1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Then you haven't tried it with comparable flows.



    Greater, but not significantly greater. More to the point, aside from a surround and drown operation, when was the last time you used a smoothbore or straight stream so far from your objective that breakover distance was a significant factor? On an interior attack?



    Not with comparable nozzles. I can go downstairs to the engine right now and pump two nozzles on equal lengths of 1 3/4" line, one smoothbore and one combination on straight stream, wyed off of the same pump outlet and get roughly 185 gpm @ 50 psi off of each nozzle. The smoothbore will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~69 lbs while the fog nozzle will produce a calculated nozzle reaction of ~66 lbs. That small sacrifice in stream force is a small price to pay for versatility in my book.



    Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
    We have done it with comparable flows. We have combo nozzles that when the tip is removed you have a smoothbore. You pump the fog the same as the smooth bore. They are both low pressure. The fog doesn't have the penetration.

    Your correct the break over typically is not a factor. However, it does prove the solid bore has more reach and less vulnerable to wind.

    Your correct at the same pressure you will get slightly more nozzle reaction with the smooth bore. Not much any nozzleman would probably notice. However the GPM is about 25 GPM greater than that of the fog at the same PDP. On our tests we got 170 from the fog and 195 from a 15/16 SB.

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    I perfer a smooth bore. Why you ask? Because a fog nozzle doesn't work well with a CAFS engine :P. As far as pistol grips go I like them because they give you something to hold onto when pulling a line, some times they are useful for a fire attack.

    Bottom line know what you have and know how to get the most out of it.

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    Correct answer (IMO) is both. Smoothbore and fog.

    Akron Assault break-apart nozzles. 75/175 fog with a 15/16" smoothbore.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    I think of penetration as power. The amount of force the water will hit something with. I have solid streams that have ripped through dry wall. Can't say that it has happened with a straight stream from a fog.

    Distance is how far the actual stream will go especially before it breaks over. A solid stream will achieve far greater distance and less affected by wind.

    Apples to apples oranges to oranges? How about pumping the same 1.75" line. One with a fog and one with a smooth bore. You will get more more gpm from a smooth bore at a lower PDP.

    I'm not making this up. It isn't hype. Go do it for yourself.
    Not for Nuttin but how much WIND do you find in the AVERAGE Fire building? If you're defensive it might be a factor. And I really could care less.I'll use whatever is handed to me. Such is the nature of our RURAL area. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    However the GPM is about 25 GPM greater than that of the fog at the same PDP. On our tests we got 170 from the fog and 195 from a 15/16 SB.
    Is this testing with both the smooth bore slug tip and the combi nozzle attached to it? Elkhart publishes that there is a reduction of flow on a Chief nozzle when you have a slug tip or integrated smooth bore. Try it again with just the combi tip on a regular shut-off, I bet your gpm will be about the same. Of course this is assuming you are using a fog nozzle that is rated very closely to your SB. Such as a 200gpm@50psi nozzle. But you are probably using a 175gpm nozzle, so of course it is going to flow less.

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    Smoothbore for commercial fires.
    Fog only if you want to get steamed.
    Combination for ordinary fires.
    Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
    And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
    Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Rescue.EMT View Post
    Smoothbore for commercial fires.
    Fog only if you want to get steamed.
    Combination for ordinary fires.
    Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
    And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
    Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
    How many times have you been steamed by a fog nozzle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaster668 View Post
    Is this testing with both the smooth bore slug tip and the combi nozzle attached to it? Elkhart publishes that there is a reduction of flow on a Chief nozzle when you have a slug tip or integrated smooth bore. Try it again with just the combi tip on a regular shut-off, I bet your gpm will be about the same. Of course this is assuming you are using a fog nozzle that is rated very closely to your SB. Such as a 200gpm@50psi nozzle. But you are probably using a 175gpm nozzle, so of course it is going to flow less.
    Yes it had the slug. The nozzles we use are detachable so that we can choose between SB or fog. My argument from my first post has been the smooth bore flows more gpm at the same PDP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Not for Nuttin but how much WIND do you find in the AVERAGE Fire building? If you're defensive it might be a factor. And I really could care less.I'll use whatever is handed to me. Such is the nature of our RURAL area. T.C.
    Why ask rhetorical questions?

    We have established their isn't much wind any fire buildings. Thanks.

    If you could care less then don't worry about this thread and move on. Let people who do care discuss the positives and negatives.

    Have fun fighting all that fire in your rural area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Rescue.EMT View Post
    Smoothbore for commercial fires.
    Fog only if you want to get steamed.
    Combination for ordinary fires.
    Piercing nozzles for hidden fires.
    And of course, the truck washing nozzle for initiations , washing the trucks.
    Make sure they are painted to the colors I posted so you can know which one works better, NOW THAT'S AN IDEA!
    Why pick a smooth bore for only commercial fires?

