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  1. #1
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    Default Ind. Firefighter Suspended for Bar Room Arrest

    What are your thoughts on the incident/outcome ?

    How is the policy in your dept addressed on something of this nature?


    ooops... forgot to add the link

    http://www.firehouse.com/topic/polit...ar-room-arrest
    Last edited by Capt387; 10-28-2010 at 10:10 AM.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    What are your thoughts on the incident/outcome ?

    How is the policy in your dept addressed on something of this nature?
    Link?
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Link?
    Sorry... Thought I did....

    http://www.firehouse.com/topic/polit...ar-room-arrest
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  4. #4
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    From the article....

    Professional Fire Fighters Union of Indiana district president Robert Loviscek represented Musselman at the meeting. He said 30 days seemed "a little bit much," but Musselman said he was comfortable with the chief's recommendation.
    Seems like the union is fine with it.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    My department doesn't have a formal policy for such an incident. It would likely be handled as a stand-alone.

    A neighboring department was well known for suspending folks for a number of things, including doing something stupid (but not necessarily illegal) whilst wearing the department jacket.

    Given the circumstances regarding the pain relief medicine I'd be tempted to give the guy a pass, with a slap on the wrist. Then again, if those 30 days make others think about "reading the label" and consider such reactions, then maybe the purpose has been served.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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  6. #6
    Forum Member Jonnee's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    I think he got what he deserved as he should have received.

    Just because you are a firefighter or fireman, doesn't mean you can go into places and raise holy hell, if things don't suit you.

    Trying to pull the police officer weapon, was a big no no.

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    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    A little steep, maybe. But the fact that the individual accepted it and the union didn't make a fool out of itself defending his actions is refreshing.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    Trying to pull the police officer weapon, was a big no no.
    He is damn lucky.....Had he done that in Philly, he'd be lucky to make it to the ICU......Because he would probably be headed to the morgue.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  9. #9
    Forum Member eastcoastFF's Avatar
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    I am a union rep that has been tasked with defeding members for lesser crimes. I believe that this individual is lucky to have a job if he indeed went for a police officers weapon. If this was my town he would be dead. That being said, the incident may have been exaggerated. If their is medical documentation that the drug the FF was on could react with alcohol than I think the punishment could be reduced. If no evidence exists than I applaud the Departmetn for giving a member another chance.

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    What is your departments policy on reporting such an incident giving the situations:

    1. it happened out of state.
    2. charges were reduced to misdemeanors.
    3. it was precipitated because of prescribed drugs.
    4. he never lost his license.

    As long as he wasn't wearing a dept shirt, could he be held accountable for something that happened off duty?
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastcoastFF View Post
    If their is medical documentation that the drug the FF was on could react with alcohol than I think the punishment could be reduced.
    If there is medical documentation that the drug being perscribed could react with alcohol, then the fireman would have been made well aware of that by the person filling the Rx, the pharmacist handing over the Rx, on the pamphlet you recieve with the Rx, and plainly affixed with a sticker on the Rx....

    If there is medical documentation that the drug could react with alcohol and shouldn't be mixed with alcohol, if anything the punishment should be increased just for being plain stupid.

    At what point in time do we stop feeling sorry for ANY person doing STUPID crap?
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    My opinion is the punishment is fair. He is lucky he still has a job and didn't get shot or beat up by the police for going for the officer's weapon. That is a huge no no that usually is a self correcting error because you don't get a chance to do it a second time!

    In my department, it is a requirement for employment to maintain a WI driver's license. If you do something to get it suspended or revoked, you are suspended from duty until such time you get a valid license again.

    In my department, our SOG's state if you are arrested for any criminal activity, you are placed on administrative leave from duty pending the investigation and the resolution of the charges. If you are convicted of any charges, then they are subject to disciplinary action up to, and including termination. This is looked at on a case by case basis.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    What is your departments policy on reporting such an incident giving the situations:

    1. it happened out of state.

    Should not be a factor in my opinion, a crime is a crime, no matter where it happened. If there is a policy for a situation like this, it should be followed regardless of the location of the incident.

    2. charges were reduced to misdemeanors.

