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    Post Think you know what a Maltese Cross looks like? Think again...



    Every firefighter knows what this cross (both variations) is called, right?

    If you said, "Of course, that's the Maltese Cross!" sorry, that is incorrect.

    This is a Maltese Cross:


    The cross that many firefighters mistakenly refer to as "Maltese" is actually the cross of St. Florian. St. Florian is the patron saint of firefighters. More about him, and why he is that, can be found here: http://www.saintflorian.net/legend/legend.html

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    It started out like the Maltese, but then promoted to chauffer.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post


    Every firefighter knows what this cross (both variations) is called, right?

    If you said, "Of course, that's the Maltese Cross!" sorry, that is incorrect.

    This is a Maltese Cross:


    The cross that many firefighters mistakenly refer to as "Maltese" is actually the cross of St. Florian. St. Florian is the patron saint of firefighters. More about him, and why he is that, can be found here: http://www.saintflorian.net/legend/legend.html
    And..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    If you said, "Of course, that's the Maltese Cross!" sorry, that is incorrect.
    Yes and no. The Cross of St. Florian is a form of Maltese Cross. In terms of heraldry, it's still just a stylized Maltese.

    http://st-florian-medal.com/st-flori...rian-cross.htm
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post


    Every firefighter knows what this cross (both variations) is called, right?

    If you said, "Of course, that's the Maltese Cross!" sorry, that is incorrect.

    This is a Maltese Cross:


    The cross that many firefighters mistakenly refer to as "Maltese" is actually the cross of St. Florian. St. Florian is the patron saint of firefighters. More about him, and why he is that, can be found here: http://www.saintflorian.net/legend/legend.html

    My sister has a Maltese and it don't look like dat. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    My sister has a Maltese and it don't look like dat. T.C.
    You're thinking of a "cross Maltese"...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSa9O...ayer_embedded#!
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    HISTORY AND HERITAGE / ORIGIN OF THE MALTESE CROSS



    When a courageous band of crusaders known as the Knights of St. John, fought the Saracens for possession of the holy land, they encountered a new weapon unknown to European warriors. It was a simple, but a horrible device of war, it wrought excruciating pain and agonizing death upon the brave fighters for the cross. The Saracen's weapon was, fire.

    As the crusaders advanced on the walls of the city, they were struck by glass bombs containing naphtha. When they became saturated with the highly flammable liquid, the Saracens hurled a flaming torch into their midst. Hundreds of the knights were burned alive; others risked their lives to save their brothers-in-arms from dying painful, fiery deaths.

    Thus, these men became our first firefighter and the first of a long list of courageous firefighters. Their heroic efforts were recognized by fellow crusaders who awarded each here a badge of honor - a cross similar to the one firefighter's wear today. Since the Knights of St. John lived for close to four centuries on a little island in the Mediterranean Sea named Malta, the cross came to be known as the Maltese Cross.

    The Maltese Cross is your symbol of protection. It means that the firefighter who wears this cross is willing to lay down his life for you just as the crusaders sacrificed their lives for their fellow man so many years ago. The Maltese Cross is a firefighter's badge of honor, signifying that he works in courage - a ladder rung away from death.


    Firefighter Maltese Cross

    The Maltese Cross is used throughout the Fire Service in the United States as a symbol of Honor, Courage, and Dedication.

    But, where did it come from and how did it transform into the symbol of the Firefigher?

    According to many websites, we need to go back to 1113 AD.
    This is when a special group of Knights were founded in Jerusalem by a Benedictine monk. These eleventh century knights who were serving in a Jerusalem hospital, became known as the Order of Knights Hospitaller and later became the Knights of St. John.

    This charitable organization shared the compassion as do today's Firefighters by caring for the ill with great compasion. Later they assisted the Knights of Crusaders in thier effort to win back the Holy Land. As the Knights of St. John and Knights of Crusaders defended the city walls, their fierce opponents who were called, the Saracens, staged an aggressive attack and hurled fire bombs containing highly flammable liquids. As the Knights banded together they were forced to fight the flames of their attackers. It was during this intense fire fight that the courage of our Firefighting ancestors was demonstrated. The Knights banded together, risked life and limb for their Brothers and fought the flames, and saved many fellow Knighs. The Knights were later recognized for their bravery during the epic battle located on the Island of Malta.

