1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    So is everyone saying, that smooth bore nozzles are just a marketing poly to make more money?
    I think that everyone said that.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Wait....smoothbore's or FIT-5's?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    For the "smooth bore only" crowd, humor me and post 5 bullet proof reasons that a smooth bore is that superior. But some parameters: If it's "because we always have", or "thats how so and so does it", nice try; if its steam burns/thermo balance disruption, I would look at your training program; if its volume, basic research will show a low pressure fog can deliver the same; reach, same; breakover, same; droplets loss/dispersement due to wind....really?
    I can completely see why FDNY does, and other extremely urban/tenement cities due. But bedroom USA? Oh, one other point, you CAFS guys don't count!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    So is everyone saying, that smooth bore nozzles are just a marketing poly to make more money?
    Nothing of the kind was stated.

    Smoothbores are the "original" nozzles.. and like combos, Rockwood fogs, Navy nozzles, Bresnan's, piercing nozzles and Vindicators.. they are tools in the arsenal.

    The nozzle don't put out the fire.. it's the experience and training of the firefighter on the knob that does!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    For the "smooth bore only" crowd, humor me and post 5 bullet proof reasons that a smooth bore is that superior. But some parameters: If it's "because we always have", or "thats how so and so does it", nice try; if its steam burns/thermo balance disruption, I would look at your training program; if its volume, basic research will show a low pressure fog can deliver the same; reach, same; breakover, same; droplets loss/dispersement due to wind....really?
    I can completely see why FDNY does, and other extremely urban/tenement cities due. But bedroom USA? Oh, one other point, you CAFS guys don't count!!!!
    I'm not a SB only guy, but here's 5 quick:

    1. Cheaper, by a long shot
    2. 1-3 moving parts, simplicity at it's finest
    3. least likely to clog or have a partial obstruction
    4. quantity and quality immediately visible to the nozzleman
    5. more water ends on the target than equal gpm fog when high temps encountered though not a common factor, a reality.

    Please reciprocate with a list of the superior fog nozzle traits. Everytime I ask, I get more questions and no answers

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I'm not a SB only guy, but here's 5 quick:

    1. Cheaper, by a long shot
    2. 1-3 moving parts, simplicity at it's finest
    3. least likely to clog or have a partial obstruction
    4. quantity and quality immediately visible to the nozzleman
    5. more water ends on the target than equal gpm fog when high temps encountered though not a common factor, a reality.

    Please reciprocate with a list of the superior fog nozzle traits. Everytime I ask, I get more questions and no answers
    1) The ability to change the pattern appropriate to the task at hand. (venting, overhaul, indirect attack)
    2) Single gallonage, non-automatic nozzles, are not complicated nozzles. Many are repaired in house.
    3) With non-automatic nozzles quantity and quality of the stream is immediately obivous to the nozzleman.
    4) With a low pressure nozzle the stream contains larger water droplets and remains cohesive very similarly to a smooth bore.
    5) With a breakapart nozzle the versatility of a combo tip AND a smoothbore is available.
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    he showed you didn't he?
    Lol j/k.

    Anyways, cmon, why does it really matter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Please reciprocate with a list of the superior fog nozzle traits. Everytime I ask, I get more questions and no answers
    Well, there you go.

    Are we done now?

    Anyone who relies on the nozzle type to determine their effectiveness in putting out a fire is a poor firefighter.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Well, there you go.

    Are we done now?

    Anyone who relies on the nozzle type to determine their effectiveness in putting out a fire is a poor firefighter.
    What are you the referee? Try adding something useful to the conversation, or just don't click on the thread if you're growing tired of people asking why fog?

    Not a single person has attempted to answer what they feel makes the fog nozzle superior. Fyred merely refuted (weakly at that) my 5 "pros" of SB's. Clearly, fog proponents cannot sell the fog on it's own merits, thus they try and tear apart any mention of a superior quality from the SB. And again, I use both, have put out fire with both and will continue to happily do so for many years. I'm merely pondering what makes you all so uppity about the fog nozzles?

    And SP: Really? You really, said you understand SB's in FDNY but not most other places? Why did they change how fire burns in NYC? Do they not have frame dwellings or us fireproof? What gives, worried some FDNY guys will take you to task? Since the rest of us have fewer fires than FDNY, we all need to ignore any lessons they learned? Only to needlessly learn the hard way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    1) The ability to change the pattern appropriate to the task at hand. (venting, overhaul, indirect attack)
    SB's can be used the same way with some very basic training.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    2) Single gallonage, non-automatic nozzles, are not complicated nozzles. Many are repaired in house.
    Many more parts, moving and fixed, which equals more potential problems. So while their not complicated, they are much more complex that SB's.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    3) With non-automatic nozzles quantity and quality of the stream is immediately obivous to the nozzleman.
    Not nearly as obvious as a SB, and that cuts out a huge section of the F.S. who use automatics. Maybe address the real issue clogging the tiny orifices?
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    4) With a low pressure nozzle the stream contains larger water droplets and remains cohesive very similarly to a smooth bore.
    Similar, but inferior. Clearly a solid stream has far larger droplets that any fog. A tight fog pattern is made up of millions of tiny particles which evaporate much quicker, delivering less actual gpm on the target when high heat is encountered.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    5) With a breakapart nozzle the versatility of a combo tip AND a smoothbore is available.
    Similarly, I could carry a fog tip in my pocket and screw it on the end of my shut off if I thought I'd ever need the fog.

