1. #76
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    So who should pay for the services of government?

    At the national level roads, security, defense and a host of other things are the services of government. Even the national parks (though I would support full privatization and the selling off of some assets) and a much more limited EPA.

    Providing a full range of services to folks unwilling to work or unable to work because of a series of bad choices on my dime is not a government's job. Taking care of kids and the elderly is, a a limited extent, but certainly not adults.

    The tax rate should be even for all incomes and no refunds or child credits.

    I would like to have a nickel for every time I've heard that from someone who fell on hard times and needed to collect unemployment or food stamps to help them get back on their feet. I could have retired years ago.


    On a couple of occasions, I could have used some of those "services" but didn't. I found a way.I have no issue with short term unemployment, but 99 weeks? Really? After about 26, they need to find a way.

    He's never said anyone has more money than they need. You've dissolved into fantasy. Please tell me what country has a higher standard of living with lower taxes that has as lax an immigration of the US. I'll move there.

    He sure did. "After all, how much money is enough?". And I have heard more than 1 liberal ask the same question or state "nobody needs to be that rich". Many of your kind truly believe that wealth is evil and that nobody should have that much money. They honestly believe that the poor and middle class have the right to the money of the rich.

    You must not believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ. I believe it is part of being a good citizen to pay taxes in order to ensure that society is protected, educated, able to conduct commerce to provide for those opportunities, and to provide a safety net for those who have fallen on hard times. Your belief is the typical IGM mindset that believes no one but yourself has provided for your opportunities. It ignores that no one has invaded our nation since the early 19th century, that the populace is educated (you may be one of the few that is private school educated), or that simple things like hot and cold running water exist, an adequate food supply exists, and the infrastructure to get it to market. I'm not surprised, you've never shown yourself to be much of a deep thinker.


    I actually do, however, that should be a voluntary thing. As a taxpayer, it's not my job to pay for the food, housing, medical care, utilities and now even cell phones of those in society who seem to think that it's perfectly acceptable not to work usually because of some BS "reason" or self-caused problem and live off my back. Sorry, that's not my job. And it sure ain't the responsibility of the rich. it's the responsibility of each person to do what they need to do to take care of themselves.

    As I said, kids and elderly, that's a different tune. But adults of working age, you're on your own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    At the national level roads, security, defense and a host of other things are the services of government. Even the national parks (though I would support full privatization and the selling off of some assets) and a much more limited EPA.
    So who should pay for the services of government? Here's a quote from from former OMB Director David Stockman:

    Two years after the crisis on Wall Street, it has been announced that bonuses this year will be $144 billion, the highest in history. That's who's going to get this tax cut on the top, you know, 2 percent of the population. They don't need a tax cut. They don't deserve it. And, therefore, what we have to do is focus on Main Street, and that means getting our house in order fiscally, not tax cuts that we can't afford.
    The group that caused this disaster are the ones you're defending. You're problem is you believe you're part of that group. The reality is they more than likely hate you and would kick you to the curb if it benefitted them.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Providing a full range of services to folks unwilling to work or unable to work because of a series of bad choices on my dime is not a government's job. Taking care of kids and the elderly is, a a limited extent, but certainly not adults.
    Making the assumption the opportunities are there. Where? Giving tax cuts to people who aren't hiring isn't going to cause them to hire anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The tax rate should be even for all incomes and no refunds or child credits.
    Funny. Which conservative is running on that platform for election? I didn't see one.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    On a couple of occasions, I could have used some of those "services" but didn't. I found a way.I have no issue with short term unemployment, but 99 weeks? Really? After about 26, they need to find a way.
    Got it. Socialism might be okay when it benefits you. Given your loathing for socialism, I'm sure you won't collect Social Security or Medicare when you're eligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    He sure did. "After all, how much money is enough?". And I have heard more than 1 liberal ask the same question or state "nobody needs to be that rich". Many of your kind truly believe that wealth is evil and that nobody should have that much money. They honestly believe that the poor and middle class have the right to the money of the rich.
    Which isn't what you quoted. And "more than one liberal" is not an exact quote from Obama. In some cases I would agree. Especially those individuals who have made millions contracting with the government. A great example. Staunch conservative Ross Perot founded EDS. Guess which customer made him a millionaire and started him on his way to wealth. A contract with the Social Security Administration. He's not alone. There are hundreds if not thousands of folks who got wealthy contracting for the government. All the ones I've met have one thing in common. They believe government spends too much except for the taxation that benefits them.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I actually do, however, that should be a voluntary thing. As a taxpayer, it's not my job to pay for the food, housing, medical care, utilities and now even cell phones of those in society who seem to think that it's perfectly acceptable not to work usually because of some BS "reason" or self-caused problem and live off my back. Sorry, that's not my job. And it sure ain't the responsibility of the rich. it's the responsibility of each person to do what they need to do to take care of themselves.
    It also isn't my job to pay for any number of things supported by conservatives. I pay my taxes and don't take deductions for those I don't believe should be deductible. What's your point? It's why we live in a representative republic.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I said, kids and elderly, that's a different tune. But adults of working age, you're on your own.
    Said like a true christian. You make the assumption none of those currently unemployed want to be employed. I don't believe that is the case.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-07-2010 at 01:56 PM.
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    I don't know about anyone else, but since Tuesdays election ,Gas prices here have risen 13 cents a gallon. That must be how the republicans are going to take care of the "WORKING " class folks

