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    Default Video Shot by Ga. Firefighter Angers Crash Victim's Family

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-he...victims-family

    Is this another wake up call and yet another reason to ban any pictures and videos taken at scenes? Hopefully the firefighter did violate a written policy so he can be FIRED. And what a disgrace the other members are for passing this video around at a local bar, which ended up being sent to the victim's family.

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    Wow, this is really sad for the parents and to think that someday her children might see it. It's nothing new though...reminiscent of all the bloody, gory footage from driver education courses.
    Last edited by Lisa2000GT; 10-18-2010 at 01:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by erics99 View Post
    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-he...victims-family

    Is this another wake up call and yet another reason to ban any pictures and videos taken at scenes? Hopefully the firefighter did violate a written policy so he can be FIRED. And what a disgrace the other members are for passing this video around at a local bar, which ended up being sent to the victim's family.
    Immediate dismissal of both firefighters. The one who originally shot the video and the one who shared it in the bar.

    I think a case could easily be made for a violation of patient privacy, maybe even a HIPPA violation since they shared pictures and dicscussed the victim with others besides emergency responders.

    The behvaior of these 2 firefighters is despicable.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-01-2010 at 02:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa2000GT View Post
    Wow, this is really sad for the parents and to think that someday her children might see it. It's nothing new though...reminiscent of all the bloody, gory footage from driver education courses.
    Really? You see this as a comparison to that? A local firefighter takes a video of a dead local victim and then shares it with people and you see that no differently than a driver's ed video?

    If I were her parents I would be looking for a VERY GOOD lawyer and suing those firefighters and the fire department and the county for invasion of privacy and a possible HIPPA violation.

    There is simply no excuse for this behavior. There is no practical training usage of it and if that was their excuse it is entirely blown when they share it with the public.
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    Taking that video for critique and training, fine. Sending it out to all your buddies and exhibitting at the local bar, totally unacceptable and I'd punch him myself for being such a idiot. If you can't control your SEND button, then keep the phone in your pocket.
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    Well, this is totaly out of line. We do in fact have written policies against using cell phones on scene to take pictures or video.

    That being said, I don't know if it could be a HIPPA violation. The article didn't mention if they said her name or any other personal info in the video.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Taking that video for critique and training, fine. Sending it out to all your buddies and exhibitting at the local bar, totally unacceptable and I'd punch him myself for being such a idiot. If you can't control your SEND button, then keep the phone in your pocket.
    I hear you on the training video, but disagree.

    We don't need to video or shoot any fatal scenes.

    The jokers that did this should be dismissed. I only wish there was a criminal violation that covered this activity... official misconduct??? Something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Really? You see this as a comparison to that? A local firefighter takes a video of a dead local victim and then shares it with people and you see that no differently than a driver's ed video?

    If I were her parents I would be looking for a VERY GOOD lawyer and suing those firefighters and the fire department and the county for invasion of privacy and a possible HIPPA violation.

    There is simply no excuse for this behavior. There is no practical training usage of it and if that was their excuse it is entirely blown when they share it with the public.
    Yes and no. I am in no way excusing the actions of those firefighters. I don't advocate what they did. But taking footage at crash or fire scenes is nothing new, that's all I stated. I understand from the necessity to document for investigation, for anything further I don't like. I don't know that the 'dead' victims from the 1960s in "Mechanized Death" and such 'shock' documentaries have been any more or less disrespected than this victim, just that stuff gets around a lot more and a lot faster in today's technology.

    Passing such video around at a bar...insensitive, stupid, crass, unprofessional, ...you name it...just plain WRONG, I agree. Apparently, according to news reports, not illegal.
    Last edited by Lisa2000GT; 10-18-2010 at 02:28 PM.
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    This is why, sad as it is, we need to have policies in place before stupid crap like this stuff happens. Short of an official policy, these idiots probably can't be disciplined at the level this calls for.

    I like something along the lines of this: "Any picture, video, audio or media of anytime recorded at the scene of any incident where the recording member is considered on duty or covered by the city in any manner, including allowance to be within the work zone, is the property of the XXX FD. Any dissemination or showing of this media without the express permission of the Fire Chief is prohibited." Basically you shoot, I own it. If you're anything but a bystander, your video is the property of the Dept. for which you are working. I'd further recommend that dissemination of images and videos of any emergency scene by individuals is potentially grounds for conduct unbecoming. We generally are trusted more the LEO's, this type of BS serves only to diminish the publics' trust.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 10-18-2010 at 02:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    That being said, I don't know if it could be a HIPPA violation. The article didn't mention if they said her name or any other personal info in the video.
    One of the misconceptions about HIPPA is that a violation has to include a name. The main criteria is the inclusion of ANY personally identifiable information.

