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  1. #1
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    Default Need help with UREA

    Most of you know UREA is the exaust fluid for most 2010 diesel motors. Now my dept is looking at getting a new pumper and from what I hear the UREA can be a nightmare. Im in Minnesota so I get to do with it jelling up in winter if filled a bit to full or if tank heater fails. Plus we like most dont have a dept full of mechanics so to make sure this gets done and added is a problem I can fore see.

    My Q is, is there anyway to get around using this with staying with a 2010 motor and not going gas?

    Thanks


  2. #2
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    I'm going to throw a lot of acronyms out there, so let me know if any of this is confusing.

    If you're trying to avoid the use of urea altogether, you have three options: get a 2007-emissions compliant diesel motor (who's availability are getting smaller and smaller every day), go gas (ugh!), or look at the the Navistar MaxxForce series of motors.

    To be compliant with 2010 EPA regulations, all of the manufacturers who wish to comply are using use selective catalytic reduction (SCR) with the exception of Navistar, who's MaxxForce motors are using exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). The SCR requires diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) which is urea.

    At this time, the only custom-chassis you can purchase with the MaxxForce (no urea) is KME. Otherwise, you're going to be stuck with the DEF (urea), the extra tank, the extra cooling chamber, and the additional maintenance. That being said, there is little maintenance other than topping off the DEF tank every few hundred miles. The hardware that goes along with the DEF system does require some additional space, however.

    You don't need a mechanic to add DEF, it's as easy as putting fuel in the vehicle.

    I've seen some anecdotal evidence that the DEF is good to -20, but I don't know how accurate the figure is.

    This link might provide you with some additional information.
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    Here is what just read in a set of specs for a 2011 pumper with a Cummins.

    The 6 gal. DEF fluid tank is located beside the battery compartment and is heated by the engine cooling system.

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    From what I have read, the Navistar MaxxForce will only be a 1yr or so thing because they have gotten around the laws by using their emissions credits. Eventually, they will have to comply as well. The Navistar engines seem to only be offered in the lower horsepower versions from apparatus builders. However, these engines do have loads of torque.

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    Red face Urea

    If 10 years ago someone had told me we'd be dumping Cow P#ss in our trucks to pass emissions, I'd have bet you a $1,000 that you were out of your flippen mind. I'm glad to be retiring in a few years. The world has gone mad!

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    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    The MaxxForce-13 is available up to 475HP with 1700 lb/ft.

    As for the credits, while I know that some manufacturers have used credits in the past, I'm not sure that this applies to the MaxxForce series. KME spent a lot of bucks to get their cab certified for heat and airflow for the MaxxForce engines, which leads me to believe that the EGR for this series isn't a temporary thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93Cobra View Post
    From what I have read, the Navistar MaxxForce will only be a 1yr or so thing because they have gotten around the laws by using their emissions credits. Eventually, they will have to comply as well. The Navistar engines seem to only be offered in the lower horsepower versions from apparatus builders. However, these engines do have loads of torque.
    An item yesterday in one of the trucking trade press web sites has it that Navistar now claims that their engines will be in compliance without using credits. They are presently preparing their submission to EPA for certification.

  8. #8
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    Talking

    Also the Maxforce 9-13 engines are a joint design with MANN diesel engines from Germany. They have had tighter emissions for years over in Europe.
    We had a factory engineer at a recent fire conference who explained how their Advanced EGR system worked to avoid the Urea system and still comply with 2010 emissions stds.

    I see Navistar positioning themselves for the long term over the road market , including emergency service applications.

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    Something tells me the guy who thought up these emission laws that require use of this urea was tricked too many times into trying to fill the exhaust fluid on the truck. Practical jokes can come back to haunt us.

  10. #10
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93Cobra View Post
    From what I have read, the Navistar MaxxForce will only be a 1yr or so thing because they have gotten around the laws by using their emissions credits. Eventually, they will have to comply as well. The Navistar engines seem to only be offered in the lower horsepower versions from apparatus builders. However, these engines do have loads of torque.
    Better go EXPAND your horizons.Your information on Navistar is NOT correct. AND Navistar and Cat are currently working in partnerhip to produce a big block 15 liter high Hp engine along with a couple other choices. They are approved technology for the NEXT 2010 PLUS standards,tested AND approved.



