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  1. #1
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    Arrow How many can you think of...

    Doubtless there are hundreds, however how many extrication training scenarios can you suggest? Think about past issues you've faced with vehicles, positions, etc and list a couple of really challenging training scenarios for us all to consider.


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    Forum Member pasobuff's Avatar
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    Vehicle upside down -(injured) occupants hanging by seat belts.....vehicle unstable on slope/snow.

  3. #3
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    Question

    Not bad..sounds good.

    I'm thinking a side-resting auto with roof against large tree. Impact produced major damage that resulted in auto "wrapped" around the tree. Viable patients inside requiring extrication.

    Would you...

    A. Stabilize the auto 'as found' and 'open the car up'

    or

    B. Control winch the vehicle from the tree (after patients are stabilized as best as possible) and operate 'normally' with an upright vehicle extrication

    or

    C.

    or

    D.

    Lets hear from folks! What do you think?

  4. #4
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyleach View Post
    Not bad..sounds good.

    I'm thinking a side-resting auto with roof against large tree. Impact produced major damage that resulted in auto "wrapped" around the tree. Viable patients inside requiring extrication.

    Would you...

    A. Stabilize the auto 'as found' and 'open the car up'

    or

    B. Control winch the vehicle from the tree (after patients are stabilized as best as possible) and operate 'normally' with an upright vehicle extrication

    or

    C.

    or

    D.

    Lets hear from folks! What do you think?
    You KNOW what I would do. And it goes AGAINST the thinking of 90% of the respondents here. With the USUAL admonishment:"you don't know what you're doing". If I can SAFELY cut the extrication time by 50% AND INCREASE the patients viability by using winches,it's GONNA happen. And YES; I KNOW what I'm doing. AND HOW to do it. Would you be talking roof first or side impact here,not that it matters for my answer? T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 12-14-2010 at 09:22 AM.

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    Hey Rescue101

    No worries, i've been told i don't know what i'm doing before lol

    I can see where you are coming from and would also consider the same technique pending on what i am faced with. This is still a recognised extrication technique and not one to be dismissed.

    The time that can be saved will be advantageous.

    If the vehicle it wrapped around the tree there is likely to be very little access to the casualties, and airway management will be difficult. relocate the metal where or if needed and remove the vehicle from the tree, by controlled winching/airbag use. rapid casualty access and stabilisation and space creation/removal.

    Jon

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    We've been having an ACTIVE discussion on this over at FFN. Let's just say I'm in a MINORITY. I will STILL use ALL the tools in my Box(and beyond)if I think it will influence a POSITIVE outcome. T.C.

  7. #7
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    I have used a winch one time to move a vehicle with a patient still trapped inside. It was a Camaro that had slid driver's-door first into the end of a guardrail. I can't guess how many feet of that guardrail were wadded up over that patient. She had severe, bilateral open tib-fib fractures and had lost a lot of blood.

    It wasn't my first choice, but I wasn't in charge anyhow! The IC considered several options and we tried them, but we were getting nowhere. After consideration, he decided it was an experienced group of firefighters and, given the patient's condition, a justified risk. We got her out quickly and she had a positive outcome--she is ALIVE...and walking.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
    --General James Mattis, USMC


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    What about an upright car that has slammed a tree, causing major damage to one side. Would you perhaps move the car from the tree, or simply rely on opening up the opposite side from damage. Sure, there are many variables however just creating thought/discussion.

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    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    We USUALLY winch them off after a careful patient evaluation. We find that it is MUCH faster and better for the patient than trying to remove enough vehicle from the passenger side. 3 of them to date,all arrived at the hospital but one was lost due to the severity of the trama(NOT related to the extrication). T.C.

  10. #10
    Forum Member FireInTheShire's Avatar
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    As far as I'm conserned if I need to get a patient out of a car safely then any well thought out plan is do-able. As long as it is SAFE, well THOUGHT OUT, and most importantly gets the patient out QUICKLY.

