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    Default Two firefighter VES?

    For people who do VES with two firefighters, what does the second FF do. Do they stay at the foot of the ladder, do they go up the ladder in anticipation for a possible victim, etc...

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    i am kinda taken back by the question..... does you dept do it with one or three guys?

    two guys is standard ves for us, second guy climbs up and monitors the window conditions and keeps voice contact with interior ff. we typically only butt the ladder if on a hard surface (concrete/asphalt).
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    If performing VES with two FFs, the second FF will stay at the tip of the ladder. This way he can either be there to receive a victim, or come in and help if needed.
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    Tip of the ladder is the optimum position. FF2 shall monitor conditions of the interior, be prepared to assist with victim removal, enter the search area if needed, and stay in visual or voice contact with FF1 searching the interior. It is also noted that FF2 should be prepared to quickly dismount (get down and off) a ladder if FF1 is exiting the fire area because of worsening fire conditions (read into this "bail out"). Physical contact with FF1 may be maintained through the use of a tool, search rope, or a section of tubular webbing. (In practical terms, rope and webbing tend to wrap around furnishings and become more of a problem than a solution.)
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    Tip of the ladder is the optimum position. FF2 shall monitor conditions of the interior, be prepared to assist with victim removal, enter the search area if needed, and stay in visual or voice contact with FF1 searching the interior. It is also noted that FF2 should be prepared to quickly dismount (get down and off) a ladder if FF1 is exiting the fire area because of worsening fire conditions (read into this "bail out"). Physical contact with FF1 may be maintained through the use of a tool, search rope, or a section of tubular webbing. (In practical terms, rope and webbing tend to wrap around furnishings and become more of a problem than a solution.)
    What type of tool are you thinking about?? A 20ft pike pole?
    With my company, both enter. If only one enters and runs into trouble the other is standing on the ladder unaware his partner needs help. Possibly even injured.

    As far as assisting with a victim. If you can't get them to the window, you can't get them out. On the other hand...what if only one enters, finds a victim, and he's 2 feet from the stairs. Abandon the victim, find your way back to the window, tell your partner to get inside to help you, find your way back to the poor bastard you left before, then work to get him out. Hopefully before you run low on air and the civilian dies.

    Search rope can be used. Then both can follow it in and find your way out. Practice with it in the firehouse, and not just twice a year. When leaving, follow it to get out, but just leave it. You can worry about getting it after the fire.

    Just my thoughts here. Exchanging ideas.If you want to do it different, I'm not going to say you're wrong. I don't want this to end up like the helmet light question that almost got nasty.

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    Perhaps the best answer I should have given was "in my limited experience, this is what I was taught and this is why..."

    I've been trained both ways depending which Dept. or class I was working on.

    My experience is limited to VES in training situations.

    When we trained in a furnished environment the search rope tangled and snagged everywhere. More practice might have mitigated it.

    Two in, or one in one out...I've tried it both ways. I've heard arguments both ways. The arguments for either approach usually hinged on fire location, smoke conditions in the room, size of the room, and manpower available.

    And no, this will not become a helmet light fiasco... I learn each time ideas are put forward and I constantly review my approaches to use every bit of data I can absorb. If a sound argument exists for a particular approach, I'll investigate it, practice it and add it to the tactical toolbox in my head.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    The tool thing is to set a short hook/pike or haligan against the wall at the base of the window. A FF from the outside or inside can hold that position or tool and the other FF can use the tool as a point of contact as he/she stretches out from the other end to search. A three foot tool and a six foot FF sweeping out from the tool (foot or hand against the tool) can cover up to an eleven foot radius/area. An outside FF can reach in and hold the tool or pin it down with his/her own tool. Hey, just things I've seen, tried, been taught, ect. If you haven't seen it done, well, dont do it without practicing it. If it seems goofy to you, dont do it.

    Chief Jeff Pindleski had some good articles on search on Firehouse's website some time back. FE has some vids on training minutes. But most of the good stuff comes from taking classes and practicing this stuff.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    As far as assisting with a victim. If you can't get them to the window, you can't get them out. On the other hand...what if only one enters, finds a victim, and he's 2 feet from the stairs. Abandon the victim, find your way back to the window, tell your partner to get inside to help you, find your way back to the poor bastard you left before, then work to get him out. Hopefully before you run low on air and the civilian dies.

    .
    Hmmpph....Are we talking about searching a residential 10 x 12 room or a 20 x 20 office space? I'm in residental mode 90% of the time. Realistically, you likely would not be further than 6-8 ft from the partner. Visual or voice contact and tool or rope/web should get you quickly to him/her to assist in stair removal.

    Logic would say if you are gonna go in beyond that room then your gonna take your partner with you. I know I'm gonna be REAL vocal about my intentions (window or stair).