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    First of all.. all this whining about nozzles.... oy vey!
    A nozzle is another tool in the toolbox... nothing more. nothing less.

    You give a garden hose nozzle to a crusty old jake and he can probably put out the damn fire with it.

    You have 2/20 and whiz kids with certifications up the wazoo who could not put out a trashcan fire if they threw the damn thing into a lake.

    Dumpster fires, car fires.. deck gun the damn things, check for bodies, refill the tank and go back to quarters!

    Everyone is bitching about the type of nozzle... how about the size of the damn line it is attached to?"
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 12-21-2010 at 05:10 PM.
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    Just for clarification, lets hear the purported benefits of the fog over the smoothbore. Even if flow, distance and penetration are equal, the simplicity of the smoothbore makes it far more reliable and far cheaper when replacing or buying new. And yes, I have had a fog nozzle not work properly during an incident and seen the same numerous times at fires and training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    My argument from my first post has been the smooth bore flows more gpm at the same PDP.
    Which is demonstrably false.

    What's your next best argument?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Why pick a smooth bore for only commercial fires?
    Because it's the only scenario where you typically find large enough interior spaces/compartments for selecting a smoothbore to make any sense.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    the simplicity of the smoothbore makes it...
    ...easier for firefighters who aren't competent enough to make decisions about what type of stream would be most effective in any given situation. :P

    And yes, I have had a fog nozzle not work properly during an incident and seen the same numerous times at fires and training.
    Honestly? That sounds like poor equipment maintenance to me.
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    I would imagine dr rescue has been steamed 0 times as he said in another post that he was another wanna bee firefighter - I wonder id he is related to jr ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    I would imagine dr rescue has been steamed 0 times as he said in another post that he was another wanna bee firefighter - I wonder id he is related to jr ?
    Where is that post? After checking out his posts using the SEARCH button, I saw none of what you just said, LIAR.
    I have heard of people getting steamed on accident by not checking their combination nozzle settings. Plus can't you read his signature? He is on a Rescue Squad (whatever the heck that is).
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    Deputy, your blanket statement about smoothbore use in commercial areas is nullified by those firefighters that successfully use them in residential occupancies on a daily basis - arguably with no difference in performance or knock-down times.

    As for the failure and/or performance issues with the fog nozzles, we've encountered the same thing at work. We've got about 75 fogs (all from the same respected manufacturer) and we're finding fluctuations of up to 100psi between the nozzles, and we do have a preventive maintenance program for them. We also have an intradepartmental nozzle shop whose members have received training from the factory on maintenance and repair. Could it be a bad batch of nozzles, springs, a design flaw? We're researching that now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    Where is that post? After checking out his posts using the SEARCH button, I saw none of what you just said, LIAR.
    I have heard of people getting steamed on accident by not checking their combination nozzle settings. Plus can't you read his signature? He is on a Rescue Squad (whatever the heck that is).
    That's the best thing I've read in a while. You made my night, thanks churro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    He is on a Rescue Squad (whatever the heck that is).
    He's a member of a large volunteer EMS agency.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 12-21-2010 at 05:59 PM.
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    Default Speaking of Reatard Alert!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    I have heard of people getting steamed on accident by not checking their combination nozzle settings.
    Yeah, that's why you check your nozzle pattern BEFORE you enter the structure, duh!

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    ours was operator's error.
    Smooth bore is to put more volume of water in the stream to attack the fire. Commercial fires are probably the most common , but the straight stream does not have the volume to output a stable flow of water while the smooth bore does. It doesn't matter no way anyhow, as long as my crew and possible victims get out safe and the fire gets out, why does it matter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    Plus can't you read his signature? He is on a Rescue Squad (whatever the heck that is).
    Hmmm, what could a rescue squad be, I'm thinking. Well for one, the heavy rescue at Dalton Fire Dept is called Squad 1, so perhaps their rescue company is what they call a squad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    First of all.. all this whining about nozzles.... oy vey!
    A nozzle is another tool in the toolbox... nothing more. nothing less.

    You give a garden hose nozzle to a crusty old jake and he can probably put out the damn fire with it.

    You have 2/20 and whiz kids with certifications up the wazoo who could not put out a trashcan fire if they threw the damn thing into a lake.

    Dumpster fires, car fires.. deck gun the damn things, check for bodies, refill the tank and go back to quarters!

    Everyone is bitching about the type of nozzle... how about the size of the damn line it is attached to?"

    Chief, I'm with you. Man, how bout this weather?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    ours was operator's error.
    Smooth bore is to put more volume of water in the stream to attack the fire. Commercial fires are probably the most common , but the straight stream does not have the volume to output a stable flow of water while the smooth bore does. It doesn't matter no way anyhow, as long as my crew and possible victims get out safe and the fire gets out, why does it matter?
    Pure Genius.99% of Steam burns(by nozzle)are. T.C.

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