  11. #11
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    There are always variables in every situation

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    2 young ladies, in a 4 door Toyota, travelling north at 40mph. 18 wheeler backing up turning off highway onto side street. Trailer was full of Commodores band equipment. Ladies impact trailer just in front of rear wheels and make it 2/3 way under.

    Oh yeah, brand new rescue truck is out of state as a demo at a show so have to use mutual aid equipment (which is minimal).

    Heavy duty wrecker ETA 45 minutes.

    Luckily...no life threatening injuries.


    This happened to us a few years ago. Only accident involving a large truck that I can remember for 30+ years. Was a "think outside the box" moment for us.....with happy endings. (and yes, we tow trucked the vehicle out from under the trailer with the patients inside)
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #13
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    Merely a suggestion...use Go-Jacks under the auto when moving. Simply just roll it away.

  14. #14
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Go jacks in certain cases like underrides not always so good. They require a certain amount of LIFT to work. And Control on slopes CAN be an issue. Given my preferences a winch or comealong would be MY preference. Not that a Gojack isn't a handy tool but rather expensive for limited applications. T.C.

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    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    So, one of the scenarios we're talking about is a basic underride. Here is a training scenario of underride.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    MembersZone Subscriber rmoore's Avatar
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    Now, with T.C. monitoring every single message that has ever been posted, I know he'll enjoy this. Here's one solution to underride that we used at one of our yearly tow operator/ FD joint training drill. We'll need him to explain to the specifics of this technique to the rest of us novice responders.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  17. #17
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Shows what you can do with a Light Medium Tow truck on a EMPTY trailer.Looks like an old 45' box so it isn't a REAL challenge. I LOVED those trailers,you could upright them loaded without having the sides/roof blow out. NOT like the New 53's. The object, of course, is to relieve the pressure on the Shadow(car)by raising the nose of the trailer and transferring the load to the rear axles. The PROBLEM with this is these jobs are SELDOM with unloaded trailers and NEVER this clean. The Objective,however,remains CONSTANT: You need to LOWER the car or RAISE the trailer or BOTH.You can raise the tractor(missing in this pic)by use of jacks,airbags or a Heavy tow truck if available. Just a few inches of raise will generally free the car. I would prefer to winch the car out to work it AFTER the raise/release but some will disagree. Now, if you block the fifth wheel so it doesn't rock, any lift you put on the front of the Tractor will be amplified on the trailer. Not something that will work well with the average bottle jack but a couple good air bags will give you some clearance.Be SURE to block the wheels. OR you can lift on the trailers rear axle. If you block the axle first,you won't lose lift on suspension compression. These aren't terribly uncommon,if you haven't had a chance to work one,PRACTICE UP;Chances are GOOD you will before your career is over. BTW Ron, how did you guys do this one? T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 02-02-2011 at 09:11 PM.

  18. #18
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Car vs Schoolbus rear underride is another pretty popular item. If Ron has a pic somewhere maybe we could work that a bit. They can be quite challenging at times due to the way attachments are put on the rear of the bus(tow hooks). Not to mention they often become Mci's. a GOOD subject for discussion. T.C.

  19. #19
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    Thumbs up Go-Jacks

    Yes, Go-Jacks require some lift and are an expensive option. The lift of the car would be minimal I think IF the heavylifting unit did it's job.

    Using a winch is a good option, however may offer some 'jerking' as the casualty moves.

    Another option, 'skates'. They work well and are cheap.

  20. #20
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    I've used the Gojacks,they're handy. I've also seen them IMPROPERLY used on a slope,let's just say it was FUN to watch. They have a few uses but are best at flat ground moving of vehicles. I Certainly wouldn't buy a set for the Rescue Engine because of this and space limitations. There are other tools that can do MORE that that space can be used for. If space and $ are NO object you most ceratinly could find a use for them.Skates are good,you still need to lower the car a little or raise the trailer if you want to insure a smooth removal.WM skates are the best as you can interlock them to get a bigger footprint. T.C.

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