1. #1
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    Default 30 minute vs 45 minute bottle?

    Our department is purchasing new bottles. We are in discussions between 30 minute and 45 minute bottles. I am looking for what the new trend everyone is going to. Does anyone have any solid literature on pros and cons between the two.

    I personally think we should be using the 45 minute bottle. Due to the possibility of firefighter survival if it were ever needed!

    Thanks in advance for everyone's input. I hope for a good discussion!!

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    How about some additional info.

    How much do you have earmarked for the project?
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    I am trying to find hard facts, I don't want politics to be an issue at this point. But we all know that down the road it ends up being a factor!

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokinfire21 View Post
    I am trying to find hard facts, I don't want politics to be an issue at this point. But we all know that down the road it ends up being a factor!
    We may be able to give you some hard facts, if we know what type of department you have, type of runs, and the funds you are talking about spending.

    As PK asked, answer that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    We may be able to give you some hard facts, if we know what type of department you have, type of runs, and the funds you are talking about spending.

    As PK asked, answer that.
    Jonnee: I guess I need to watch how I ask questions.

    I get the feeling he thought I was attacking him.



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    Dont worry Im not one of those sensative type of guys that are on here!!

    It's a small town department that runs 200 calls a year. We mutual aid a pretty big saburban department alot. That has alot of industrial and some 3+ story buildings. The department is possibly talking about a RIT team down the road. I personally would like to see a combined RIT team with this other department.

    We now have 2216 bottles.

    Thanks

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    We are looking at MSA. There are 12 packs total but I don't know the exact amount of money allowed to spend yet. We also will have to upgrade the cascade system.

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    If you run a lot of mutual aid with big brother down the road, why not spec what they have? Makes RIC a lot easier when all the holes line up.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    If you run a lot of mutual aid with big brother down the road, why not spec what they have? Makes RIC a lot easier when all the holes line up.
    Exactly.... What he said /\ /\ /\ /\
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinKnight View Post
    Jonnee: I guess I need to watch how I ask questions.

    I get the feeling he thought I was attacking him.



    Do I seem unreasonable, cranky, overbearing and down-right mean to you?




















    Don't take too long to think about this... I want an answer..... today!
    Nah,You seem.................SEASONED! Hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokinfire21 View Post
    It's a small town department that runs 200 calls a year.
    30 minute bottle.

    Unless you are the rare department with an amazing number of fit guys, go with the lighter weight and practice good air management.

    Most guys are only good for about 15 minutes of interior firefighting (you know, when you are really working).

    Then they should get out and take a blow.

    What's the number one killer?

    Have a 45 minute bottle in a bag for your rit team.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Did I hear something to the effect that the next No Firefighter Practical Application spec will require 45 min. cylinders?

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    First of all they are 1200 and 1800 liter bottles. Based on a resting breathing rate of 40 liters per minute is how they get the 30 min and 45 min times. During hard work you can breathe up to 300 liters per minute. In a 1200 liter bottle when down to your last 25% or low air warning alarm that is how much you have left, with an 1800 liter bottle you will have 600 liters left at your low air warning, with 1200 for entry, work and exit without having to use your reserve, aka low air warning air. In effect you have the same amount you use in the 1200 and still have air in case something would happen. As far as the 2400 liter "60" minute bottle the weight trades off the air and you exert and breath the rate of a 1200. All this to say go with the "45" min bottle. This is basic Rules of air management that the Seattle Brothers came out with. Makes good sense and is to protect us. Put a 60 in your RIT pack.

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    I agree, Go with the 45 minute cylinder. You can never have enough air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokinfire21 View Post
    I personally think we should be using the 45 minute bottle. Due to the possibility of firefighter survival if it were ever needed!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle77
    I agree, Go with the 45 minute cylinder. You can never have enough air.
    Here is the question that cannot be answered, but you both have obviously not considered:

    How many guys having 50% more air will work longer, due to the fact that they still have air, and get themselves into trouble due to the fact.

    If a guy overloads himself because his entire career he has been conditioned to work for his supply rate of a 30 minute bottle. Now he goes beyond that, gets into trouble, and still does not have "extra" air in his bottle.

