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    Default Leather helmet questions...

    I searched but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. I kinda did...just need some clarification.

    Putting the OSHA/NFPA debate aside, I am aware of all that...is the currently produced Cairns G5A the same helmet that was used on the job years ago (N5)? I understand it is labeled a presentation helmet and not intended for actual use. I just wanted to make sure it whether it was the same or not.

    Also...I have been looking at some of the old leathers for sale and they are fitted. Even though they have an exact measurement...are they at all adjustable? I have a melon head so I was wondering if I found something labeled as a 7 1/4 or 7 1/2...is there some adjustment in there that would allow it to go up in size?

    Thanks.

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    The G5A is...
    ...similar to the older Model 5A worn years ago and still being worn by the "Old Timer."
    http://www.thefirestore.com/catalog/...met-268-10702/

    If you are interested in an N5, how about the currently-produced N5A? http://www.thefirestore.com/catalog/...ker-324-10714/

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    Quote Originally Posted by WVleatherhead View Post
    I searched but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. I kinda did...just need some clarification.

    Putting the OSHA/NFPA debate aside, I am aware of all that...is the currently produced Cairns G5A the same helmet that was used on the job years ago (N5)? I understand it is labeled a presentation helmet and not intended for actual use. I just wanted to make sure it whether it was the same or not.

    Also...I have been looking at some of the old leathers for sale and they are fitted. Even though they have an exact measurement...are they at all adjustable? I have a melon head so I was wondering if I found something labeled as a 7 1/4 or 7 1/2...is there some adjustment in there that would allow it to go up in size?

    Thanks.
    Watch out for a few people on here who will call the NFPA police on you...

    As far as I know, it is identical to the 5A of old. And, yes, they are adjustable to some degree. Not much though. There is a white plastic band that you can make minor adjustments to. You can also add like foam weatherstripping. thefirestore.com sells it.
    Good luck and stay away from those phony Phenix helmets.

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    I tried on an old 5A the other day and it was the most comfortable helmet I have ever put on my head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    I always laugh at the guys who warn people about the "NFPA Police." Why? Because they are the very same people who will whine, cry, protest, bitch, **** and moan, cry foul, and say what heartless bastards the fire department and city are when their injury claim is denied because they weren't wearing department approved or NFPA approved gear.

    Frankly, I don't care what you wear. It has no bearing on my life what so ever. But when, and if, you are injured and your equipment is called into question shut up and take the consequennces.

    I am fully prepared to be beaten soundly by people who simply refuse to understand what I said and also refuse to FULLY accept the consequences of what I said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I always laugh at the guys who warn people about the "NFPA Police." Why? Because they are the very same people who will whine, cry, protest, bitch, **** and moan, cry foul, and say what heartless bastards the fire department and city are when their injury claim is denied because they weren't wearing department approved or NFPA approved gear.

    Frankly, I don't care what you wear. It has no bearing on my life what so ever. But when, and if, you are injured and your equipment is called into question shut up and take the consequennces.

    I am fully prepared to be beaten soundly by people who simply refuse to understand what I said and also refuse to FULLY accept the consequences of what I said.
    I have asked many times on here (and maybe you at some point) to provide proof this. I want to what city or town has denied benefits because of non NFPA compliant helmet. How about anything for that matter. No one has ever been able to answer that.

    Your department, just like mine, doesn't follow the NFPA within every aspect. If my gear is 10 years old and I die in a fire, will they refuse to pay benefits?

    Whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    I have asked many times on here (and maybe you at some point) to provide proof this. I want to what city or town has denied benefits because of non NFPA compliant helmet. How about anything for that matter. No one has ever been able to answer that.

    Your department, just like mine, doesn't follow the NFPA within every aspect. If my gear is 10 years old and I die in a fire, will they refuse to pay benefits?

    Whatever.
    MOST states are Osha states. Some have adopted Nfpa standards,some more than others. FEW have adopted them all.So if you are an Osha state,you should have no issues with a N5a.it's Osha compliant. IF you happen to be in one of the others perhaps a N6a would be a better choice. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    I have asked many times on here (and maybe you at some point) to provide proof this. I want to what city or town has denied benefits because of non NFPA compliant helmet. How about anything for that matter. No one has ever been able to answer that.

    Your department, just like mine, doesn't follow the NFPA within every aspect. If my gear is 10 years old and I die in a fire, will they refuse to pay benefits?

