1. #26
    Savage / Hyneman 08'

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Should he not focus on the Star of Life, or is it not as interesting?
    [/B]
    Maybe he'll tell you that since it has six points it really isn't a star, so we should all call it the " Asterisk of Life"!

    Of course an asterisk seems to have a few acceptable forms, so maybe we need to consult the patron saint of punctuation for the right answer.

    And by god don't get him started about an ampersand!
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  2. #27
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DFDMAXX View Post
    Maybe he'll tell you that since it has six points it really isn't a star, so we should all call it the " Asterisk of Life"!

    Of course an asterisk seems to have a few acceptable forms, so maybe we need to consult the patron saint of punctuation for the right answer.

    And by god don't get him started about an ampersand!

    Since you brought it up...


    asterisk: used almost only for replacing the vowels in a curse word by those who are too scared to type the real word.



    Ampersand: A symbol for the word "and" consisting of the two letters e and t in an elaborate ligature, from the Latin word "et," one form of Latin "and."



    And finally:

    The Star of Life is a blue, six-pointed star, outlined with a white border which features the Rod of Asclepius in the center, originally designed and governed by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) (under the United States Department of Transportation, DOT). Traditionally in the United States the logo was used as a stamp of authentication or certification for ambulances, paramedics or other EMS personnel. Internationally, it represents emergency medical services (EMS) units and personnel. A similar orange star is used for search and rescue personnel and yet another version is used for wilderness emergency medical technician.


    Glad to get that out of the way.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  3. #28
    Forum Member
    johnny46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    2,094

    Default

    10 characte
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

  4. #29
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Is the rug for sale?
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  5. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BULL321's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Western, NC
    Posts
    3,432

    Default

    I'll take the box fan in the window!
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL

  6. #31
    Forum Member
    Johngagemn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodbury, MN
    Posts
    99

    Default

    I could use those curtains...
    Just a guy...

    Lieutenant - Woodbury, MN FD (Retired)
    Road Captain - Red Knights MC, MN4

    Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone, and are not intended to represent the views of any company I have ever worked for, past or present.

  7. #32
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    the rug really ties the room together.

  8. #33
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Howard County, MD, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default

    I could use the whole house, actually.

    Sure the Star of Life is interesting. Well, relatively speaking, that is. It's not as interesting as, say, naked pictures of Jessica Alba. But it's more interesting than the ingredients list on a packet of M&Ms. The only "discussion" similar to this one that I've ever been involved with regarding the Star of Life was when someone insisted that the symbol in the center was a Caduceus.

    PaladinKnight, I originally posted this just for informational purposes. The way I remember this thread, I didn't get upset until someone insisted I was wrong. Obviously, you see it a different way, and as a result, you have felt it necessary to insult me, while I believe I haven't yet stooped to that level. You are right, though, that I'm entitled to my opinion. I am also entitled to believe the facts, and you are entitled to ignore them if you so choose, which you clearly do in this case. But if you don't care, why bother responding at all? Isn't there anything more constructive or intelligent you could do with your time?

  9. #34
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    I could use the whole house, actually.

    Sure the Star of Life is interesting. Well, relatively speaking, that is. It's not as interesting as, say, naked pictures of Jessica Alba. But it's more interesting than the ingredients list on a packet of M&Ms. The only "discussion" similar to this one that I've ever been involved with regarding the Star of Life was when someone insisted that the symbol in the center was a Caduceus.

    PaladinKnight, I originally posted this just for informational purposes. The way I remember this thread, I didn't get upset until someone insisted I was wrong. Obviously, you see it a different way, and as a result, you have felt it necessary to insult me, while I believe I haven't yet stooped to that level. You are right, though, that I'm entitled to my opinion. I am also entitled to believe the facts, and you are entitled to ignore them if you so choose, which you clearly do in this case. But if you don't care, why bother responding at all? Isn't there anything more constructive or intelligent you could do with your time?

    There you go again with that "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" crap

    I have done something very constructive... evidently you have become interested in the Star of Life.

    As far as insulting you, perhaps... I guess it depends on how thin your skin is. But, you seem to have a short memory my friend, you have done a pretty good job of throwing insults around yourself.

    But since it seems you to bother you so badly, I am sorry that I said anything that may have insulted you. Please accept my apology.

    See, not hard to do. It didn't hurt a bit and I feel so much better now.

