Front Bumper Speedlays ??

[BoxAlarm187]

Far too many engine drivers and officers already lack the discipline or sense to pull past the house on fire. This simple tactic leaves room open for the truck and actually makes the stretch easier, but it is overlooked because we have to line the hose up with the front door.

How about those of us that routinely have 500'+ approaches down rural driveways, don't have a truck within 20 miles, and are typcially nosing-in to most of our occupancies? The front bumper pre-connects might not be the answer for all, but making a blanket statement about how they advocate poor engine company tactics isn't fair either.

Plumb them with 2.5" to the front bumper, no worries about the FL. How do I know? At work, we run a 2.5" front bumper discharge to a 150' 1.75" crosslay for interior attack on the small homes with about a 15' setback from the curb...and we're easily maintaining a 150gpm flow on it.

And I have to agree with the the brother about attempting lay in while backing up a 500' driveway....

[MemphisE34a]

I'll edit my setiments to include "in urban settings".

[BlitzfireSolo]

Here's a second (or third) vote for the donut roll pre-connects (nice pics, Adam!) and for 2 1/2"-3" plumbing to the bumper.

Memphis:
In addition to the other reasons mentioned (long driveways, no truck co, etc) for bumper attack lines, I'd counter your statement by saying that they're the perfect complement to a good attack line setup in the rear bed. In our district, at least half of the time the truck company is going to be responding from the opposite direction, and a lot of the streets are narrow. If we pull past the building in those situations, we're actually blocking out the truck. Having both front and rear attack lines allows the flexibility for either condition.

[RFDACM02]

Far too many engine drivers and officers already lack the discipline or sense to pull past the house on fire. This simple tactic leaves room open for the truck and actually makes the stretch easier, but it is overlooked because we have to line the hose up with the front door.

While I agree with the common misplacement issue, I'd favor a policy backed by personnel who understand and follow such basic tactics.

[ChiefKN]

We put a line on the bumper for car fires, pure and simple. We are often restricted by the NJSP on the interstate to operating in one lane or 2 lanes. So to flake out a crosslay may not work well.

For all other attacks, I don't know that I buy into the fact that a line coming off the side will set you back in your fire attack.

[FyredUp]

I'm with MemphisE34a on tactics and use of the bumper lines. They should be used for quick attack, quick extinguishment of a fire. Cars, trash, etc. They should never be used as an interior line. The friction loss of using a bumper line is doubled compared to using a crosslay of the same size. JMHO.

FM1

The friction loss is double? Absolute nonsense. The problem is not many people know how to spec piping for preconnects. We spec performance not pipe size. We set the performance for our 2 bumper lay 2 inch lines at a flow of at least 300 gpm each at no more than 20 psi friction loss. Guess what? The manufacturer exceeded our spec.

The system works very well for us and frankly since we have no truck, and both of our engines carry truck equipment, we don't need to leave room for a truck company.

[FIREMECH1]

The friction loss is double? Absolute nonsense..

Easy big guy, it was just a number to throw out there while posting. Mistake on my behalf, yes.

Is there a measurable difference from running a crosslay compared to a bumper line of the same size. YES.

FM1

[LittleJoe7197]

Our newest 4Guys engine has dual crosslays in the bumper. The swivel is underneath-otherwise it would get in the way of stretching to one side or the other. The troughs are partly in the bumper, and partly on top- so they sit on the frame rails. The piping is between the frame members. I'm not sure what size pipe is used though.

Can you post some pictures?

[ffp20]

Easy big guy, it was just a number to throw out there while posting. Mistake on my behalf, yes.

Is there a measurable difference from running a crosslay compared to a bumper line of the same size. YES.

FM1

On our units with 2 bumper preconnects, the only 90 degree bend is the swivel. the other 2 bends in the line are 45's (the one directing flow down from the valve, and the other directing the flow forward under the cab). the FL is negligible, and the gpm is slightly less than the crosslays, (less than 5 gpm difference). In other words, its plumbed right.