    Whatever.
    My career FD's policy states quite clearly that you will wear issued NFPA approved PPE, to include the helmet, OR you may purchase your own helmet if it is on the approved list and it meets current NFPA standards. I guess as far as PPE goes they do care that you wear NFPA approved gear.

    Like I said, I don't care what any of the rest of you wear, hell go back to 3/4 boots, long rubber coats, fireball gloves, filter masks, and the old tin Senator helmets if it makes you happy. As for me, in this litiginous society and understanding the political climate of today I wll wear my NFPA approved PPE, to include my helmet.

    By the way, if you are still wearing 10 year old turnouts your Union Health and safety committee has HUGELY dropped the ball. My career FD replaces gear well before 10 years and even my little podunk volly FD replaces gear on a shorter schedule than that. Seems a shame your metro career FD is so lax on that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    MOST states are Osha states. Some have adopted Nfpa standards,some more than others. FEW have adopted them all.So if you are an Osha state,you should have no issues with a N5a.it's Osha compliant. IF you happen to be in one of the others perhaps a N6a would be a better choice. T.C.
    The OP wasn't even asking about an N5A, he was asking about a G5A which is a presentation helmet and is not to be used for fire ground work.

    Wisconsin has adopted the NFPA standards pertaining to turn out gear, including helmets so there is no choice here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The OP wasn't even asking about an N5A, he was asking about a G5A which is a presentation helmet and is not to be used for fire ground work.

    Wisconsin has adopted the NFPA standards pertaining to turn out gear, including helmets so there is no choice here.
    I think Rescue101 was just stating two alternatives to the G5A. I don't think he was confused about about what the OP was asking.

    It's like if one person asks, "Do you have any gum," to which another person replies, "I have candy bars and lollipops." The second person isn't confused about what the first person asked. There's an implied "I don't have any gum, but..." in his answer, which he left out because he thought it would be clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The OP wasn't even asking about an N5A, he was asking about a G5A which is a presentation helmet and is not to be used for fire ground work.

    Wisconsin has adopted the NFPA standards pertaining to turn out gear, including helmets so there is no choice here.
    Point being, people wore 5A helmets for years before the new standards and plenty of them are still alive and well today. Now dont try to say that if thats the case why don't we go back to old gear all around. Reason is helmets havn't changed much. Impact caps, liners, all have been added but the helmet still does the same thing. No one can say that today's better gear provides the same gear as rubber coats and hip boots. They are apples and oranges.

    No one can deny that it seems NFPA is driven by the manufacterers. Make a new standard, everyone has to buy new gear. That pretty much sums it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    No one can deny that it seems NFPA is driven by the manufacterers.
    Of course they can. NFPA standards committees are intentionally designed to prevent any single special interest from monopolizing them. Manufacturers never control more than 1/3 of the voting seats -- usually less.

    All the stakeholders drive the process -- not just manufacturers.
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    Well...thanks all for your responses...I think my question was answered somewhere in there...lol...I was just trying to find out if the G5A would offer the same level of quality and protection as the old N5's. I have an N5A and I wear that all the time...I was just looking for something that was lighter for training, ect., where I need to have a helmet on but don't really need the highest level of impact protection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Point being, people wore 5A helmets for years before the new standards and plenty of them are still alive and well today. Now dont try to say that if thats the case why don't we go back to old gear all around. Reason is helmets havn't changed much. Impact caps, liners, all have been added but the helmet still does the same thing. No one can say that today's better gear provides the same gear as rubber coats and hip boots. They are apples and oranges.

    No one can deny that it seems NFPA is driven by the manufacterers. Make a new standard, everyone has to buy new gear. That pretty much sums it up.
    Point being, people wore long rubber coats, Cairns tin Senator helmets, 3/4 boots, fire ball gloves and filter masks for DECADES and many are around to still talk about it. How many of today's firefighters would switch their NFPA approved ensemble for that and still do the aggressive interior firefighting most of us advocate? My guess is not many, you included. Yet you post in support of a helmet that Cairns doesn't even manufacture anymore for field use. Of course guys are still alive that wore the old N5A without an impact cap, I am one of them. Would i go out and buy a new, or used one today to use? Not a chance. It doesn't meet the NFPA standard required by both of my fire departments AND the State of Wisconsin. Why would I put myself at risk during an accident/injury investigation by not wearing approved gear? Oh wait, I wouldn't.

    As I said previously, I couldn't care less what you do on your FD. It is not MY problem. The issue is chastising a guy like LA for his far out, bizarre ideas and opinions and then others blatantly telling people oh if you do this you can skirt the standards, or the standards are BS, or you outright say you just don"t have to follow NFPA because you have an issue with them.