    Oh God, I can see this being quoted to pieces now....
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    Hmmpph....Are we talking about searching a residential 10 x 12 room or a 20 x 20 office space? I'm in residental mode 90% of the time. Realistically, you likely would not be further than 6-8 ft from the partner. Visual or voice contact and tool or rope/web should get you quickly to him/her to assist in stair removal.

    Logic would say if you are gonna go in beyond that room then your gonna take your partner with you. I know I'm gonna be REAL vocal about my intentions (window or stair).

    Oh God, I can see this being quoted to pieces now....
    I guess that was kind of vague. I also was thinking residential, 10 x 12 rooms, but doing a 3-5 room apartment. You can go 5-6 feet from a window and you're in another room. So, I feel continue the search of the entire unit. You're already in, do a complete search.

    I agree, try to maintain contact with your partner.

    You mentioned the rope issue. You also answered it yourself. You have to work with it to get comfortable and better.

    Quoted to pieces isn't all bad. If there are several ideas in a post, sometimes they have to be addressed one at a time.
    Last edited by len1582; 10-29-2010 at 06:28 PM.

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    SFD's we only put 1 FF in the room and the 2nd FF stays at the tip of the ladder with the TIC letting the FF know where the door is and other important things, if needed. We train to just sweep outside the door and that's it. You do only that room and then exit out the window and move to the next room via window again, letting the IC know if search was positive or negative and if they are moving on to the next window. MFD's or apartments are kind of different because most, atleast in my district have a sliding door into the living room so our search method if we choose to go this way is not considered VES, so we'll do a regular search of the apartment.

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    TRUCK61.... Do you have attached rowhouses? We have many and the only windows are front, back, and 2 or 3 that are in a light shaft between the buildings. The only way to do a complete search is go in and crawl room to room.

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    len, I think our terminology may be a little different. I'm in the midwest and what we consider a row house is essentially an attached SFD or it's also called a townhouse, so there is now common areas. What we consider MFD's or apartments has a common hallway on each floor but still we will usually use the front door to start searching unless like I said before we have to VES or there is some problem with entry so then the balcony or the bedroom will get laddered. The way we were taught VES was it's a single room search. Hope this clarifies things a little better.

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    Wow, learn something everyday...We have not practiced this with the TIC at the tip of the ladder. Tunnel vision, I guess, becuase we never thought to take the TIC up with us.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    Hi together,

    sorry, I do not know something about the VES tactic, so maybe my questions is supid.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCK61 View Post
    You do only that room and then exit out the window and move to the next room via window again, letting the IC know if search was positive or negative and if they are moving on to the next window.
    If you enter a room, why dou you not advance the search in the next room? For me it sounds pretty time consuming to leave the room, put the ladder to the next room and do it again. Moreover not all rooms have a window, so you search only rooms with a windows.


    Thanks for your feedback and best regards

    Florian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter Germany View Post
    Hi together,

    sorry, I do not know something about the VES tactic, so maybe my questions is supid.



    If you enter a room, why dou you not advance the search in the next room? For me it sounds pretty time consuming to leave the room, put the ladder to the next room and do it again. Moreover not all rooms have a window, so you search only rooms with a windows.


    Thanks for your feedback and best regards

    Florian
    VES is done to search either known victim locations, or areas where there is a high probability of a victim being located (most likely bedrooms). VES becomes the tactic of choice when your access to those areas is blocked for whatever reason, or when its quicker or easier to access them from the outside. You don't typically continue your search outside of the room (besides a quick sweep) because the conditions in the hallway may be untenable so you would want to get the bedroom door shut ASAP(you would start your VES closest to the fire room, unless you have a known victim location), and because you are focusing mainly on bedrooms (which should have windows)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter Germany View Post
    Hi together,

    sorry, I do not know something about the VES tactic, so maybe my questions is supid.



    If you enter a room, why dou you not advance the search in the next room? For me it sounds pretty time consuming to leave the room, put the ladder to the next room and do it again. Moreover not all rooms have a window, so you search only rooms with a windows.


    Thanks for your feedback and best regards

    Florian
    It is not a stupid question.
    If the front of a structure is heavily involved in fire or even more of the structure is involved BUT there are rooms that are still survivable but not accessable, or in danger of becoming unsurvivable then VES might be used.

    Vent, Enter, and Search is what VES means.

    Vent the compartment by breaking through the window and removing it completely.
    Enter the space and go to the door ingress/egress door (door to the hallway) in the room and CLOSE IT. This buys the search team time, and it helps prevent the open window from drawing the fire and smoke to the open window.

    Quickly search the compartment and get out. In some instances, you might check the door and see if you can advance further.

    Keep in mind that this is a HIGH RISK/HIGH REWARD tactic. If the open window draws the fire toward the search team or if the team cannot close off the room from other interior areas thus allowing the fire to over run them, then this becomes VERY dangerous. However, these are the places where survivable victims are likely to be found in advanced fire conditions.

