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# Thread: Flammable liquids live training

1. ## Flammable liquids live training

Hi,

I'm teaching at an industrial site, and they have a pit for live training on flammable liquids. The last training was done 25 years ago so no one can tell me how much fuel to put in. The pit is 30 inches deep with 12 inches of water in it.

Is there a formula using square footage for how much fuel to put in? I've searched but haven't found anything helpful. I want just enough in there. Not enough - poor fire, too much - my partner and I are there all day as we are to burn off the remainder after training is done.

I'm thinking an 80% diesel 20% gasoline mix, but need to know how much total.

Any ideas??

Thanks

2. Maybe there is a reason it has not been used in so many years

How is the fire going to be extinguished?? Extinguisher, hand line???

What is the diameter??

3. Reason it hasn't been used, no one knows,

Extinguishing with 1 3/4" line with foam.

Pit is approx. 20' x 20' square. will measure tomorrow.

I have watched the initial burn on tape, when elkhart brass ran a class on all the new equipment the site purchased in 1985.

they put it out in about 20 seconds

4. Try contacting the Wisconsin Fire Academy.

Wisconsin Fire Service Education and Training

5. This is the training site that I have been to in Ohio. They used to be part of the Ohio Fire School. This is the type of thing they do there all the time. http://www.marad.dot.gov/about_us_la...ing_center.htm

6. As much as many of the "sallies" on here are going to hate this statement, I would wing it. I doubt such a calculation even exists.

Fuel it up until youy think it's enough.

If it goes out too quickly put more in next time. If it takes to long to extinguish, put less.

It's in a pit, it's not gonna go anywhere. Don't make it harder than it has to be.

7. I would only use #2 fuel oil and start with about 200 gal for a 30 ft diameter tank. This will give a fuel depth of about 3/8" and should last about 10 minutes. Burn rates will increase as the temperature of the water increases after a number of burns. If your crews get carried away and cause the fog pattern to be driven into the fuel, you will get some mixing of water and fuel as well as entrained air. This can be difficult to light. Use a small container (1/2 cup or less) of gasoline dumped on the froth or fuel as an aid to ignition. When delivering the gas, keep the torch man a long way away from the pit until after the cup is dumped.
As some others have said, adjust the fuel quantity acording to the ability of the crews. A clear pit is not a realistic scenario for a real refinery fire, so if possible arrange some metal to block the ability to sweep the flame off the surface with the fog pattern. Some training actually teaches techniqies to "run" the flame off the surface if the flammable is contained in a definite area (dike). Using a gasoline mixture (low flash point liquids) can make flash backs a real possibility when using water fog for extinguishment. Crude spills can be pretty hairy since there can be a significant amounts of pentanes and hexanes in the mixture. It is much safer to use refined product with a flash point above 100 deg. F. Check out photobucket http://s679.photobucket.com/albums/v...t=100_0495.jpg

8. Not sure about other areas but around here the fire departments can't get a liquid burn permit from the EPA for this.

Most everything now has been reduced to LP trees, or burners inside burn building. Sometimes you can have a pallet or two inside with a couple bales of hay and ignite them.

9. Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer
Not sure about other areas but around here the fire departments can't get a liquid burn permit from the EPA for this.
That is really sad. How can you be expected to deal with a liquid fire if you have never seen one before? I understand the pollution aspect but in the grand scheme of things, to me, doing the training with pollution is a lesser evil than potentially sending crews into a situation without as good of training as you can give them.

10. Burn is done, about 100 gallons 80% #2 diesel, 20% gasoline worked well. Pit was about 30' square.