    If the video showed a dead female passenger in her early 20's in a 1995 yellow Ford Mustang (car info purely hypothetical here), then that can easily be enough to be used to clearly identify the victim.

    Not a legal analysis by any means, but just a thought to keep in mind. It takes a lot less than a name to identify somebody in a picture or a video.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Really? You see this as a comparison to that? A local firefighter takes a video of a dead local victim and then shares it with people and you see that no differently than a driver's ed video?

    If I were her parents I would be looking for a VERY GOOD lawyer and suing those firefighters and the fire department and the county for invasion of privacy and a possible HIPPA violation.

    There is simply no excuse for this behavior. There is no practical training usage of it and if that was their excuse it is entirely blown when they share it with the public.

    I am in no way saying that this is acceptable, but I do NOT think this would be a HIPAA violation. Many people have misinterpreted HIPAA, it actually only applies to services that bill insurance companies. So if your fire department does not bill for medical calls, then you are exempt from HIPAA. There very well may be other patient privacy laws in effect in your local though.
    Last edited by blaster668; 10-18-2010 at 03:54 PM.

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    Angry People never cease to amaze me

    I've seen plenty of pictures of serious accidents sent between fire & EMS folks just to share the "holy $#%&" factor... but they generally don't include people and they certainly don't involve video of fatalities where the person with the camera solicits help so they can better record the gore that they're looking at!

    I think someone should drop the hammer on these guys. Even without a department policy against cameras (very hard to enforce in 2010), it is most certainly conduct unbecoming... But even as important as the discipline, I think these guys need counseling.

    There is a sometimes an emotional disconnect between firemen and the people we serve -- and there has to be (to a certain degree) for our own mental health. But when you have members who are doing their best to get all of the gore recorded on video and then they share with members of the general public -- you're dealing with people who are in a very unhealthy place mentally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If I were her parents I would be looking for a VERY GOOD lawyer and suing those firefighters and the fire department and the county for invasion of privacy and a possible HIPPA violation.
    100% HIPPA violation. A captain at Palm Beach County was fired last year for taking pics of people at a MVC and putting them on, I believe, Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    This is why, sad as it is, we need to have policies in place before stupid crap like this stuff happens. Short of an official policy, these idiots probably can't be disciplined at the level this calls for.
    The moron who took and then shared the video can be disciplined under HIPPA. He can then be sued civilly by the family. The guy who showed it at the bar will probably just get another piece of paper in his file since he didn't actually take the video.
    If your going to cry about doing the job you signed up for do us all a favor and quit, there are plenty of dedicated people standing in line for the best job in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemedic 61 View Post
    100% HIPPA violation. A captain at Palm Beach County was fired last year for taking pics of people at a MVC and putting them on, I believe, Facebook.



    The moron who took and then shared the video can be disciplined under HIPPA. He can then be sued civilly by the family. The guy who showed it at the bar will probably just get another piece of paper in his file since he didn't actually take the video.
    I would not say that with certainty..... HIPAA actually does not even apply to most firefighters.
    Last edited by blaster668; 10-18-2010 at 03:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    I would not say that with certainty..... HIPPA actually does not even apply to most firefighters.
    It does if they are providing medical care.
    If your going to cry about doing the job you signed up for do us all a favor and quit, there are plenty of dedicated people standing in line for the best job in the world.

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    That's a common misconception. For HIPAA to apply you must:

    1. Bill patients...
    2. ...through insurance companies or insurance clearinghouses...
    3. ...and you must do it electronically (that doesn't include fax, BTW)

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    Here Is more info on who is actually covered by HIPAA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    That's a common misconception. For HIPAA to apply you must:

    1. Bill patients...
    2. ...through insurance companies or insurance clearinghouses...
    3. ...and you must do it electronically (that doesn't include fax, BTW)
    Ok, looks like you got me. Down here 99.9% of fire departments run EMS transport so we are all governed by HIPPA, sometimes I forget no everyone does it to!
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    A local news site here solicits input from its followers - especially photos. If the guy who runs the site is on the ball, a picture of an event may be on line before responders even arrive.

