1. #1
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    Default Confined Space Rescue In A Crane

    Hello All..
    I took a tour yesterday of a cargo container crane looking at the various confined spaces to help train the employees on the hazards associated with themas well as to answer some management questions as to if they were permitted or non permitted spaces. I came across this space which is located in one of the vertical legs of the crane. This picture was taken from toe top of the leg which is about 150' high. There are multiple landings on the pictured ladder all in aprox 20'-25' segments. At the present time there is no way to connect to an overhead anchor as well as zero room for a tripod. I wanted to throw this out there because for us rigging junkies it's a good space to play around with.
    What are your thoughts?
    Mike Donahue


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    Last edited by ProgressiveRescue; 12-16-2010 at 08:30 PM.
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    Have you thought about skip rigging? It appears from the pictures that the ladders are staggered on the way down to each landing. If this is true the whole way down, rig your anchor/ MA under the landing above as you reach each landing change over to a second haul system that would be in place. This is close to what cavers run into while doing work in some of their areas. After each change over have the system that has just been freed up brought up to the next change over area. It's a bit of leap froging but it allows for no sharp edges for the haul line to run over and also allows for the haul team to work with gravity pulling down into the shaft.

    Intrested to see what others come up with for this. Do you have any other pics of what is above the top landing?

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    Assume you want to go down? From the top of the leg it would be too easy to get the person out onto the base and lower him from there, huh?

    Inside the leg? Use a little ladder on the landing (say an attic ladder*) butt the feet againt one floor/wall corner and lean it onto the opposite wall. Rig off a rung. Be a quick solution. First one that pops in my mind.

    * I know that attic ladders are usually rated under 300 lbs. Oh well.
    ~Drew
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    Bridge an opening above (however many levels you need to)with 4x4's, 6x6's or 4" or better rigid steel conduit. Tensionless hitches with some padding and you're ready to go! Once loaded the lumber won't move. The pipe on the other hand may require some bracing.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
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    If you're on the top level a little giant may work as a high point. Not sure what the ratings on this are.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
    Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
    Broomall, PA

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    I added a few more pics to the original post showing the overhead area. Space is limited so the little giant idea probably wont work. One of the thoughts I had as a way to achieve an overhead anchor was to lash a 4x4 to the top of the handrails you see in the 3rd picture. I love the skip rigging idea, you caver's always have a nice trick up your sleeve. My biggest concern would be getting them out not the ride up. I'm thinking a directional pulley attached to the 4x4 taking your MAS out of the egress pint would work. You couldn't connect your MAS directly to the overhead because the stroke of the system wouldn't allow the victim to exit the shaft. As I type this I'm thinking instead of the 4x4 let's do a tensionless wrap with a butterfly in the middle as a connection point. I think this method will be easier, safer, and quicker. This is a good topic...my thoughts are flowing now......
    Mike
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    Not sure I understand the layout past the shaft itself. Is the only point of egress all the way up? Any pics of this to relate to the rest of the shaft? I get the directional at the 4x4, is there any place to anchor the MAS on a horizontal plane after the COD?
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
    Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
    Broomall, PA

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    Mike,

    I just re-read your last post. The only issue I see with the tensionless wrap/butterfly is keeping it from slipping under load and ending up on the bottom of those handrails vs the top. From what I can see you need the anchor to stay on the top of the handrails to get completely out of the shaft. Not sure how I'd keep this from happening
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
    Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
    Broomall, PA

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    Ahh, closed hand rails. Thats where I would go for the up and out. I would have to agree with skipping the 4x4 and just got straight to the lashing and working right off of that. It looks like a real tight spot and minimizing the gear at the top is going to be key.

    Looks like a great job! let us know what you all come up with and take some pics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdcalamia View Post
    Mike,

    I just re-read your last post. The only issue I see with the tensionless wrap/butterfly is keeping it from slipping under load and ending up on the bottom of those handrails vs the top. From what I can see you need the anchor to stay on the top of the handrails to get completely out of the shaft. Not sure how I'd keep this from happening
    That's a good point....Maybe if we found the middle of the rope let's say we're using a 20-25' piece and evenly wrapped the bottom handrails say five or six times so once complete were left with the running ends of the rope on either side of the hand rails. Next take each running end and wrap it a few times around the top of each hand rail on its respected side then drop them down and with an eight bite create a more or less hybrid load sharing anchor. My thought behind this is the first set of wraps on the bottom will take some of the load force and as the top wraps also take the force they'll tighten on the top rail hopefully minimizing any movement.
    Thoughts?
    Mike
    "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

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    I follow your train of though here, but I can't help but to keep looking at the angle that the rope would be coming out of the shaft and how it would be pulling on the COD attached to the top of the rails. Maybe in addition to your load sharing hybrid, wrap the top rails with a series of tight wraps around both rails and then fraps (lashing style) to tighten it up just as a backup to create a stop of sorts. Maybe overkill, but I just don't like the angle between the top of the rails and the top of the shaft opening as well as the chance that the COD could slip down the rails. I'm sure that would create a decent shock load as well as really put the screws to you when you have to muscle the guy out of the shaft. Then either another COD maybe off the electrical conduit to keep the rope in the center of the shaft or padding the hell out of the edges. OK, that is definitely overkill, and maybe not doable, but some thoughts I got going through my dome! I'm thinking belay off the bottom rails to minimize the fall factor/distance.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
    Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
    Broomall, PA

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    Ha! I was kicking around the idea of wrapping and frapping the top as well John. I also had the idea of wrapping and tensioning the top like you would for a picket system.....Still thinking in between runs tonight on how I would keep the tension in the rope. In a picket system the picket keeps it in place, here we have nothing. Heading on another run....
    Mike
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    I know that this idea will most likely not be used for this training ( and I fully understand ), but this is where the Death Grip hitch comes into its own. If you tie it using two 8 or 9mm cords with a figure eight /nine to connect both of them it would hold just as bomber as the hand rails. Granted I cant give you any numbers for how much the hitch can hold before it fails, but I have used it for heavy pulls in the past as an anchor just to play with it and it worked great every time with no slip or break. Just a thought fr when all else fails.

