1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I believe that by the time you make the second room, the FDNY can put enough engine guys in the building to take a deep breath and starve the fire of oxygen! I'm sure a few brothers from FDNY can explain but unless I'm totally off base I think they've indicated they complete the vent unless otherwise directed. I'm thinking actual water on the fire makes a difference. Clearly coordination is key, and they seem to have that pretty well down to a science.
    horizontal ventilation is always done in coordination with hoseline operations....with the exception of venting for life....but yeah, VESing a room with a probable/possible victim, after that room is searched, (depending on fire conditions, building type, etc, which is why your portable radio is a listening tool), you havent completed the vent portion if you keep that door closed.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-03-2010 at 12:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    HMMMPHH....Ok, I think RFD cleared a few fuzzies up. I have a question pertaining to opening the door upon leaving...

    I have been taught to control the vent openings when possible. Approaching this tactic from the idea that heavy fire conditions are present somewhere near the room that was searched, opening the door upon exit would seem to create another path for fire spread rather than sticking to the principle of confinement. Find the fire, Confine the fire, Extinguish the fire...

    Opening the door (I think) would inevitably draw the fire that direction. Positive pressure ventilation not withstanding (meaning with no mechanical venting) this follows the teaching that you do not vent horizontally unless you have a line in place to begin suppression because the temperature curve may lessen briefly, then eventually the differences in high and low pressure zones and fuel/heat/oxygen ratios will optimize with the influx of fresh air and this, with the combination of hot gases will lead to a dramatic rise in temps and subsequent involvement of fire spread.

    Confused? I think if you open the door upon leaving then the fire and smoke will likely more into that compartment. Closing the door helps isolate that compartment from the fire and smoke. The open window will help ease conditions in that immediate compartment, not the entire structure. Or am I really missing something in thermal dynamics here?

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    The key is to corrdinate any ventalation efforts with hose line advancement. It is a balance of allowing air in and smoke and heat out. Any vent is going to cause the fire to grow. The key is to vent to allow to lift the heat and smoke just enough to allow the engine guy to make the push to the fire.

    When doing any kind of ventilation you have to look at the conditions and building, the advancement of the operation, and listen to the radio.

    I think the main difference here is the FDNY uses VES in corrdination with all of their other tactics. This allows them to leave the door open to allow for the vent.

    In many other parts of the country VES is a last ditch we have to search this room or a extreme circumstances case. In my mind the this is more of a break the window get in search and get back out type of search. However, it is not as cool to say on the radio as VES.

    Back to the orginal OP's question. I think it is best that you take the operation. Determine what you are trying to achieve. determine the steps need to be done to complete it. Then divide the task between the two firefighters.

    I would urge caution about using "VES" tactics hap-hazardly. This is a high risk high reward type of tactic. The firefighter must clearly understand fire behavior, building construction, and have experience to safely conduct it. Think about it for a min. You are entering through a confined opening into a room ahead of the fire, cut off with only one exit. Often times you are on the floor above the fire. Experience has proven to us that this is often the most dangerous place on the fireground.

    This is not to say that VES is not a valid or cowboy type of tactic. It just has to be understood on both the firefigther level and the department level.

  3. #28
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    That was a great link. I appreciate the response, too.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  4. #29
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    FF #1 goes into the room to search. FF #2 either stays at the tip or goes in too.

    If the smoke level is above the window sill and visibility is relatively good, FF #2 stays on the ladder. If the smoke level is below the window sill and visibility is poor, FF #2 goes into the room, but stays at the window to help keep FF #1 oriented either through voice or touch.

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