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    Home > Magazine Features > Navistar Caterpillar Alliance To Expand Commercial Truck Offerings

    Navistar Caterpillar Alliance To Expand Commercial Truck Offerings
    April 13, 2009
    From the April, 2009 issue of Truck Trend
    By Benson Kong
    The developing partnership between Caterpillar and Navistar has both companies set to increase their presence within the commercial trucking industry in the very near future. Last year, the two companies announced a joint venture on a Caterpillar-branded work truck, which was assumed to be limited to severe-service applications. Recently announced was that, alongside the aforementioned severe-service Cat truck, Navistar and Caterpillar will be working on a full line of Cat-branded trucks that combine Navistar's International-brand chassis and MaxxForce engines with proprietary Caterpillar components, including automatic transmissions and cooling systems. The new line will be sold by Caterpillar dealers in North America.

    The move toward a new full line of trucks coincides with Caterpillar's departure from the U.S. and Canadian on-highway engine business in 2010, due to the upcoming diesel emissions standards.

    The upcoming truck lineup will feature three available Cat-branded powerplants: 11L, 13L, and 15L diesel engines, which are expected to be used in International trucks as well. The 11L and 13L engines were jointly developed by Navistar with MAN of Germany and are currently being developed to meet 2010 emissions standards. The 15L engine is a Caterpillar-based unit and combines the Cat C15 block with Navistar's fuel and emissions systems. The trucks will be built at Navistar's plant in Garland, Texas, where International severe-service trucks are currently manufactured. The first models are scheduled for introduction in late 2010, with full production commencing in 2011. With Caterpillar's core business being in the construction field, the new lineup is expected to fare well.

    Navistar and Caterpillar's joint work will not be limited to North America. Global markets, including but not limited to Australia, Brazil, China, India, South Africa, and Turkey, have been identified as locations where Navistar and Caterpillar are looking to insert new commercial trucks, under Cat and International brand names. Conventional and cab-over-engine designs will be available, with initial availability as early as the third quarter of 2009. Branding will depend on the marketing strategy per region.

    The international venture will be of special value to Navistar. Despite a strong presence in North America's medium- and heavy-duty truck markets, its only significant global presence includes a joint venture with Mahindra & Mahindra of India and another venture building engines for the Brazilian market. Caterpillar, on the other hand, currently holds an established international dealer network for construction equipment, which Navistar can utilize.

    Still up in the air is the status of Cat's heavy-duty hydraulics. The development of full truck and body combinations integrating Cat's hydraulics knowledge, including garbage and dump trucks, remains yet to be seen.


    Source: FleetOwner



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    T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 11-05-2010 at 06:58 PM.

  11. #11
    Forum Member dragonfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93Cobra View Post
    From what I have read, the Navistar MaxxForce will only be a 1yr or so thing because they have gotten around the laws by using their emissions credits. Eventually, they will have to comply as well. The Navistar engines seem to only be offered in the lower horsepower versions from apparatus builders. However, these engines do have loads of torque.
    You are correct, they will be running out shortly. It is not a temporary thing as someone else mentioned.

    I'm in the medium duty truck business and have spoken with International dealers in my area. They have not heard any updates from Navistar on a new engine.

    When the credits run out, so do the engines.
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    Thanks for the insight but looks like we will all be stuck in the future. I did find some 09 engines to put in a 2010 truck but for the rest of my fleet????

    I can not believe that no one on the fire side wasnt able to pull an a coat tail hard enuf to let the fire service be exempt from this. I fear many fire depts having alot of problems over the next years.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonfyre View Post
    You are correct, they will be running out shortly. It is not a temporary thing as someone else mentioned.

    I'm in the medium duty truck business and have spoken with International dealers in my area. They have not heard any updates from Navistar on a new engine.

    When the credits run out, so do the engines.
    The 15 liter is due out in 2011 along with a revised version of the 11 and 13 liter versions. It remains ti be seen what will happen with these Platforms. i wouldn't count then out YET. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 11-05-2010 at 09:51 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    Something tells me the guy who thought up these emission laws that require use of this urea was tricked too many times into trying to fill the exhaust fluid on the truck. Practical jokes can come back to haunt us.
    No, someone in the emissions business owns a COW farm. Really the stuff is synthesized but it sounds better the other way. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonfyre View Post
    You are correct, they will be running out shortly. It is not a temporary thing as someone else mentioned.

    I'm in the medium duty truck business and have spoken with International dealers in my area. They have not heard any updates from Navistar on a new engine.

    When the credits run out, so do the engines.
    From "Fleet Owner Newsline," 11/4/2010

    "Navistar says engines can meet emissions standard without credits"

    By Brian Straight, Managing Editor

    "When Navistar announced it was going to meet the Environmental Protection Agencyís 2010 emissions mandate with Advanced EGR technology, many said it couldnít be done without using emissions credits. The company's first engines certified to comply with the 2010 standards did use credits, but now the company says it's ready to certify engines that satisfy the requirement without credits."