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    I don't know about anyone else, but since Tuesdays election ,Gas prices here have risen 13 cents a gallon. That must be how the republicans are going to take care of the "WORKING " class folks
    Actually that's pretty typical as supplies lower somewhat this time of ear as more crude is directed to the production of heating oil and some refineries make the switch to winter gasoline blends.

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    The group that caused this disaster are the ones you're defending. You're problem is you believe you're part of that group. The reality is they more than likely hate you and would kick you to the curb if it benefitted them.

    Ya, right.

    The problem was caused by the collapse of the housing market triggered by the simple fact that many folks who never should have gotten mortgages back in the 90's (thanks to legislation by Frank and Dodd to promote the "american dream" of home ownership to all) couldn't continue to pay them.

    Bottom line, there are folks that were never meant to own because they simply could never afford a house, howver the liberal dems didn't realize it and attempted to integrate them into the housing market.

    As far as your comments about bonuses - typical liberal crap. Folks should be able to earn whatever they can earn, and they should be allowed to keep it and spend it. Giving back a higher percentage than joe blow is simply unamerican.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ya, right.
    You should have stopped right there.

    What should or shouldn't have happened is not the issue. The reality is that it did happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as your comments about bonuses - typical liberal crap. Folks should be able to earn whatever they can earn, and they should be allowed to keep it and spend it. Giving back a higher percentage than joe blow is simply unamerican.
    Many of those receiving bonuses are able to do so because of taxpayer bailouts for their companies. While you can say you didn't approve of the bailouts, the reality is that hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars were used for that purpose. I'm sure they appreciate that thanks to you, they didn't lose their multi-million dollar a year jobs and appreciate it even more that you believe those taxpayer funded bonuses shouldn't be taxed at a higher level than the factory worker whose job got outsourced.

    BTW, did you notice the GOP backstroking on specifics when pressed for what programs are going to be cut to reduce the deficit?

    There's a word for folks like you....it's called.....SUCKER!!!
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-07-2010 at 05:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    I don't know about anyone else, but since Tuesdays election ,Gas prices here have risen 13 cents a gallon. That must be how the republicans are going to take care of the "WORKING " class folks
    Prices have been rising since before the elections.

    I guess your kidding.. ?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    It's still a socialist program as defined by the tea bag crowd. Funny how you don't see it that way.
    As I've said before, I'm not a tea party dude.

    You never know. Maybe you get hit by a drunk driver and end up driving a wheel chair with a straw in your teeth. LAFE believes churches will rush to your aid. Or your kidneys might shut down. Or a piece of plaque breaks loose and lodges in your head leaving you drooling in a cup. You would be wise to not believe in absolutes.
    No, I have purchased long term disability insurance and supplemental LTDI that pays 120% of my salary if I am "catastrophically disabled". Otherwise, its only 100%. This coverage is "portable", meaning it will follow me if I am no longer employed with my current employer.

    Also... if you have kidney failure, you get medicare in 3 months regardless of age.

    Like I said, it won't happen.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    As I've said before, I'm not a tea party dude.
    I wasn't replying to you. Does this mean you don't mind socialist programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    No, I have purchased long term disability insurance and supplemental LTDI that pays 120% of my salary if I am "catastrophically disabled". Otherwise, its only 100%. This coverage is "portable", meaning it will follow me if I am no longer employed with my current employer.

    Also... if you have kidney failure, you get medicare in 3 months regardless of age.
    How convenient you embrace a socialist program when it benefits you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Like I said, it won't happen.
    Famous last words.
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    Most of the companies that recieved bailouts have paid them back, in full, with interest.

