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  1. #41
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtg55 View Post
    Man, I take a week off and the pups take over? Where'd I leave that rolled up newspaper.....
    Hehe, I gave mine to COT last week while I was schoolin' our youngun's. T.C.


  2. #42
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehouse_Chick View Post
    Fyred,

    I made it clear that he said there are uses for it, as with car or trash fires or other misc things you could think of.

    It's true that you reduce your work and the effect of nozzle reaction by holding the nozzle out in front. But still insisting on holding the "grip" out in front of you? Still not enough leverage. Awkward and you're working against yourself. Why hold the grip? You're making it harder. Here's a well known guy from the Bronx and his brother from the Chicago area, they seem to agree with me.



    When you hold the grip in front of you, it's still not far enough in front of you to make a beneficial difference. lose the grip and you'll make it much easier for yourself.


    WRONG!.........AGAIN! A pistol grip is as versatile as the operator holding it. Most of our "small" lines have 'em and the personnel are trained from day one the various methods of holding and operating a handline. Just 'cause FDNY doesn't use them does NOT make them a BAD idea. FDNY doesn't haul much Di hydrogen Monoxide either but it is a NECESSITY up here in the North woods. T.C.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    WRONG!.........AGAIN! A pistol grip is as versatile as the operator holding it. Most of our "small" lines have 'em and the personnel are trained from day one the various methods of holding and operating a handline. Just 'cause FDNY doesn't use them does NOT make them a BAD idea. FDNY doesn't haul much Di hydrogen Monoxide either but it is a NECESSITY up here in the North woods. T.C.
    Rescue,

    You know what I'm getting at, I know you must. The pistol grip can have some uses, that is why I made sure to mention that in the first post on this particular topic.

    What about the video do you disagree with, it's precisely the general point I was making, save for a few exceptions.

  4. #44
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehouse_Chick View Post
    Rescue,

    You know what I'm getting at, I know you must. The pistol grip can have some uses, that is why I made sure to mention that in the first post on this particular topic.

    What about the video do you disagree with, it's precisely the general point I was making, save for a few exceptions.
    All I KNOW is you have ZERO time in the "business". Now I have NO idea how you train folks where you come from but HERE we DO NOT use You tube videos. AND,as we HAVE used pistol grips for over 25 years,I feel qualified to address this issue. The pistol grip does NOT have SOME issues,with PROPER training it becomes second nature to use it. And it is VERY easy to use the hose(With a pistol grip) in a CONVENTIONAL(NON-pistol grip) manner if one so desires. So PERHAPS a little learning is in order here before you comment on something you know ABSOLUTELY nothing about. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 12-20-2010 at 09:35 PM.

  5. #45
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehouse_Chick View Post
    Rescue,

    You know what I'm getting at, I know you must. The pistol grip can have some uses, that is why I made sure to mention that in the first post on this particular topic.

    What about the video do you disagree with, it's precisely the general point I was making, save for a few exceptions.
    If you are a 15 year old girl (which we all know you are not), how the F##$ would you know??
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #46
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    We put our thumb over the the end of the coupling.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  7. #47
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    We put our thumb over the the end of the coupling.
    Now that's funny.
    Bring enough hose.

  8. #48
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Myths.

    Penetration/distance are essentially the same thing and the straight stream from a properly adjusted adjustable is only marginally less effective than a comparable solid stream from a smoothbore.

    As for GPM and pressure, just compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges and choose the right nozzle for the job.
    I think of penetration as power. The amount of force the water will hit something with. I have solid streams that have ripped through dry wall. Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.

    Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.

    Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.

    I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.

  9. #49
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    I think of penetration as power. The amount of force the water will hit something with. I have solid streams that have ripped through dry wall. Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.

    Okay, why would you need to do that?

    Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.

    Not if the combo stream is a low pressure stream. The droplet size is larger and very similar to the stream from a smoothbore. The truth is a 75 psi combo nozzle flowing the same gpm as a 50 psi smoothbore will actually outreach the smoothbore with very little flyaway.

    Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.

    Again, not true if you are using low pressure combo tips. Did you know low pressure combo tips can be had in 50 psi? The same pressure as a smooth bore. Same flow, same pressure, what a concept.

    I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.

    I have, and that is how we ended up with the nozzle system we use today. The problem is it appears you only compared 100mpsi combo tips and ignored the low pressure nozzles that totally have changed the landscape.
    Perhaps you need to borrow some low pressure combo tips and run some ests for yourself. I bet your eyes will be opened.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  10. #50
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.
    Then you haven't tried it with comparable flows.

    Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.
    Greater, but not significantly greater. More to the point, aside from a surround and drown operation, when was the last time you used a smoothbore or straight stream so far from your objective that breakover distance was a significant factor? On an interior attack?

    Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.
    Not with comparable nozzles. I can go downstairs to the engine right now and pump two nozzles on equal lengths of 1 3/4" line, one smoothbore and one combination on straight stream, wyed off of the same pump outlet and get roughly 185 gpm @ 50 psi off of each nozzle. The smoothbore will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~69 lbs while the fog nozzle will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~66 lbs. That small sacrifice in stream force is a small price to pay for versatility in my book.

    I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.
    Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
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    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  11. #51
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Then you haven't tried it with comparable flows.



    Greater, but not significantly greater. More to the point, aside from a surround and drown operation, when was the last time you used a smoothbore or straight stream so far from your objective that breakover distance was a significant factor? On an interior attack?



    Not with comparable nozzles. I can go downstairs to the engine right now and pump two nozzles on equal lengths of 1 3/4" line, one smoothbore and one combination on straight stream, wyed off of the same pump outlet and get roughly 185 gpm @ 50 psi off of each nozzle. The smoothbore will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~69 lbs while the fog nozzle will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~66 lbs. That small sacrifice in stream force is a small price to pay for versatility in my book.



    Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
    We have done it with comparable flows. We have combo nozzles that when the tip is removed you have a smoothbore. You pump the fog the same as the smooth bore. They are both low pressure. The fog doesn't have the penetration.

    Your correct the break over typically is not a factor. However, it does prove the solid bore has more reach and less vulnerable to wind.

    Your correct at the same pressure you will get slightly more nozzle reaction with the smooth bore. Not much any nozzleman would probably notice. However the GPM is about 25 GPM greater than that of the fog at the same PDP. On our tests we got 170 from the fog and 195 from a 15/16 SB.

  12. #52
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    I perfer a smooth bore. Why you ask? Because a fog nozzle doesn't work well with a CAFS engine :P. As far as pistol grips go I like them because they give you something to hold onto when pulling a line, some times they are useful for a fire attack.

    Bottom line know what you have and know how to get the most out of it.

  13. #53
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Correct answer (IMO) is both. Smoothbore and fog.

    Akron Assault break-apart nozzles. 75/175 fog with a 15/16" smoothbore.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #54
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    I think of penetration as power. The amount of force the water will hit something with. I have solid streams that have ripped through dry wall. Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.

    Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.

    Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.

    I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.
    Not for Nuttin but how much WIND do you find in the AVERAGE Fire building? If you're defensive it might be a factor. And I really could care less.I'll use whatever is handed to me. Such is the nature of our RURAL area. T.C.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    However the GPM is about 25 GPM greater than that of the fog at the same PDP. On our tests we got 170 from the fog and 195 from a 15/16 SB.
    Is this testing with both the smooth bore slug tip and the combi nozzle attached to it? Elkhart publishes that there is a reduction of flow on a Chief nozzle when you have a slug tip or integrated smooth bore. Try it again with just the combi tip on a regular shut-off, I bet your gpm will be about the same. Of course this is assuming you are using a fog nozzle that is rated very closely to your SB. Such as a 200gpm@50psi nozzle. But you are probably using a 175gpm nozzle, so of course it is going to flow less.

  16. #56
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    Lightbulb

    Smoothbore for commercial fires.
    Fog only if you want to get steamed.
    Combination for ordinary fires.
    Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
    And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
    Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
    VB Rescue Squad 14
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  17. #57
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Rescue.EMT View Post
    Smoothbore for commercial fires.
    Fog only if you want to get steamed.
    Combination for ordinary fires.
    Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
    And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
    Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
    How many times have you been steamed by a fog nozzle?
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    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  18. #58
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    Is this testing with both the smooth bore slug tip and the combi nozzle attached to it? Elkhart publishes that there is a reduction of flow on a Chief nozzle when you have a slug tip or integrated smooth bore. Try it again with just the combi tip on a regular shut-off, I bet your gpm will be about the same. Of course this is assuming you are using a fog nozzle that is rated very closely to your SB. Such as a 200gpm@50psi nozzle. But you are probably using a 175gpm nozzle, so of course it is going to flow less.
    Yes it had the slug. The nozzles we use are detachable so that we can choose between SB or fog. My argument from my first post has been the smooth bore flows more gpm at the same PDP.

  19. #59
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Not for Nuttin but how much WIND do you find in the AVERAGE Fire building? If you're defensive it might be a factor. And I really could care less.I'll use whatever is handed to me. Such is the nature of our RURAL area. T.C.
    Why ask rhetorical questions?

    We have established their isn't much wind any fire buildings. Thanks.

    If you could care less then don't worry about this thread and move on. Let people who do care discuss the positives and negatives.

    Have fun fighting all that fire in your rural area.

  20. #60
    Forum Member BKDRAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Rescue.EMT View Post
    Smoothbore for commercial fires.
    Fog only if you want to get steamed.
    Combination for ordinary fires.
    Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
    And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
    Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
    Why pick a smooth bore for only commercial fires?

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