    I expect to be at International's "Emergency Vehicle Advisory Group" meeting next week. I'll see if I can learn anything more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh FFD View Post
    Thanks for the insight but looks like we will all be stuck in the future. I did find some 09 engines to put in a 2010 truck but for the rest of my fleet????

    I can not believe that no one on the fire side wasnt able to pull an a coat tail hard enuf to let the fire service be exempt from this. I fear many fire depts having alot of problems over the next years.
    We are having similar issues with snow equipment purchases for the airport. These trucks are considered off road, but the market for large high power diesel engines is not large enough to support two different engines, one on road, one off road. That is why everyone is getting stuck with these junk engines. We can all thank our clueless politicians and the environmental lobby for destroying the large truck engine market.

  17. #17
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    The DEF solution isn't that bad. The consumption rate is small. The heat put out by the engines is substantially less than that of the IH motors, and in fact the "word" is that with the DEF being injected into the exhaust, Cummins and others can gain more horsepower and torque by doing some things that dirty up the exhaust stream a little.

    The fuel gauge in the instrument cluster will also have a DEF gauge. I trust the most inept operator to be able to tell when the DEF tank needs to be filled.

    Even if something fails in the heating of the DEF tank, the lack of DEF being injected isn't going to immediately cause the engine to downgrade horsepower or shut down.

    Yes, it's an inconvenience when you consider that we didn't have to do this before. Yes, it'll be an additional cost that we didn't pay for before. But I don't think that its a doomsday scenario that a lot of people make it out to be. If you spill the stuff it dries leaving a nice white powdery substance. It doesn't like some metals, and will tarnish that metals appearance if exposed. That's the worst I've heard of the stuff.

    I'm a fan of the IH product, and would be happy to sell you one if you wanted under a fire apparatus, just as much as I would love to sell you a Freightliner if you want that. My own little experience with IH? They're real slow with production right now and getting chassis delivered. Is it because they're so busy? Or are they intentionally slowing down the release of these motors until they have things figured out to not need credits? I could have a Freightliner (or anyone else using a Cummins or Paccar motor - yes I know its a rebadged Cummins) considerably faster than an IH.

    Or call me. We still have some '07 compliant ISLs that I could sell you in a Spartan. <---No, I can't sell to him. Wrong state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    The DEF solution isn't that bad. The consumption rate is small. The heat put out by the engines is substantially less than that of the IH motors, and in fact the "word" is that with the DEF being injected into the exhaust, Cummins and others can gain more horsepower and torque by doing some things that dirty up the exhaust stream a little.

    The fuel gauge in the instrument cluster will also have a DEF gauge. I trust the most inept operator to be able to tell when the DEF tank needs to be filled.

    Even if something fails in the heating of the DEF tank, the lack of DEF being injected isn't going to immediately cause the engine to downgrade horsepower or shut down.

    Yes, it's an inconvenience when you consider that we didn't have to do this before. Yes, it'll be an additional cost that we didn't pay for before. But I don't think that its a doomsday scenario that a lot of people make it out to be. If you spill the stuff it dries leaving a nice white powdery substance. It doesn't like some metals, and will tarnish that metals appearance if exposed. That's the worst I've heard of the stuff.

    I'm a fan of the IH product, and would be happy to sell you one if you wanted under a fire apparatus, just as much as I would love to sell you a Freightliner if you want that. My own little experience with IH? They're real slow with production right now and getting chassis delivered. Is it because they're so busy? Or are they intentionally slowing down the release of these motors until they have things figured out to not need credits? I could have a Freightliner (or anyone else using a Cummins or Paccar motor - yes I know its a rebadged Cummins) considerably faster than an IH.

    Or call me. We still have some '07 compliant ISLs that I could sell you in a Spartan. <---No, I can't sell to him. Wrong state.
    The PROBLEM with DPF isn't the FLUID itself,it's all the rest of the CRAP that goes with it. SCR in CARS started in 1982,it's now CLOSE to 2012 and they are JUST getting the cars figured out and the efficiency up. So how's that TRUCK system looking now? TOO much technology being hung WITHOUT proper testing in ALL operating arena's,in MY opinion. Give these systems about 5 years of FS use,you guys will see what I'm talking about. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    It doesn't like some metals, and will tarnish that metals appearance if exposed. That's the worst I've heard of the stuff.
    IH.
    That is the problem. We are being forced to add saltwater to the exhaust system. Tell me how long you can go before having to replace exhaust components that have rusted out.

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    Default Cummins

    It is a promotional thing put out by Cummins, but I think it might be worth 15 minutes of your time.

    http://cumminsengines.com/every/appl...iew_fire.page?

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