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    How bout this...once you twist the windlass, take the end of the picket that you would be pushing down on and throw a clove hitch around it, then anchor it to the bottom of the rails or something else close to the ground. This should keep the tension in the system since you are only twisting the picket one way. If you go with a butterfly as the connection point in the actual anchor it should keep the COD pulley low enough that the windlass won't be in the way.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedylan View Post
    I know that this idea will most likely not be used for this training ( and I fully understand ), but this is where the Death Grip hitch comes into its own. If you tie it using two 8 or 9mm cords with a figure eight /nine to connect both of them it would hold just as bomber as the hand rails. Granted I cant give you any numbers for how much the hitch can hold before it fails, but I have used it for heavy pulls in the past as an anchor just to play with it and it worked great every time with no slip or break. Just a thought fr when all else fails.
    Dylan,
    I've never used that knot and I saw the Pic you posted (I think it was you). Do you think that the small diameter of the handrail would make that application difficult?
    Mike
    "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

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    For that matter how bout using a long three wrap prussik on each handrail and coming together with a tri-link or delta. Same principle as the death grip knot with known numbers to work with.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdcalamia View Post
    For that matter how bout using a long three wrap prussik on each handrail and coming together with a tri-link or delta. Same principle as the death grip knot with known numbers to work with.
    Hmmm...Not a bad idea John. Let's sweeten the pot a little and use two three wrap prussiks on each side
    MIke
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    Gets you well above the MBS that we'd be happy with/require. With two on each rail we're looking at 18,000 lbs, plus each one is backing the other up all the way around. Not a bad anchor. All that chatter and ending up with a simple solution we've all used a thousand times! Slow night in UD gives you alot of time to think, doesn't sound like you have the same luxury tonight Mike!
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
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    I know the 8 or 9mm would work just fine, you dont want to be too large due to not having enough grip. The only issue I would see with the prussik is the possabilty of it still slipping. Although if you place enough wraps in it there should be no problem. There are a few key things to look at when placing a wrap on an object when thinking abut slipping. first is diameter of the object, that will tell you what size of line you will need and the second is what is it coated/painted with. That will give you an idea of how many wraps you will need (example, bare polished metel or steel= more wraps, rough paint= fewer wraps).

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    So.... I just tried the 3 wrap on a small diameter vertical metal post in a raining to see how it performed. I figured if it could lock in vertically we'd be in business. There was some slippage so I tried a 4 wrap, that performed a little better but still some slippage occurred. So here's my over engineered idea. Let's keep the tandem 3 wraps on either side creating the load sharing system like you said (nice idea) ***Brace yourself here comes the over engineered part*** To prevent forward slippage (movement) let's shoot two struts rigid plate on the bottom and U channel on top. The U channels will receive the handrails thus blocking the rope from moving forward. Oh yes I'm thinking tonight. Maybe a bit to much.
    Mike
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    Mike,

    When you have a chance to look on youtube or google videos, type in death grip hitch. I found the smallest diameter pole object that I could find ( 9 or 10mm rail for my sons safety gate). I tied a 5 wrap down and 6 wrap up on it and had no movement. I had to stop putting weight on it when the whole gate started to want to come out of the wall I have it bolted into. I used a 8mm cord. Again I dont expect you to use this hitch for your training day, but this is something worth looking into when you have a chance to play around. It just hasnt slipped on me yet. Also good point to make out on the physics of this hitch, the way it works on its self under a load is to chocke in two diffrent dirrections with the wraps and then the load end pinches down on the whole thing. For this rescue set up you will not find a better hitch.

    Ok, so that is about as much " obsessing" as you will ever see me do!

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    Mike,

    I'm diggin' the over engineering. ONe thing to possibly change is u-channels on both ends may be a little more secure than the set up you described other than that good idea.

    Dylan,

    You have me intrigued with this hitch. I'll be playing with it next week on my dayworks.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
    Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
    Broomall, PA

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    Ha! How the hell did I overlook that
    Thanks for pointing that out.
    Mike
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    Mike, this is the type of crane stuff we are talking about?



    Noticed on firespecialops dot com they had an exterior rescue on one in long beach... http://firespecialops.com/2010/11/03...-2-from-crane/

    I know it is not what we are talking about, but I am bored working on Christmas.

    ***Stupid picture wouldn't post***
    ~Drew
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Mike, this is the type of crane stuff we are talking about?



    Noticed on firespecialops dot com they had an exterior rescue on one in long beach... http://firespecialops.com/2010/11/03...-2-from-crane/

    I know it is not what we are talking about, but I am bored working on Christmas.

    ***Stupid picture wouldn't post***
    That would be it! I'm going to try to get access again and set some rigging up for pictures.
    Mike
    "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

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