    Now if you want to call a truce and move on to something more productive, and hand out a few apologies to some of the members around here, then I am all for it. I'm pretty easy going.

    If you want to behave like an adult and professional, then you should get along fine around here. If you try to cram your opinion down everyone's throat, you're asking for a pile-on. All you have to do is play well with others.

    It's your choice Sir.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Howard County, MD, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    I have done something very constructive... evidently you have become interested in the Star of Life.
    My interest in that predates my first encounter with you. Sorry.

  11. #36
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    My interest in that predates my first encounter with you. Sorry.
    Well that's good.

    I will be looking forward to our chats in the future.

    Please Carry on.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  12. #37
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Howard County, MD, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Well that's good.

    I will be looking forward to our chats in the future.

    Please Carry on.
    I understand what you are saying about getting along with others, and not telling people they're wrong, and things like that. I really do. But getting away from the St. Florian's vs. Maltese issue, which I realize is really of no real consequence, how should I handle a situation when someone I work with is doing something wrong, and it's a little bit more serious than this cross issue?

    I'll give you an example. You probably know about the trick in EMS when if a provider suspects an apparently unconscious person is faking being unconscious, the provider will life the patient's arm over his/her face and drop it. If the patient is truly unconscious, the arm will fall straight down and hit the person in the face. If they're faking it, though, the arm will conveniently divert and miss their face.

    I occasionally participate in an EMS-related forum, and through there, I have recently learned that this practice is no longer considered acceptable. Apparently, some people got broken noses from this little trick. So now, EMS providers aren't supposed to do it, and are supposed to use more humane methods of testing for "faking it". Anyway, while new EMS providers (which includes me) might be taught this, all the experienced ones are still using the old trick. I've seen it happen many times myself.

    Is it wrong for me to say something to someone I see using this old trick that is no longer considered appropriate? Of course I wouldn't say anything about it in front of a patient or in the middle of patient care (not unless they were in serious danger of putting a patient's life in danger, which of course this doesn't even come close to), but I mean later, after the call, just one-on-one. Or should I just decide it isn't important enough to sacrifice getting along with everyone?

    Again, I'm asking this not as a continuation of the earlier discussion, which I'd like to consider dead, but as something based on one of the concepts discussed therein, in the interest of my own education. In other words, not to start a new argument or continue an old one, but an honest attempt to expand on something learned from the earlier discussion.

  13. #38
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    I have used the hand drop, but you must protect the face at all costs. Even someone that is faking will let it hit their face. But these are usually people that have seen this before and are ready for it.

    I can't acknowleddge if the practice is no longer acceptable. I know it is still used and within exisiting protocols many places. I think this might be regional or based on the Medical Director. I just don't know the answer since I no longer teach EMT. I realized that there were much better instructors than I in that area.

    The sternum rub might be reliable sometimes, but I have dealt with a lot of pts that don't react. I would not use this if I suspect faking.

    The eyelash test is usually reliable since most people faking will flinch.

    The pen/knuckle test sometimes works but can cause more pain than necessary.

    Years ago, I worked with a guy that would indicate he was going to use a needle to relieve pressure on the brain through the eye socket. He never did of course and if they were faking, they would instantly wake. Today, I consider this abusive toward the patient.

    But my favorite, when I am pretty certain they are faking, is to open one eye and hold a mirror up to it. If the patient is faking, the eye will constrict (and focus) as the patient is looking at their own eye. This is very difficult to ignore or fake. Although, this might not be conclusive on someone that is high or intoxicated. If you can see the eye in the mirror and they move it to look at you, then you know.

    Whatever method you use must be done without warning and quickly to catch the patient off-guard. Keep in mind that nothing is 100%, except if you try to tube them. Of course, you won't go this extreme, but I have seen guys pretend they were getting ready to.

    Sometimes we get fooled, but we still have to treat to the best of our capability. I'll leave it to the doctor to push the needle into the brain.

    We must remember that when determining GCS, we should not inflict any additonal injury or cause any lasting pain. Even a patient faking unconciousness has rights, and we have a duty to treat them responsibly and professionally. Even if they are a frequent flyer.

    Take some advice from this old dog. Sometimes a person has a good reason to fake. I could write a chapter on this issue. It is important that we let them have an escape hatch. If they suddenly wake up, don't react to it by saying "I knew you were just faking". It isn't our job to judge. Our job is to try to fix the problem. Fixing an unconscious patient seems to be a self correcting issue sometimes if we handle it properly. When they open their eyes and try to look at you, treat them the same way you would any patient; "Hi, My name is Joe and I have been sent to help you." If you don't earn the patient's trust, it will be a long ride to the ER.