    So I guess the CEOs that received the bonuses actually earned them. There were also CEOs of hundreds, if not thousands, of companies that received bonuses that didn't need to be bailed out. The fact is the companies that reward their CEOs often get the best CEOs, and often perform better than average. You do the job, you get a reward.

    What you do with that reward should be your choice, and nobody in the government should be saying we feel you have more money than you need, so you should be able to pay taxes at a higher rate.

    Again, why are the rich somehow responsible for subsidizing the lifestyle of the poor?

    As far as outsourcing the unions brought that on themselves. the idea that some high school dropout screwing on bolts on an auto assembly line was worth $27 an hour plus a very generous benefits package was going to catch up to us. And it has. Same with environmental requirements, hiring requirements and all the other crap that simply made it to expensive to make it in america.

    The folks who are out of work have, for the most part, the unions to blame for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I wasn't replying to you. Does this mean you don't mind socialist programs.

    How convenient you embrace a socialist program when it benefits you.

    Famous last words.
    When did insurance that I pay for become a socialist program????

    Daylight savings time messing with your head?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    When did insurance that I pay for become a socialist program????
    You didn't.

    Right here you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Also... if you have kidney failure, you get medicare in 3 months regardless of age.
    Medicare is a socialist program.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of the companies that recieved bailouts have paid them back, in full, with interest.
    So you now believe it was a good thing to bail them out?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, why are the rich somehow responsible for subsidizing the lifestyle of the poor?
    Are you going to tell us? I never said any such thing. I'll turn it back on you. Why should I pay taxes so that someone can make millions off a government contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as outsourcing the unions brought that on themselves. the idea that some high school dropout screwing on bolts on an auto assembly line was worth $27 an hour plus a very generous benefits package was going to catch up to us. And it has. Same with environmental requirements, hiring requirements and all the other crap that simply made it to expensive to make it in america.
    Keep thinking that. The reality that manufacturers were making crappy cars might be a factor. I know that doesn't square with your narrow minded perspective on organized labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The folks who are out of work have, for the most part, the unions to blame for that.
    Does that include all the mortgage brokers and others in the financial community? Or the non-union construction workers in the housing industry working for lower than union scale? Which union had them as members?

    Yet another fantasy statement with no supporting evidence.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-08-2010 at 01:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Medicare is a socialist program.
    Gotcha. Yes, it is.

    However, My private insurance would cover it. Only in the event of some catastrophic event in my life would I use medicare...

    Is it a "socialist" program. I guess you could say that.

    I'm not opposed to welfare, but I am opposed to the way it is administered now.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post

    However, My private insurance would cover it. Only in the event of some catastrophic event in my life would I use medicare...
    Don't tell that to LAFE, he believes he shouldn't have to subsidize your misfortune. Churches will take care of you via donations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Is it a "socialist" program. I guess you could say that.
    As do many conservatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I'm not opposed to welfare, but I am opposed to the way it is administered now.
    Agreed.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    I would like to state my opinion and it is my opinion only.

    If a company received a bailout I think the executive officers should be under some restrictions of salaries and bonuses until the bailout is paid back in full. If they are as good as they are suppose to be they should be able to do it. If there is no bailout, Ford for example, they should not be any restrictions by the government. Is Gates, Murdock, Jobs, Dreyfus or Buffet under any restrictions of salary? Of course those people are well past receiving salaries or bonuses.

    Second, wellfare and unemployment are not a bad thing, but as ChiefKN said it is how they are run. I believe if you receive welfare/unemployment you should not be allowed to sit at home. They should be required to get out and do something. Pick up trash, dig a ditch, cut trees, paint government buildings or anything besides getting a free pass. But not all week, they should have some time to look for a job or at least the unemployment office should place them in jobs that are posted in the office. Also welfare should be for a limited time not a life style.

    Third, fuel prices around here did not go up until the day after the elections. They not necessarily dropped before the election, but did stay steady. On Wednesday they jumped $0.35. But that is not any different than any other election cycle.

    Last, SC I would venture to say you are a young guy. Myself I am far from retirement. I wonder when you are 65 if you will be singing a different tune about Medicare? My insurance runs about $1400 a month right now. What will it be in 30 years? I have seen many people with good careers, established good retirements (for the time they retired, say late 70s early 80s) get crippled with the health care costs even with Medicare. I do not have a solution for this other than it is not the insurance industries fault. It is the healthcare industries fault. If you think different, why is there two different charges for services, one if you have insurance and one if you don't. Again I really do not know a solution for this problem and I bet no one can show a modern country that is not having a problem with this.

    I am interested to hear anyone's opinion on how any of these problems could be solved.

