but I have seen guys pretend they were getting ready to.

    Sometimes we get fooled, but we still have to treat to the best of our capability. I'll leave it to the doctor to push the needle into the brain.

    We must remember that when determining GCS, we should not inflict any additonal injury or cause any lasting pain. Even a patient faking unconciousness has rights, and we have a duty to treat them responsibly and professionally. Even if they are a frequent flyer.

    Take some advice from this old dog. Sometimes a person has a good reason to fake. I could write a chapter on this issue. It is important that we let them have an escape hatch. If they suddenly wake up, don't react to it by saying "I knew you were just faking". It isn't our job to judge. Our job is to try to fix the problem. Fixing an unconscious patient seems to be a self correcting issue sometimes if we handle it properly. When they open their eyes and try to look at you, treat them the same way you would any patient; "Hi, My name is Joe and I have been sent to help you." If you don't earn the patient's trust, it will be a long ride to the ER.



    As for confronting your co-workers about their methods, don't. You're still learning and it isn't your job to correct them. If they hurt someone needlessly, they will be dealt with when the complaint comes in.

    So where do you draw the line? If you see someone that is about to do something that is outside of their scope, or a clear violation of the protocols, then you are duty-bound to stop them, or suffer the same fate they may receive by your silence. At the very least, you must report it.

    My first ambulance assignment was in 1974, before we had today's standards and protocols. It was a much different world. But I learned as much from observing my co-workers as I did in the classes. Your' co-worker is a teacher, so pay attention. They will be your best source for learning how to survive on the streets.

    I hope this helps.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  19. #39
    Savage / Hyneman 08'
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Since you brought it up...


    asterisk: used almost only for replacing the vowels in a curse word by those who are too scared to type the real word.



    Ampersand: A symbol for the word "and" consisting of the two letters e and t in an elaborate ligature, from the Latin word "et," one form of Latin "and."



    And finally:

    The Star of Life is a blue, six-pointed star, outlined with a white border which features the Rod of Asclepius in the center, originally designed and governed by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) (under the United States Department of Transportation, DOT). Traditionally in the United States the logo was used as a stamp of authentication or certification for ambulances, paramedics or other EMS personnel. Internationally, it represents emergency medical services (EMS) units and personnel. A similar orange star is used for search and rescue personnel and yet another version is used for wilderness emergency medical technician.


    Glad to get that out of the way.
    Job well done!
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  20. #40
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    Wink

    Just like paladin said in some areas the old hand drop at the face is the accepted standard. If the attendant is willing to accept the responsibility for the consequences of their own actions they can treat the patient however they want to as long as they're within their scope of practice and protocols. When they start intentionally endangering the patient is when you need to report them.

    I usually do an earlobe pinch, if I'm uncertain but learning towards unconscious. I do a sternum rub if I have a pediatric patient or patient that was just lucid genuinely becomes unconconcious. I only do it then to figure out if they're unresponsive or not. I picked up nasal trumpeting the ones who I know are faking from a supervisor. As long as they don't have a skull fracture, which you should rule out before attempting, you aren't doing anything that can harm them. Plus it's a technique even the best fakers aren't familiar with so you always get a big flinch, or they miraculously wake up in hopes that you'll stop what you're doing. Unless you've got a hardcore drug-seeker, once you get them in the back of an ambulance with the motor running they usually 'wake-up' as soon as the door slams. They know that we're not going to buy the act so they're better off acting like a decreased loc for the transport.

    My personal favorite is what my medical director does when he's on duty in the er. Every male patient suspected of faking unconsciousness gets a "hernia check". I haven't seen it fail yet.

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