    This tactic is used one room at a time to search for viable victims when the rest of the areas are not viable. Get in, get out, move to the next window and repeat. This is not a standard search, rather an option when all other options are diminishing.

    If a room doesn't have a window crews might breech an interior wall from one room to another to search a compartment rather than enter a hallway to go into the next room. This would be the case if the hallway was heavily involved in fire.
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    @Dibbs12
    @Fireeaterbob

    thanks for the good explination. What a like in the us tactics, that you are very focued on the targets (rescueing victims). You have a lot of small fire stations with a few apparatus to reach the incidients asap. You try to finde the victims asap by searching where they are, etc.


    Best regards

    Florian
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    Red face

    OOPPs, sorry Dibbs, I missed your explaination; Didn't mean to walk on your traffic there
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    OOPPs, sorry Dibbs, I missed your explaination; Didn't mean to walk on your traffic there
    No worries, the more explanations the better.

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    Ok, I am alittle confused here on the terminology.

    Are we talking about VES or searching via entry through a window?

    here is a good article on VES

    https://www.myfirecompanies.com/down...=DownLoadFiles

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    If you dont re-open the door before leaving you only ESed.

    And in a lot of places its a standard tactic, not a last resort type of deal.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    Ok, I am alittle confused here on the terminology.

    Are we talking about VES or searching via entry through a window?

    here is a good article on VES

    https://www.myfirecompanies.com/down...=DownLoadFiles
    I'm confused, what do you consider to be the difference between VES and searching via entry through a window?

    ffmedcbk1-i am kinda taken back by the question..... does you dept do it with one or three guys?

    two guys is standard ves for us, second guy climbs up and monitors the window conditions and keeps voice contact with interior ff. we typically only butt the ladder if on a hard surface (concrete/asphalt).
    In the article RFD21C posted it talks about one person VES, thats where my original question originated from.

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    In my mind VES is a search that is a one room search. Then out the window and move down the exterior to the next window/room.

    A search using a window as your point of entry would be firefighter enters through a window and searches the entire occupancy.


    (hopefully one fo the FDNY guy can confirm or correct this)
    It is my understanding that VES was developed by the FDNY to address high fire death rates in queen anne style victorian houses. They noticed a high number of fire deaths in these types of buildings most of these deaths occurred in upper floor bedrooms. Since these style houses have pitched roofs the roof man would not be on the roof cutting (FDNY does not cut pitched roofs). In order to speed the search and provide for vertical ventilation. The roofman and later the OV man (after his duties are performed). Will preform VES.
    The search is speed up because now you have the inside team searching starting at the fire area and working there way out. Also now you have firefighters providing targeted searches in areas of high likely hood of a victim (I.e. A bedroom). Two groups of searches versus one.
    Upon exiting the room that has just been searched the door is re-opened. This provides for the Vent portion of the tactic. This was designed due to the large open stair cases, which would allow the smoke and heat to travel up from the first floor and collect on the upper floors. By taking the window and opening the door upon leaving you are creating a vent point high in the building.
    Over time the tactic has been bastartized by departments all over the company.

    This is what I have come to understand as the orgins of VES. maybe like i said above one of the FDNY guys can correct me on this. I am not from that area or am I huge FDNY buff. This is what i was taught many years ago in a college class I took, so my memory might be alittle foggy on the deatils.

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    HMMMPHH....Ok, I think RFD cleared a few fuzzies up. I have a question pertaining to opening the door upon leaving...

    I have been taught to control the vent openings when possible. Approaching this tactic from the idea that heavy fire conditions are present somewhere near the room that was searched, opening the door upon exit would seem to create another path for fire spread rather than sticking to the principle of confinement. Find the fire, Confine the fire, Extinguish the fire...

    Opening the door (I think) would inevitably draw the fire that direction. Positive pressure ventilation not withstanding (meaning with no mechanical venting) this follows the teaching that you do not vent horizontally unless you have a line in place to begin suppression because the temperature curve may lessen briefly, then eventually the differences in high and low pressure zones and fuel/heat/oxygen ratios will optimize with the influx of fresh air and this, with the combination of hot gases will lead to a dramatic rise in temps and subsequent involvement of fire spread.

    Confused? I think if you open the door upon leaving then the fire and smoke will likely more into that compartment. Closing the door helps isolate that compartment from the fire and smoke. The open window will help ease conditions in that immediate compartment, not the entire structure. Or am I really missing something in thermal dynamics here?

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    Last edited by Fireeaterbob; 11-02-2010 at 07:06 PM. Reason: additions. Mis-spellings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    I believe that by the time you make the second room, the FDNY can put enough engine guys in the building to take a deep breath and starve the fire of oxygen! I'm sure a few brothers from FDNY can explain but unless I'm totally off base I think they've indicated they complete the vent unless otherwise directed. I'm thinking actual water on the fire makes a difference. Clearly coordination is key, and they seem to have that pretty well down to a science.

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