[Bones42]

We have a 90 on the front line which is a swivel.

All 3 of our crosslays have a 90, which is a swivel also.


I'll run the flow meter, cuz you have me curious. But I'm betting on FL difference between front and crosslays is really going to be minimal. We'll see....

[FyredUp]

Easy big guy, it was just a number to throw out there while posting. Mistake on my behalf, yes.

Is there a measurable difference from running a crosslay compared to a bumper line of the same size. YES.

FM1

Sorry, but you couldn't possibly be more wrong. There is no difference IF YOU SPEC IT RIGHT. We specced our front bumper crosslays to flow EXACTLY the same as the over the pump crosslays. Minimum of 300 gpm with no more than 20 psi friction loss in the piping. And they both flwo what our spec calls for. Imagine that?

People run into trouble when they spec pipe size and not performance. You could spec 2 1/2 inch pipe for crosslays and have the manufacturer put in so many bends and elbows you gain nothing in performance. If you spec 300 gpm at no more than 20 psi friction loss it is up to the engineers to figure out how to make it work. Not for you to go after the purchse to say "Well they put in what we asked for, but it doesn't work."

Funny how people buying a piece of fire apparatus will spend all day writing performance specs for engines, transmissions, pumps, foam systems, generators, and lights...but not one second seriously thinking about performance for flow through preconnects and front and rear discharges. I say SHAME on salespeople for not asking what people expect to flow through those lines, and not what size pipe they want.

[FyredUp]

Here's a second (or third) vote for the donut roll pre-connects (nice pics, Adam!) and for 2 1/2"-3" plumbing to the bumper.

Speccing a particular pipe size does not guarantee the performance you desire. If you set a performance spec it is up to the manufacturer to meet it. You can spec 2 1/2 pipe and not come anywhere near what you want depending on how it is plumbed.

[Rescue101]

I'm with MemphisE34a on tactics and use of the bumper lines. They should be used for quick attack, quick extinguishment of a fire. Cars, trash, etc. They should never be used as an interior line. The friction loss of using a bumper line is doubled compared to using a crosslay of the same size. JMHO.

FM1

Oh Contrare. We've used ours on a few occasions for such a purpose. But it was PLUMBED as a heavy hit line. Goes back to that pesky speccing thing. T.C.

[FyredUp]

Funny how Chicago can plumb an LDH discharge to the front of their engines, and so many can plumb 2 1/2, 3 or even LDH off the back of their engines, but a 300 gpm handline to the front bumper simply is nearly impossible. Golly,
what about all those rigs with front bumper master streams? How do they do it?

Once again, it is SIMPLE. Write the spec to say it MUST be done and write a performance spec for the builder to meet. If one builder can't or won't do it there are plenty of fish in the apparatus builder sea that will.

When we specced our front bumper crosslays the spec was crystal clear. We even sent 200 feet of our hose to the factory so they could make sure it fit. We specced flow and assumed that their engineering staff would figure it our. Guess what they did and it works perfectly. Two 200 foot 2 inch lines that flow 300 gpm each at actually less than 20 psi internal friction loss.

Finally if your new engine doesn't do what it was supposed to by spec...DON'T ACCEPT IT. It really is that simple.

[Nozzle nut 22]

Can you post some pictures?

Sadly, I am a computer idjit, and never figured out how to do this...

I won't be home for a couple of weeks yet, but there is a picture of this truck on our website. it's basically a "baby picture" but you can see the crosslays I'm talking about. Best way to find us is thru the Monroe County Fire Wire site, and look for the dept websites.

[FIREMECH1]

Oh Contrare. We've used ours on a few occasions for such a purpose. But it was PLUMBED as a heavy hit line. Goes back to that pseky speccing thing. T.C.