    As for confronting your co-workers about their methods, don't. You're still learning and it isn't your job to correct them. If they hurt someone needlessly, they will be dealt with when the complaint comes in.

    So where do you draw the line? If you see someone that is about to do something that is outside of their scope, or a clear violation of the protocols, then you are duty-bound to stop them, or suffer the same fate they may receive by your silence. At the very least, you must report it.

    My first ambulance assignment was in 1974, before we had today's standards and protocols. It was a much different world. But I learned as much from observing my co-workers as I did in the classes. Your' co-worker is a teacher, so pay attention. They will be your best source for learning how to survive on the streets.

    I hope this helps.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  14. #39
    Savage / Hyneman 08'

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Since you brought it up...


    asterisk: used almost only for replacing the vowels in a curse word by those who are too scared to type the real word.



    Ampersand: A symbol for the word "and" consisting of the two letters e and t in an elaborate ligature, from the Latin word "et," one form of Latin "and."



    And finally:

    The Star of Life is a blue, six-pointed star, outlined with a white border which features the Rod of Asclepius in the center, originally designed and governed by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) (under the United States Department of Transportation, DOT). Traditionally in the United States the logo was used as a stamp of authentication or certification for ambulances, paramedics or other EMS personnel. Internationally, it represents emergency medical services (EMS) units and personnel. A similar orange star is used for search and rescue personnel and yet another version is used for wilderness emergency medical technician.


    Glad to get that out of the way.
    Job well done!
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  15. #40
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    78

    Wink

    Just like paladin said in some areas the old hand drop at the face is the accepted standard. If the attendant is willing to accept the responsibility for the consequences of their own actions they can treat the patient however they want to as long as they're within their scope of practice and protocols. When they start intentionally endangering the patient is when you need to report them.

    I usually do an earlobe pinch, if I'm uncertain but learning towards unconscious. I do a sternum rub if I have a pediatric patient or patient that was just lucid genuinely becomes unconconcious. I only do it then to figure out if they're unresponsive or not. I picked up nasal trumpeting the ones who I know are faking from a supervisor. As long as they don't have a skull fracture, which you should rule out before attempting, you aren't doing anything that can harm them. Plus it's a technique even the best fakers aren't familiar with so you always get a big flinch, or they miraculously wake up in hopes that you'll stop what you're doing. Unless you've got a hardcore drug-seeker, once you get them in the back of an ambulance with the motor running they usually 'wake-up' as soon as the door slams. They know that we're not going to buy the act so they're better off acting like a decreased loc for the transport.

    My personal favorite is what my medical director does when he's on duty in the er. Every male patient suspected of faking unconsciousness gets a "hernia check". I haven't seen it fail yet.

  16. #41
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    I'm not a handdrop fan.

    A brisk sternal rub is much more fun.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  17. #42
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,257

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    Re: PaladinKnight and slackjawedyokel...

    One day, I happened to find out what the cross that firefighters call "Maltese" is actually and more accurately or specifically called something else. I happened to find that interesting. Did knowing the correct name for it make me a better person? Not in the least.

    I thought some other people might find this fact interesting as well, so I presented it in case anyone was. You can choose to learn from it or not. You can choose to believe it or not. It really doesn't matter to me; it's not like I get ten bucks every time somebody says "St. Florian's Cross".

    But being told I'm wrong, with no real solid evidence to back that claim up, based on ignorance or tradition, is something that I won't put up with. And I don't care if that means I don't make your friends list or not. I'm not here because I feel like I need more friends in my life, although that's always nice to have.

    I do get along better with people fact-to-face than I do over the internet, though, that much is true.


    I sure would hope so!

    Leave it lay sonny. You have beat this thing into the ground.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  18. #43
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Howard County, MD, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    I sure would hope so!

