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  1. #41
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    I'm not a handdrop fan.

    A brisk sternal rub is much more fun.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."


  2. #42
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    Re: PaladinKnight and slackjawedyokel...

    One day, I happened to find out what the cross that firefighters call "Maltese" is actually and more accurately or specifically called something else. I happened to find that interesting. Did knowing the correct name for it make me a better person? Not in the least.

    I thought some other people might find this fact interesting as well, so I presented it in case anyone was. You can choose to learn from it or not. You can choose to believe it or not. It really doesn't matter to me; it's not like I get ten bucks every time somebody says "St. Florian's Cross".

    But being told I'm wrong, with no real solid evidence to back that claim up, based on ignorance or tradition, is something that I won't put up with. And I don't care if that means I don't make your friends list or not. I'm not here because I feel like I need more friends in my life, although that's always nice to have.

    I do get along better with people fact-to-face than I do over the internet, though, that much is true.


    I sure would hope so!

    Leave it lay sonny. You have beat this thing into the ground.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    I sure would hope so!

    Leave it lay sonny. You have beat this thing into the ground.
    I think you must have missed the part where I already did leave it lay: "But getting away from the St. Florian's vs. Maltese issue, which I realize is really of no real consequence...not as a continuation of the earlier discussion, which I'd like to consider dead." So really it's you who's continuing it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by KanFireman View Post
    Just like paladin said in some areas the old hand drop at the face is the accepted standard. If the attendant is willing to accept the responsibility for the consequences of their own actions they can treat the patient however they want to as long as they're within their scope of practice and protocols. When they start intentionally endangering the patient is when you need to report them.
    The thing is, though, I don't know if this provider (a paramedic) even knows that there might be bad consequences of his actions. This particular paramedic, while not an old-timer by the standard of some of the people here , has been doing it for years, and my impression was this concept that it's dangerous is fairly new. I'm also pretty sure it's not in the protocols, but is, at least here, a "street trick".

    I think I'm leaning this way...I don't think this particular trick is particularly dangerous. I don't think it's worth reporting to a higher-up. I think that I can find a way to discuss it with the provider directly, though, in non-confrontational way...Yes, believe it or not, I can be non-confrontational. It would be wrong for me to go up to him and say, "Hey dude, the new, modern, humane EMS theory is that what you did is dangerous, so you shouldn't do it anymore." I think a better way would be, "I recently read on am EMS website that in some areas of the country, they think the hand drop is dangerous, and it's actually broken some noses. I know we do it all the time around here. What do you think about what they're saying at that website?"

    Would that approach work? It might not necessarily get the guy to change what he's doing, but at least he's thinking about it, and I think it would come across more as a discussion from someone who wants to learn, rather than a statement from some hotshot newbie who thinks he can make everything perfect just because he has fresh training. What do you think?

  4. #44
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512
    The thing is, though, I don't know if this provider (a paramedic) even knows that there might be bad consequences of his actions. This particular paramedic, while not an old-timer by the standard of some of the people here , has been doing it for years, and my impression was this concept that it's dangerous is fairly new. I'm also pretty sure it's not in the protocols, but is, at least here, a "street trick".
    1) I'm sure he knows if he lets the hand drop on the face it could injury the patient. This is why I stated, protect the face (with your other hand).

    2) Again, I think this method might be restricted in some regions or by Medical Director.

    3) Be certain what the prototcols say.

    4) Some say the hand drop is a trick. I don't consider it a trick if it is excepted by protocol.

    Remember, if you confront the team members with your personal feelings on this, you run the risk of acquiring an name for yourself. Once they don't want to play with you, then you will not work there long. And again, report abuse but control your personal feelings. You just came out of training, you still have a lot to learn. Observe, listen, and follow directions and you stand a better chance of longevity. If you rock the boat, they will toss you overboard.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  5. #45
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    1) I'm sure he knows if he lets the hand drop on the face it could injury the patient. This is why I stated, protect the face (with your other hand).
    Once again it looks J-JunioR has heard something in passing that was presented as a Fact(TM) and accepted it as the gospel truth without pausing to consider that there might be alternative opinions about said "fact."

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    I have recently learned that this practice is no longer considered acceptable.
    Oh, really?

    http://theemtspot.com/2009/07/04/tes...the-hand-drop/
    http://www.impactednurse.com/?p=2104
    http://randomreality.blogware.com/bl...1/4510942.html

    Apparently, it's perfectly acceptable and still widely practiced by the rest of the world.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  6. #46
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    I have used the hand drop, but you must protect the face at all costs. Even someone that is faking will let it hit their face. But these are usually people that have seen this before and are ready for it.
    Hand drop is the best ever. It's not going to hurt their face. If someone is so fragile that their hand hitting their face from a few inches up is going to damage them, then a sternal rub will probably cause them to explode, covering everyone in a viscous soup of body parts and possibly imapling people with shards of bone.

    People don't like hitting themselves in the face. Even if you tell them the test ahead of time and how to fake it, they still won't hit themselves in the face.
    Last edited by johnny46; 10-02-2010 at 10:01 AM.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

  7. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Just proves that we'll argue about anything and everything here (and at the firehouse for that matter).
    No we won't.





    I know you are but what am I?
    Jason Knecht
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    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  8. #48
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I know you are but what am I?
    The Chief's apple polisher.

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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