    As a result of their valiant efforts, the Island of Malta was given to the courageous knights. The symbol on thier flag, the eight-point cross, became known as the Maltese Cross. The eight points on the cross have various meanings. However, the most widely accepted principles reflect The Eight Beatitudes as written in Mathew 5:3-10 (King James Version) entitled the "Sermon on the Mount".
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    It started out like the Maltese, but then promoted to chauffer.
    Ouch! lol

    -Damien

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    don't care, if I say maltese cross people are going to recognize the one from fire trucks. Besides they are both 8 pointed crosses anyways, the fire service one is just more stylized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Yes and no. The Cross of St. Florian is a form of Maltese Cross. In terms of heraldry, it's still just a stylized Maltese.

    http://st-florian-medal.com/st-flori...rian-cross.htm
    A Maltese Cross is a specific type of cross. A Cross of St. Florian is a specific type of cross. The two are not the same. Neither is a generic term that includes the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    A Maltese Cross is a specific type of cross. A Cross of St. Florian is a specific type of cross. The two are not the same. Neither is a generic term that includes the other.
    Citation?

    I've posted one on-line reference already. Here's another:

    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/maltese.html
    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/florian.html

    I'd also suggest you consult A.C. Fox-Davies' works on heraldic ordinaries specifically with regard to the crosses Maltese and Patee. The traditional firefigher's emblem arguably owes some of its ancestry to both.

    "Remember, Heralds never pun; they cant."
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Citation?

    I've posted one on-line reference already. Here's another:

    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/maltese.html
    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/florian.html

    I'd also suggest you consult A.C. Fox-Davies' works on heraldic ordinaries specifically with regard to the crosses Maltese and Patee. The traditional firefigher's emblem arguably owes some of its ancestry to both.

    "Remember, Heralds never pun; they cant."
    For my citation, I hereby present the following two websites:

    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/maltese.html
    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/florian.html

    The first describes the Maltese Cross. None of the descriptions are of the specific cross that the second website describes as a St. Florian's Cross.

    The second website describes St. Florian's Cross. None of the descriptions are of the specific cross that the first website describes as a Maltese Cross.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post


    Every firefighter knows what this cross (both variations) is called, right?

    If you said, "Of course, that's the Maltese Cross!" sorry, that is incorrect.

    This is a Maltese Cross:


    The cross that many firefighters mistakenly refer to as "Maltese" is actually the cross of St. Florian. St. Florian is the patron saint of firefighters. More about him, and why he is that, can be found here: http://www.saintflorian.net/legend/legend.html


    You have too much time on your hands.


    There are variations of the symbol.

    Live with it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    For my citation, I hereby present the following two websites:

    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/maltese.html
    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/florian.html

    The first describes the Maltese Cross. None of the descriptions are of the specific cross that the second website describes as a St. Florian's Cross.

    The second website describes St. Florian's Cross. None of the descriptions are of the specific cross that the first website describes as a Maltese Cross.

    It's helpful if you actually read the article you're citing before you try and use it.

    From the Maltese Cross page:

    Military Cross of Valour

    Military Cross of Valour
    One interpretation of the 'sharp' pointed cross is of four fishtails. The fish symbol was adopted by the early Christian church and the design has long been used as a Hospitaller Cross and Crusader Cross. From this we have the basis of numerous military crosses, including:

    St. John's Cross
    St. Florian's Cross
    •various Campaign Crosses
    •(Belgian) Croix de Guerre
    •(British) Elizabeth Cross, Military Cross, Victoria Cross
    •(Dutch) Oorlogskruis
    •(French) Croix de Guerre
    •(German) Honour Cross, Knight's Cross, Iron Cross
    •(Polish) Military Cross of Valour
    •(Ukraine) Cossack Cross
    •(U.S.) Distinguished Flying Cross, Navy Cross, Army Distinguished Service Cross
    From the St Florian's Cross page:

    The St. Florian's Cross is based on the St. John's Cross.
    If you follow the St John's Cross link:

    St. John's Cross
    known also as the Maltese Cross, Pattée Cross and several other names
    Nice try.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    It's helpful if you actually read the article you're citing before you try and use it.

    From the Maltese Cross page:



    From the St Florian's Cross page:



    If you follow the St John's Cross link:



    Nice try.
    I did actually read it. And I stand by what I said. When something is "based on" something else, it is not the same thing as what it's based on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    I did actually read it. And I stand by what I said. When something is "based on" something else, it is not the same thing as what it's based on.
    JJR

    What is your point and where is this going?