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    Cool Oil Prices

    The Saudis like to keep the oil price around $80 a barrel. See the article below. It has recently crept up to $88/barrel. They think at $80 it gives them a good return on their reserves and it keeps the price at a range where the US cannot afford to exploit our reserves. Most oil fields only produce about 30% of the oil in the ground. To get more requires more expensive secondary recovery methods, such as steam, CO2 or chemical injection. Plus all the oil shale and coal gasification would cost much more per gallon.
    When oil went to $150 a barrel and gas at $4.00/gal. at the pump a couple of years ago, all the old wells in our part of the country started pumping again. When the price went back down they stopped. So the Saudis want to keep us on the energy tit. Who said those Bedouin tribesman were born yesterday.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...08-703329.html

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    Here is a tax question for the libs on here.

    Would it be right for men to be taxed at a higher rate than women? Would it be right to tax blacks more than whites? How about we raise taxes on deaf people?

    I think we know the answer. Our current tax system is just as discriminatory. No other system in our country allows one group of people to be treated differently than another, yet it is so easy for the Democrats to sell the notion of envy and class warfare.

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    Now for the economy. The truth is, there is very little the government can actually do to make an economy grow. I always laugh when I hear of a President or governor creating jobs, or being credited with saving an economy. The economy operates in cycles, always has and always will, and whoever is in office at the time will get the credit or the blame regardless.

    However, politicians do have the power to hurt the economy. Over taxation, burdensome regulation, and big government are all things politicians have control over, and are all things that can drive down business. That is what we have been seeing as of recent. Businesses have cut back investments and hiring while waiting to see what the Obama administration will do next. Healthcare, bailouts, stimulus funding, has all made business very nervous as they don't know what will be forced on them next or what it will cost. The result is a business atmosphere that is very timid, and a damper put on the whole economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    Here is a tax question for the libs on here.

    Would it be right for men to be taxed at a higher rate than women? Would it be right to tax blacks more than whites? How about we raise taxes on deaf people?

    I think we know the answer. Our current tax system is just as discriminatory. No other system in our country allows one group of people to be treated differently than another, yet it is so easy for the Democrats to sell the notion of envy and class warfare.
    Please...for the love of all humanity...STFU.

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    Looks like a lot of the Republicans in the Senate are already fighting back against a proposal to limit pork, fighting to keep the earmarks instead of sending a message that they are serious about cutting the deficit.

    Of course Inhofe is from my state, doesn't surprise me that he is fighting this. How he can be such an exact opposite of our other senator (Coburn) on the issue of pork is amazing.

    But I can agree with one issue about this bill. It should apply to all senators, Republicans and Democrats alike, even though the GOP can use this as a message that they are serious about their stand. Who cares if the Democrats decide to earmark like crazy, that would be more fire for the Republicans in 2012.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Please...for the love of all humanity...STFU.
    Nice rebuttal. As I was saying, it is not legal to treat different races, sex, etc. differently, but we can treat people differently based on wages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    Nice rebuttal. As I was saying, it is not legal to treat different races, sex, etc. differently, but we can treat people differently based on wages.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusKspn View Post
    Looks like a lot of the Republicans in the Senate are already fighting back against a proposal to limit pork, fighting to keep the earmarks instead of sending a message that they are serious about cutting the deficit.

    Of course Inhofe is from my state, doesn't surprise me that he is fighting this. How he can be such an exact opposite of our other senator (Coburn) on the issue of pork is amazing.

    But I can agree with one issue about this bill. It should apply to all senators, Republicans and Democrats alike, even though the GOP can use this as a message that they are serious about their stand. Who cares if the Democrats decide to earmark like crazy, that would be more fire for the Republicans in 2012.
    If the Republicans don't actually act in the best interest of the citizenry, and act in the manner that the electorate wants they will deserve to get booted out of "control" in 2012.

    Cut the federal budget, get the ridiculous programs, save money, shrink the size and redundancy of the government and its agencies, and act in our best interest.

    Otherwise, your "power" will be curtailed. It happened to the Dems this year because the forgot what got them elected, and did not do what they were elected to do. They did not do what they said they were going to do and just kept spending money just like the Republicans did in 2006.

    Do your job, be fair, and don't be stupid and you get to keep your job. Act like a bunch of morons and you get your arse handed to you on a platter.

    Remember, many politicians retired due to illness this year. The voters got sick of them.
    Last edited by DaSharkie; 11-14-2010 at 11:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Remember, many politicians retired due to illness this year. The voters got sick of them.
    Now that will be my favorite quote of the year.

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