    Golly, I guess I am confused, we all seem to want a national standard on TRAINING, but not one on protective gear. Yeah right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The OP wasn't even asking about an N5A, he was asking about a G5A which is a presentation helmet and is not to be used for fire ground work.

    Wisconsin has adopted the NFPA standards pertaining to turn out gear, including helmets so there is no choice here.
    I'm aware the CURRENT G5 is presentation. But wasn't the Earlier version New Yorker(legal at the time) ALSO a G5? Really can't remember. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Of course they can. NFPA standards committees are intentionally designed to prevent any single special interest from monopolizing them. Manufacturers never control more than 1/3 of the voting seats -- usually less.

    All the stakeholders drive the process -- not just manufacturers.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Ask Pro Tech how well that worked for them when Total Fire Group (AKA Total Fire Crap) got their gloves "un compliant." If you search it on here there are some great threads on it.
    Last edited by MassFireGuy; 10-16-2010 at 05:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    My career FD's policy states quite clearly that you will wear issued NFPA approved PPE, to include the helmet, OR you may purchase your own helmet if it is on the approved list and it meets current NFPA standards. I guess as far as PPE goes they do care that you wear NFPA approved gear.

    Like I said, I don't care what any of the rest of you wear, hell go back to 3/4 boots, long rubber coats, fireball gloves, filter masks, and the old tin Senator helmets if it makes you happy. As for me, in this litiginous society and understanding the political climate of today I wll wear my NFPA approved PPE, to include my helmet.

    By the way, if you are still wearing 10 year old turnouts your Union Health and safety committee has HUGELY dropped the ball. My career FD replaces gear well before 10 years and even my little podunk volly FD replaces gear on a shorter schedule than that. Seems a shame your metro career FD is so lax on that.
    I said , "if". Just trying to make a point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Ask Pro Tech how well that worked for them when Total Fire Group (AKA Total Fire Crap) got their gloves "un compliant." If you search it on here there are some great threads on it.
    The search function here is almost useless but that's moot considering that most ProTech gloves are currently NFPA compliant again. What's your point?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    The search function here is almost useless but that's moot considering that most ProTech gloves are currently NFPA compliant again. What's your point?
    My point? If it wasn't clear to you (You must really be a Deputy) is that the NFPA decisions are influenced by manufactures especially Total Fire Group. That is why the NFPA is a joke.

    I find it funny that they are located one city away from us and everyone in these parts basically ignore them for the joke that they are. But go on to feel free that they are this infallible plethora of knowledge and honor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    My point? If it wasn't clear to you (You must really be a Deputy) is that the NFPA decisions are influenced by manufactures especially Total Fire Group. That is why the NFPA is a joke.
    Lame. Is that the best you can do?

    "Influenced" isn't "controlled." No manufacturer or manufacturer interest (since TFG isn't a manufacturer) can control any NFPA committee. If anything, the issue with Pro Tech gloves and the 2004 edition of NFPA 1971 is a good example of manufacturer interests not controlling NFPA policy and standards.

    I find it funny that they are located one city away from us and everyone in these parts basically ignore them for the joke that they are.
    I wouldn't be so happy about being inbred, if I were you, but that's your choice.

    But go on to feel free that they are this infallible plethora of knowledge and honor.
    Nobody ever claimed that they were infallible but thier peer consensus system is certainly better than putting on blinders and doing everything your own way and ignoring the experience of the rest of the fire service world. There's just nothing like "200 Years of Tradition Unhampered by Progress" is there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Lame. Is that the best you can do?

    "Influenced" isn't "controlled." No manufacturer or manufacturer interest (since TFG isn't a manufacturer) can control any NFPA committee. If anything, the issue with Pro Tech gloves and the 2004 edition of NFPA 1971 is a good example of manufacturer interests not controlling NFPA policy and standards.



    I wouldn't be so happy about being inbred, if I were you, but that's your choice.



    Nobody ever claimed that they were infallible but thier peer consensus system is certainly better than putting on blinders and doing everything your own way and ignoring the experience of the rest of the fire service world. There's just nothing like "200 Years of Tradition Unhampered by Progress" is there?
    Must be hard to be so naive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    Must be hard to be so naive.
    You would know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    You would know.
    Like I'm talking to my three year old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MassFireGuy View Post
    Like I'm talking to my three year old.
    Assuming he's actually yours, it's a pity you reproduced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Assuming he's actually yours, it's a pity you reproduced.
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