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  1. #21
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    If you dont re-open the door before leaving you only ESed.

    And in a lot of places its a standard tactic, not a last resort type of deal.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    Ok, I am alittle confused here on the terminology.

    Are we talking about VES or searching via entry through a window?

    here is a good article on VES

    https://www.myfirecompanies.com/down...=DownLoadFiles
    I'm confused, what do you consider to be the difference between VES and searching via entry through a window?

    ffmedcbk1-i am kinda taken back by the question..... does you dept do it with one or three guys?

    two guys is standard ves for us, second guy climbs up and monitors the window conditions and keeps voice contact with interior ff. we typically only butt the ladder if on a hard surface (concrete/asphalt).
    In the article RFD21C posted it talks about one person VES, thats where my original question originated from.

  3. #23
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    In my mind VES is a search that is a one room search. Then out the window and move down the exterior to the next window/room.

    A search using a window as your point of entry would be firefighter enters through a window and searches the entire occupancy.


    (hopefully one fo the FDNY guy can confirm or correct this)
    It is my understanding that VES was developed by the FDNY to address high fire death rates in queen anne style victorian houses. They noticed a high number of fire deaths in these types of buildings most of these deaths occurred in upper floor bedrooms. Since these style houses have pitched roofs the roof man would not be on the roof cutting (FDNY does not cut pitched roofs). In order to speed the search and provide for vertical ventilation. The roofman and later the OV man (after his duties are performed). Will preform VES.
    The search is speed up because now you have the inside team searching starting at the fire area and working there way out. Also now you have firefighters providing targeted searches in areas of high likely hood of a victim (I.e. A bedroom). Two groups of searches versus one.
    Upon exiting the room that has just been searched the door is re-opened. This provides for the Vent portion of the tactic. This was designed due to the large open stair cases, which would allow the smoke and heat to travel up from the first floor and collect on the upper floors. By taking the window and opening the door upon leaving you are creating a vent point high in the building.
    Over time the tactic has been bastartized by departments all over the company.

    This is what I have come to understand as the orgins of VES. maybe like i said above one of the FDNY guys can correct me on this. I am not from that area or am I huge FDNY buff. This is what i was taught many years ago in a college class I took, so my memory might be alittle foggy on the deatils.

  4. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
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    HMMMPHH....Ok, I think RFD cleared a few fuzzies up. I have a question pertaining to opening the door upon leaving...

    I have been taught to control the vent openings when possible. Approaching this tactic from the idea that heavy fire conditions are present somewhere near the room that was searched, opening the door upon exit would seem to create another path for fire spread rather than sticking to the principle of confinement. Find the fire, Confine the fire, Extinguish the fire...

    Opening the door (I think) would inevitably draw the fire that direction. Positive pressure ventilation not withstanding (meaning with no mechanical venting) this follows the teaching that you do not vent horizontally unless you have a line in place to begin suppression because the temperature curve may lessen briefly, then eventually the differences in high and low pressure zones and fuel/heat/oxygen ratios will optimize with the influx of fresh air and this, with the combination of hot gases will lead to a dramatic rise in temps and subsequent involvement of fire spread.

    Confused? I think if you open the door upon leaving then the fire and smoke will likely more into that compartment. Closing the door helps isolate that compartment from the fire and smoke. The open window will help ease conditions in that immediate compartment, not the entire structure. Or am I really missing something in thermal dynamics here?

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    Last edited by Fireeaterbob; 11-02-2010 at 07:06 PM. Reason: additions. Mis-spellings
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    I believe that by the time you make the second room, the FDNY can put enough engine guys in the building to take a deep breath and starve the fire of oxygen! I'm sure a few brothers from FDNY can explain but unless I'm totally off base I think they've indicated they complete the vent unless otherwise directed. I'm thinking actual water on the fire makes a difference. Clearly coordination is key, and they seem to have that pretty well down to a science.

  6. #26
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I believe that by the time you make the second room, the FDNY can put enough engine guys in the building to take a deep breath and starve the fire of oxygen! I'm sure a few brothers from FDNY can explain but unless I'm totally off base I think they've indicated they complete the vent unless otherwise directed. I'm thinking actual water on the fire makes a difference. Clearly coordination is key, and they seem to have that pretty well down to a science.
    horizontal ventilation is always done in coordination with hoseline operations....with the exception of venting for life....but yeah, VESing a room with a probable/possible victim, after that room is searched, (depending on fire conditions, building type, etc, which is why your portable radio is a listening tool), you havent completed the vent portion if you keep that door closed.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-03-2010 at 12:09 AM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    HMMMPHH....Ok, I think RFD cleared a few fuzzies up. I have a question pertaining to opening the door upon leaving...

    I have been taught to control the vent openings when possible. Approaching this tactic from the idea that heavy fire conditions are present somewhere near the room that was searched, opening the door upon exit would seem to create another path for fire spread rather than sticking to the principle of confinement. Find the fire, Confine the fire, Extinguish the fire...

    Opening the door (I think) would inevitably draw the fire that direction. Positive pressure ventilation not withstanding (meaning with no mechanical venting) this follows the teaching that you do not vent horizontally unless you have a line in place to begin suppression because the temperature curve may lessen briefly, then eventually the differences in high and low pressure zones and fuel/heat/oxygen ratios will optimize with the influx of fresh air and this, with the combination of hot gases will lead to a dramatic rise in temps and subsequent involvement of fire spread.

    Confused? I think if you open the door upon leaving then the fire and smoke will likely more into that compartment. Closing the door helps isolate that compartment from the fire and smoke. The open window will help ease conditions in that immediate compartment, not the entire structure. Or am I really missing something in thermal dynamics here?

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    The key is to corrdinate any ventalation efforts with hose line advancement. It is a balance of allowing air in and smoke and heat out. Any vent is going to cause the fire to grow. The key is to vent to allow to lift the heat and smoke just enough to allow the engine guy to make the push to the fire.

    When doing any kind of ventilation you have to look at the conditions and building, the advancement of the operation, and listen to the radio.

    I think the main difference here is the FDNY uses VES in corrdination with all of their other tactics. This allows them to leave the door open to allow for the vent.

    In many other parts of the country VES is a last ditch we have to search this room or a extreme circumstances case. In my mind the this is more of a break the window get in search and get back out type of search. However, it is not as cool to say on the radio as VES.

    Back to the orginal OP's question. I think it is best that you take the operation. Determine what you are trying to achieve. determine the steps need to be done to complete it. Then divide the task between the two firefighters.

    I would urge caution about using "VES" tactics hap-hazardly. This is a high risk high reward type of tactic. The firefighter must clearly understand fire behavior, building construction, and have experience to safely conduct it. Think about it for a min. You are entering through a confined opening into a room ahead of the fire, cut off with only one exit. Often times you are on the floor above the fire. Experience has proven to us that this is often the most dangerous place on the fireground.

    This is not to say that VES is not a valid or cowboy type of tactic. It just has to be understood on both the firefigther level and the department level.

  8. #28
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
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    That was a great link. I appreciate the response, too.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  9. #29
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    FF #1 goes into the room to search. FF #2 either stays at the tip or goes in too.

    If the smoke level is above the window sill and visibility is relatively good, FF #2 stays on the ladder. If the smoke level is below the window sill and visibility is poor, FF #2 goes into the room, but stays at the window to help keep FF #1 oriented either through voice or touch.

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