The red section is my point. Reread what I posted FyredUp. Or better yet... is your bumper line piping THE SAME SIZE PIPING AS YOUR CROSSLAYS???? That is my point. Not that you spec'd it differently as needed.

We have 2 Pierce rigs with bumper lines piped the SAME SIZE as the crosslays. The loss is enough that the crews are NOT ALLOWED to use them as an interior attack line. PERIOD!!!!

So you get this straight, WE didn't order or spec them. They were adopted as that town was annexed by the City.

FM1

[FyredUp]

The red section is my point. Reread what I posted FyredUp. Or better yet... is your bumper line piping THE SAME SIZE PIPING AS YOUR CROSSLAYS???? That is my point. Not that you spec'd it differently as needed.

We have 2 Pierce rigs with bumper lines piped the SAME SIZE as the crosslays. The loss is enough that the crews are NOT ALLOWED to use them as an interior attack line. PERIOD!!!!

So you get this straight, WE didn't order or spec them. They were adopted as that town was annexed by the City.

FM1

I haven't a clue whether the piping is the same size or not. I will have to take a look next time I am at the FD. To be honest I couldn't care less what size the pipe is since we had a PERFORMANCE spec, not a pipe size spec. We told them the flow we wanted and expected them to figure out how to build it. They have ENGINEERS to figure out what it takes to meet the PERFORMANCE we wanted. Honestly I think anybody that writes a spec quoting pipe since instead of performance is really doing theor fire department a HUGE disservice.

And perhaps if you had said that in YOUR specific instance, engines that were poorly specced, have front bumper lines that were plumbed incorrectly and have friction losses twice that of your crosslays, there would have been no confusion as to what you meant.

I see 3 possible scenarios as to why those engines are plumbed as they are:

1) The spec committee said we want a front bumper pre-connect so lets plumb it the same as the crosslays so we get the same water. (Incorrect thinking)

2) We need a trash line off the front that flows 100 gpm or less for nuisance fires. (Short sited thinking, but not necessarily wrong.)

3) The salesman didn't know any better so he went along with what the FD wanted. (Possible and shameful if true.)

[SFD_E73_RET]

The red section is my point. Reread what I posted FyredUp. Or better yet... is your bumper line piping THE SAME SIZE PIPING AS YOUR CROSSLAYS???? That is my point. Not that you spec'd it differently as needed.

We have 2 Pierce rigs with bumper lines piped the SAME SIZE as the crosslays. The loss is enough that the crews are NOT ALLOWED to use them as an interior attack line. PERIOD!!!!

So you get this straight, WE didn't order or spec them. They were adopted as that town was annexed by the City.

FM1

It's a shame you stuck with two Pierces

Why don't you just pump the front lines at more pressure to compensate the loss? It ain't that hard.

Not trying to start anything BTW.

[Rescue101]

I'm with MemphisE34a on tactics and use of the bumper lines. They should be used for quick attack, quick extinguishment of a fire. Cars, trash, etc. They should never be used as an interior line. The friction loss of using a bumper line is doubled compared to using a crosslay of the same size. JMHO.

FM1

Hello? FM1 does ANY of this look FAMILIAR? BTW,this is NOT my statement,I'm QUITE sure it's YOURS. I don't know how stuff is done in YOUR neck of the woods,but HERE bumper lines are SPECCED to FLOW,they aren't glorified booster lines. Much like Fyred's,we have very little loss in our front line. They CAN be used for ANY attack that you might care to pull them for. Two of the rigs have Vindicators on the bumper lines. FWIW T.C.

[RFDACM02]

Two of the rigs have Vindicators on the bumper lines. FWIW T.C.

Sweet! Our Squid now has one bumper load with 15/16ths and the other with a Vindicator. We've flowed the Vindicator at 450 gpm off the bumper using 2.5" hose and 300 gpm through 1.75"! That's about max through the discharge with each set up, before the pump starts fighting itself. Again, the performance spec vs. just asking for two 1.5" male threads to attach hose to makes a big difference.