    My vote would be to stay with lighter, lower profile 30 minute bottles. If you need more air, you have to come outside and take a mandatory swap your bottle break.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Here is the question that cannot be answered, but you both have obviously not considered:

    How many guys having 50% more air will work longer, due to the fact that they still have air, and get themselves into trouble due to the fact.

    If a guy overloads himself because his entire career he has been conditioned to work for his supply rate of a 30 minute bottle. Now he goes beyond that, gets into trouble, and still does not have "extra" air in his bottle.

    My vote would be to stay with lighter, lower profile 30 minute bottles. If you need more air, you have to come outside and take a mandatory swap your bottle break.
    About 22 years ago we looked into upgrading our scba's from the old steel tank, low pressure, 30 minute unit units. We knew of 1 hour bottles at the time, but not 45 minutes as they were not being used by anyone at the time except one department, which was FDNY. FDNY wanted a true 30 minute bottle, and as an end product in their study the 45 bottle was made. The bottle was lighter, and carried 67.6 CF of air vs 45 in the 30 minute bottle.

    The brackets on our apparatus at the time were for the old 30 minute bottles. We found the new composite 30 minute bottles were smaller and would have required modifying or replacing the brackets on our engines and truck companies. Whereas the 45 minute bottle is the same size as the old bottle but lighter, and contains more air. We opted for the 45 minute bottles.

    Over the years we have replaced our old units with new ones, but have stayed with the 45 minute units. Even our RIC packs carry 45's rather than hour units. They work for us. I agree with Memphis in regards to weight, keeping it light, and the 30 is smaller in profile, but I dont agree opting for a unit that is slightly smaller and weighs just a few lbs less is a better trade off for the extra breathing air, but thats just my opinion.

    In using the 45's for over 20 years, the unit has been a fit for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle77 View Post
    I agree, Go with the 45 minute cylinder. You can never have enough air.
    Right, so wear two 45 minute cylinders.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Right, so wear two 45 minute cylinders.
    The way some of these fat basterds breathe, that's not a bad idea. You could make a snow cone out of all the ice built up on the first stage regulator.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    If you run a lot of mutual aid with big brother down the road, why not spec what they have? Makes RIC a lot easier when all the holes line up.
    Damn right. Snowball's spot on.


    Again.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Here is the question that cannot be answered, but you both have obviously not considered:

    How many guys having 50% more air will work longer, due to the fact that they still have air, and get themselves into trouble due to the fact.

    If a guy overloads himself because his entire career he has been conditioned to work for his supply rate of a 30 minute bottle. Now he goes beyond that, gets into trouble, and still does not have "extra" air in his bottle.

    My vote would be to stay with lighter, lower profile 30 minute bottles. If you need more air, you have to come outside and take a mandatory swap your bottle break.
    For where I work, the 45 min cylinder works perfectly for us. There isn't another city in this country that is as complex as ours when it comes to the different types of buildings and challenges we face with them. The question you just asked can also be applied to wearing 3/4 boots vs full turnout gear. It really comes down to whatever works for the your department. In a city/town with the majority of structures being single family homes, a 45 min may not be necessary. They are going to have to do their own research to see what works best for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Right, so wear two 45 minute cylinders.
    I guess you could if your a BIG man.. What size cylinders does your volley house use?

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    45 minutes aren't exactly battleship anchors.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle77 View Post
    For where I work, the 45 min cylinder works perfectly for us. There isn't another city in this country that is as complex as ours when it comes to the different types of buildings and challenges we face with them. The question you just asked can also be applied to wearing 3/4 boots vs full turnout gear. It really comes down to whatever works for the your department. In a city/town with the majority of structures being single family homes, a 45 min may not be necessary. They are going to have to do their own research to see what works best for them.
    I agree. 3 and 4 story center hall stuff, wharehouse type office occupancies. A guy can get in pretty deep before he knows it. Might need that extra few cubic inches to get out or God forbid, wait for help. I can see the need in certain areas.
    IAFF

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    Default Bottles

    I'll make it easier for you. Buy the 30 minute bottles as they are lighter and who can bust their ***** for more than at thirty minutes. You can also have a few of the larger bottles for extended fire reach. That's what we did at Long Beach Fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    I'll make it easier for you. Buy the 30 minute bottles as they are lighter and who can bust their ***** for more than at thirty minutes. You can also have a few of the larger bottles for extended fire reach. That's what we did at Long Beach Fire.
    See, Problem solved..

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