    Leave it lay sonny. You have beat this thing into the ground.
    I think you must have missed the part where I already did leave it lay: "But getting away from the St. Florian's vs. Maltese issue, which I realize is really of no real consequence...not as a continuation of the earlier discussion, which I'd like to consider dead." So really it's you who's continuing it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by KanFireman View Post
    Just like paladin said in some areas the old hand drop at the face is the accepted standard. If the attendant is willing to accept the responsibility for the consequences of their own actions they can treat the patient however they want to as long as they're within their scope of practice and protocols. When they start intentionally endangering the patient is when you need to report them.
    The thing is, though, I don't know if this provider (a paramedic) even knows that there might be bad consequences of his actions. This particular paramedic, while not an old-timer by the standard of some of the people here , has been doing it for years, and my impression was this concept that it's dangerous is fairly new. I'm also pretty sure it's not in the protocols, but is, at least here, a "street trick".

    I think I'm leaning this way...I don't think this particular trick is particularly dangerous. I don't think it's worth reporting to a higher-up. I think that I can find a way to discuss it with the provider directly, though, in non-confrontational way...Yes, believe it or not, I can be non-confrontational. It would be wrong for me to go up to him and say, "Hey dude, the new, modern, humane EMS theory is that what you did is dangerous, so you shouldn't do it anymore." I think a better way would be, "I recently read on am EMS website that in some areas of the country, they think the hand drop is dangerous, and it's actually broken some noses. I know we do it all the time around here. What do you think about what they're saying at that website?"

    Would that approach work? It might not necessarily get the guy to change what he's doing, but at least he's thinking about it, and I think it would come across more as a discussion from someone who wants to learn, rather than a statement from some hotshot newbie who thinks he can make everything perfect just because he has fresh training. What do you think?

  19. #44
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512
    The thing is, though, I don't know if this provider (a paramedic) even knows that there might be bad consequences of his actions. This particular paramedic, while not an old-timer by the standard of some of the people here , has been doing it for years, and my impression was this concept that it's dangerous is fairly new. I'm also pretty sure it's not in the protocols, but is, at least here, a "street trick".
    1) I'm sure he knows if he lets the hand drop on the face it could injury the patient. This is why I stated, protect the face (with your other hand).

    2) Again, I think this method might be restricted in some regions or by Medical Director.

    3) Be certain what the prototcols say.

    4) Some say the hand drop is a trick. I don't consider it a trick if it is excepted by protocol.

    Remember, if you confront the team members with your personal feelings on this, you run the risk of acquiring an name for yourself. Once they don't want to play with you, then you will not work there long. And again, report abuse but control your personal feelings. You just came out of training, you still have a lot to learn. Observe, listen, and follow directions and you stand a better chance of longevity. If you rock the boat, they will toss you overboard.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  20. #45
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    1) I'm sure he knows if he lets the hand drop on the face it could injury the patient. This is why I stated, protect the face (with your other hand).
    Once again it looks J-JunioR has heard something in passing that was presented as a Fact(TM) and accepted it as the gospel truth without pausing to consider that there might be alternative opinions about said "fact."

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    I have recently learned that this practice is no longer considered acceptable.
    Oh, really?

    http://theemtspot.com/2009/07/04/tes...the-hand-drop/
    http://www.impactednurse.com/?p=2104
    http://randomreality.blogware.com/bl...1/4510942.html

    Apparently, it's perfectly acceptable and still widely practiced by the rest of the world.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  21. #46
    Forum Member
    johnny46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    2,094

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    I have used the hand drop, but you must protect the face at all costs. Even someone that is faking will let it hit their face. But these are usually people that have seen this before and are ready for it.
    Hand drop is the best ever. It's not going to hurt their face. If someone is so fragile that their hand hitting their face from a few inches up is going to damage them, then a sternal rub will probably cause them to explode, covering everyone in a viscous soup of body parts and possibly imapling people with shards of bone.

    People don't like hitting themselves in the face. Even if you tell them the test ahead of time and how to fake it, they still won't hit themselves in the face.
    Last edited by johnny46; 10-02-2010 at 10:01 AM.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

  22. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Just proves that we'll argue about anything and everything here (and at the firehouse for that matter).
    No we won't.





    I know you are but what am I?
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  23. #48
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I know you are but what am I?
    The Chief's apple polisher.

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Custom Embroidery Maltese Cross Design
    By CowboyD Eng6ine in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-24-2010, 10:26 AM
  2. Maltese Cross
    By FFZKLH in forum Probie House: The Place for Newbies
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-06-2006, 02:51 PM
  3. Maltese Cross
    By MVFD81 in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-30-2003, 04:56 PM
  4. Maltese Cross
    By fallujahff in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-06-2002, 09:38 AM
  5. The Maltese Cross
    By WFD 507 in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-03-2000, 04:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register