    Is your purpose to disrupt the long held belief that Firefighters have of the Maltese Cross?

    Is your purpose to prove yourself an authority on the subject?

    Or is your purpose just to cause trouble? It seems you do your best to argue with everyone that doesn't agree with you.

    I don't get it. I don't mind learning new information if it is constructive or serves a purpose. As a student of history, and being aware of the information you have posted, it is not compelling evidence that changes my mind, nor I doubt of most. In the big scheme of things, it just doesn't matter.

    We call our emblem (cross) the Maltese. That is widely accepted and there is nothing that you can say or present that is going to change that fact. If you wish to run against the grain by trying to tell us we are incorrect, you won't make friends here. That would be very unfortunate.

    But you seem to be trying to prove something here, and I don't mean the origin of the Maltese Cross.

    I don't know how long you have been in the fire service, but longevity depends much on how you get along with others.

    For just the few post you have under your belt, you're posts are not yet constructive and winning any prizes.

    But just so I give you a fair shake... I hereby award you with the "Newbie Know It All" prize for the day.

    Yea I know, I'm not making your friend list... but you should really try another approach.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Paladin - I think he is EMS only -JJR -- what is your point ?

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    Just proves that we'll argue about anything and everything here (and at the firehouse for that matter).
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Re: PaladinKnight and slackjawedyokel...

    One day, I happened to find out what the cross that firefighters call "Maltese" is actually and more accurately or specifically called something else. I happened to find that interesting. Did knowing the correct name for it make me a better person? Not in the least.

    I thought some other people might find this fact interesting as well, so I presented it in case anyone was. You can choose to learn from it or not. You can choose to believe it or not. It really doesn't matter to me; it's not like I get ten bucks every time somebody says "St. Florian's Cross".

    But being told I'm wrong, with no real solid evidence to back that claim up, based on ignorance or tradition, is something that I won't put up with. And I don't care if that means I don't make your friends list or not. I'm not here because I feel like I need more friends in my life, although that's always nice to have.

    I do get along better with people fact-to-face than I do over the internet, though, that much is true.

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    jr - I think the vast majority of fireman on here know the basic history of the maltese cross and of St. Florian . As long as it is recognized as a maltese cross - and the first pictures you posted are what 99% of fireman and the general public recognize as one. Its the meaning behind it -that counts.

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    JJR, you go ahead and call it a St Florian's cross. Good for you.

    I, along with everyone here and in the fire service, will continue to call it a Maltese cross.

    Have a nice day.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

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    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    so I presented it in case anyone was.
    You made an unsubstantiated statement. That's not "presenting a case;" it's repeating a disconnected piece of trivia.

    But being told I'm wrong
    Nobody said you were wrong. It was just pointed out that you were only partly right. The cross of St. Florian is a form of Maltese cross. Cope.

    with no real solid evidence to back that claim up
    So the web citations and references to an heraldic authority you could look up at the local library don't count?

    Lighten up, Francis.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Paladin - I think he is EMS only -JJR -- what is your point ?
    Thanks Slack... I read where he referenced something to that effect.

    Should he not focus on the Star of Life, or is it not as interesting?

    ______________

    JJR: When I was about 6, I found out that the Tooth Fairy was a fictional character, but I didn't try to tell everyone and prove it.

    It isn't that you presented the information that I have issue with. My issue is your immature method of trying to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong. That doesn't work here. Offering something of interest, and inciting contempt are two different things.

    I haven't seen anyone post that you are wrong, just that your info is not consistant with their opinion. You, one the other hand, have stated we are wrong.

    So I must conclude you just like to stir the crap.

    Are you one of those little people that have to have their daily drama to feed their tiny ego?

    Be sure you tell the guys you work with that they are wrong and see where that goes.

    I tell you what... why don't we just agree that you are entitled to your opinion, and that you are the only one that seems to care.

    I'll call it a Maltese, you can call it whatever you want.
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Did you know that a shape with 17 equal sides is called a hepadecahedron?

    I will not tolerate being told I am wrong!


    Yeah, not very relevent, but neither is the OP.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

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    I swear this kid must in some way be related to Crowbar!
    Last edited by BULL321; 10-01-2010 at 12:03 AM.
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    Bull


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