    For a while, providers seemed to be sending some MVA pictures in, but the novelty mostly wore off. It was also pointed out to responders (as well as the news) that in many cases the victims may not have been pictured, but other identifying factors (including license plate numbers) were usually visible. That meant that a family member may receive "notification" that their loved one was involved in an accident before officials (or other family members) could contact them.

    With a heavily deployed military base in the area, the problem became that much larger, as deployed members could be seeing such images.

    If I have the time, I might shoot stuff for later reference in training, but you're not going to see it in a bar, or even on the web. That's what the news people do.
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    I couldn't find my last posting concerning HIPAA and video/picture taking. But to reiterate, it is against HIPAA's laws to record, or take pictures, of an individual without written permission. This also includes the deceased.

    Everybody pretty much has the basic HIPAA rules concerning the treatment of patient records according to their law. But, there is another law, a simple law.

    RIGHT OF PRIVACY !!!!!

    HIPAA is one of the laws that I would think you guys would respect and appreciate as it protects the rights of the individual’s privacy. Essentially, the law asserts that a patient’s right to privacy is still protected even if they are receiving emergency medical care in a public place. The patient’s right to privacy trumps the public’s right to videotape or take pictures. Just because you can’t find the text of the law that states that you cannot, then go ahead, by all means. Hopefully you have some deep pockets to pay the fines.

    Is it really that hard to remember it is "HIPAA", and not "HIPPA"???

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    This makes me very mad. Like said before, it is very sad to think we actually have to have policies against behavior like this. Like putting the words "CAUTION, HOT" on the side of a McDonalds coffee cup.

    The firefighter who took the pictures should be fired. The firefighter who spread the pictures to everyone should be just shy of being fired like suspension for several days.

    This is not only illegal but highly morally wrong and against everything a firefighter stands for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    I couldn't find my last posting concerning HIPAA and video/picture taking. But to reiterate, it is against HIPAA's laws to record, or take pictures, of an individual without written permission. This also includes the deceased.

    Everybody pretty much has the basic HIPAA rules concerning the treatment of patient records according to their law. But, there is another law, a simple law.

    RIGHT OF PRIVACY !!!!!

    HIPAA is one of the laws that I would think you guys would respect and appreciate as it protects the rights of the individualís privacy. Essentially, the law asserts that a patientís right to privacy is still protected even if they are receiving emergency medical care in a public place. The patientís right to privacy trumps the publicís right to videotape or take pictures. Just because you canít find the text of the law that states that you cannot, then go ahead, by all means. Hopefully you have some deep pockets to pay the fines.

    Is it really that hard to remember it is "HIPAA", and not "HIPPA"???

    FM1
    Please cite the law that prohibits a "non electronic billing" entity from taking pictures or releasing ANY patient information when in the public. I'm not saying it is moral or ethical, just in most cases it is not illegal. Now in a persons home, it is a very different situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    Please cite the law that prohibits a "non electronic billing" entity from taking pictures or releasing ANY patient information when in the public. I'm not saying it is moral or ethical, just in most cases it is not illegal. Now in a persons home, it is a very different situation.
    You do have me wondering how all this 'melds' with "no reasonable expectation of privacy" when something occurs in public.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemedic 61 View Post
    Ok, looks like you got me. Down here 99.9% of fire departments run EMS transport so we are all governed by HIPPA, sometimes I forget no everyone does it to!
    Im fairly sure that statistic is very inaccurate unless my departments and many I think of are in the .1%!

    Edit- I re-read your post and apologize I first read it without the "down here"

    That may be the case, but I still don't think it applies to HIPAA. Regardless of whether it does or not, swift actions from the department need to happen to both firefighters. As other firefighters and officers we need to be aware that many of our members now have this capability whether it be video on a cell phone or pictures on facebook and work to make sure this does not wind up continuing to happen!
    Last edited by SRLFD448; 10-19-2010 at 03:36 PM.

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    And yet the article plainly states:

    While investigators don't believe recording the video or sharing it broke any laws.....
    Is it distasteful? Sure, but fire someone for being distasteful and you'd have to fire the entire department.

    Sure, the parents are ****ed off, but anything that can be viewed from a public place can be photographed. Car crashes happen in public places.

    Not necessarily condoning this particular event, but that is the legality of it.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 10-19-2010 at 06:39 PM.
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