    Usually any charge would result in at least a review

    3. it was precipitated because of prescribed drugs.

    Wrong. It was precipitated because of alcohol.

    4. he never lost his license.

    That shouldn't really have anything to do with the case at hand.

    As long as he wasn't wearing a dept shirt, could he be held accountable for something that happened off duty?
    One question would be this: If you had an applicant who did the exact same thing, would you hire him? We are often sitting on a high horse when we tell people that ask questions about prior convictions, telling them that a black mark on their record means that they are not trustworthy. Does that change after a person is hired?

    The most important thing is that the firefighter, his union, and his employeer reached a solution that everybody agrees comfortable with.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Markus, you are correct on #3. I wrote it that way to see if anyone would see it that way. You are completely correct, if no alcohol had been consumed there wouldn't have been a problem to start with. My thing is I have seen PI's from my career dept never discussed even though it has to be reported. I can show you people that have been arrested and never a days suspension whatsoever. Public intx is still a misdemeanor and never dealt with. My thing is if you go to jail for whatever reason, a suspension should be in order. Medications, whatever they be, possible interactions should be the first thing asked as it doesn't have to be just alcohol that is the problem. A few yrs back I had a work place accident and the doctor prescribed neurontin for a issue I was having. While off I mistakenly forgot to take my night time dose one night so the next morning I took the nighttime dose and within 30 minutes I had to lay down. The meds at that level had such a sedating effect I could not function. I called the dr and advised him of my job issues and he kept me off work for 5 months over the med
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  15. #15
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    That being said, the incident may have been exaggerated. If their is medical documentation that the drug the FF was on could react with alcohol than I think the punishment could be reduced.
    This is the exact union excuse making bs I was alluding too. IF IF IF
    What IF personal responsibility stepped in? Examples; Not drinking to excess? Knowing how meds reacts? NOT trying for the cops gun? You know, silly things like this.....
    Better yet: what IF the cop shot the idiot dead for going after his weapon? 30 days doesn't seem so bad now, does it?
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 10-29-2010 at 10:06 AM.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    In my department, our SOG's state if you are arrested for any criminal activity, you are placed on administrative leave from duty pending the investigation and the resolution of the charges.
    I thought in your department the punishment was to be beaten with lutefisk?

    Sorry...forum drift.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber Chief_Roy's Avatar
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    We had a similar thing happen where one of our guys got arrested for getting in to a fight and wound up in jail overnight. He ended up with a couple of days off without pay.

    The issue I have with this topic are the cities that can and will suspend or terminate a person, even if the person is found not guilty. They say they can do this if the incident tarnishes the department's image. Maybe I'm still too stuck in my IAFF days, but if I were to get fired for something that a court ultimately found I didn't do, I'd be suing.

  18. #18
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    My opinion..

    Using the meds as an excuse is lame, even if there is some truth to it. If this firefighter is really a stand-up guy like his partners say he is then he would own his mistake. Drunkenness, however it comes to be, is never an excuse for poor behavior.

    Everyone screws up at one point or another. If there is no pattern of poor behavior then the dept. should give him a slap on the wrist and he should accept it, end of story.

    Trying to weasel his way out not only further tarnishes his image but it keeps the incident from just going away.

    BTW, where were his 'friends' when this was going on.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I thought in your department the punishment was to be beaten with lutefisk?

    Sorry...forum drift.
    Holy balls!! I choked on my lefsa laughing so hard!!!


    And you are half correct....the punishment isn't being beaten with lutefisk, you have to eat it!!!






    And we now continue with the normally scheduled thread....already in progress.
    Jason Knecht
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    Altoona Fire Dept.
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    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  20. #20
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    Blaming it on meds !!??.. WTF.. Lame excuse for crappy character as a person.

    Sounds like he is in denial that he is an *********.. even without the drugs or booze.

    Oh, that "going for the officers weapon" thingy?... hmmmm.. I would of seriously thought about shooting him... and I would of slept just fine with that decision. What if he managed to retrieve the weapon from the officers holster? Wow..

    He should of been $hit-canned .. period. Friggin' public menace.. NOT a firefighter

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