    So, let's see 5 things a fog nozzle can do better in an structure fire. I'll start you off:

    1. Better hydraulic vent.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    5.

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    All Dalton ever uses is automatic fog nozzels. Wanna guess how many times we've ever had a nozzle clog? I'll go ahead and tell you, 0, zilch, nada, Dalton never had one clog. If your nozzle is clogging, you have bigger problems than the fact you are using a fog nozzle, you might want to get your tank and/or pump checked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    All Dalton ever uses is automatic fog nozzels. Wanna guess how many times we've ever had a nozzle clog? I'll go ahead and tell you, 0, zilch, nada, Dalton never had one clog. If your nozzle is clogging, you have bigger problems than the fact you are using a fog nozzle, you might want to get your tank and/or pump checked.
    Are you talking in the third person? When I say clog, I mean have any obstruction that reduces the intended pattern and/or flow. In fact most FD's who flow test their automatic nozzles find their flows far less than anticipated. Check around, I ain't making this stuff up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    What are you the referee? Try adding something useful to the conversation, or just don't click on the thread if you're growing tired of people asking why fog?
    I can't wait to see you solve this argument once and for all.

    While you are at it, go over to the blue light thread or the leather helmet thread and solve those too.

    Did you read the OP? Seriously, this thread was trash from Post #1.

    Not a single person has attempted to answer what they feel makes the fog nozzle superior. Fyred merely refuted (weakly at that) my 5 "pros" of SB's. Clearly, fog proponents cannot sell the fog on it's own merits, thus they try and tear apart any mention of a superior quality from the SB. And again, I use both, have put out fire with both and will continue to happily do so for many years. I'm merely pondering what makes you all so uppity about the fog nozzles?
    Good luck with this debate. Let me know when you've won.

    I can't believe that fires go out when a fog nozzle is used.... must be magic!
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 12-22-2010 at 10:45 PM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    The nozzle don't put out the fire.. it's the experience and training of the firefighter on the knob that does!
    This.

    Yet we are going to continue to beat this dead horse.
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    Honestly, I couldn't begin to care less whether you use a Combination Nozzle (the proper name for a nozzle that has an adjustable pattern), or a smoothbore, or a Vindicator, or your thumb over the end of the hose. Really it has not one single bit of effect on me and how we operate. You are the one who seems to be the most agitated by all of this nozzle talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    SB's can be used the same way with some very basic training.

    Sure you can vent with a smoothbore. Not even close to as effectively as with a fog pattern.

    Many more parts, moving and fixed, which equals more potential problems. So while their not complicated, they are much more complex that SB's.

    A single gallonage, single flow combination nozzle is as reliable as the day is long. I have not EVER had a failure with one of those types of nozzles. Well, other than with the bail, and that could have happened with a smoothbore.

    An automatic nozzle is a different story. They are complex beyond belief. There are so many components that can fail in them. In fact if they are not maintained there is no guarantee they are working anywhere close to what the original specs called for. I am no fan of them simpy because most FD's don't maintain them, clean them, or evn understand the basics of how to make them work properly.

    Truth be told I prefer smoothbore nozles. They are simple to operate, simple to maintain, and simple to train in the use for fire attack. But that doesn't mean that they are the only nozzle and the right choice for everyone and every situation.


    Not nearly as obvious as a SB, and that cuts out a huge section of the F.S. who use automatics. Maybe address the real issue clogging the tiny orifices?

    I would suggest if you had more experience with single flow / single gallonage nozzles you would see the fallacy in your astatement. It is readily apparent to me when the nozzle is being underpumped or over pumped. Never had a problem with colgging of a combination nozzle. I mean unless you are using the mouse standard that the FDNY has, combination nozzles have a flush feature. Perhaps if I worked in the core I would choose a smoothbore because of people sabotaging standpipes, or the rust and scale that occur in them naturally.

    Similar, but inferior. Clearly a solid stream has far larger droplets that any fog. A tight fog pattern is made up of millions of tiny particles which evaporate much quicker, delivering less actual gpm on the target when high heat is encountered.

    Sorry, I would disagree with you. I would put my 75 psi 200 gpm combination tip up against your smoothbore flowing a similar amount and I will bet you that my combo tip will have a longer reach AND a bigger footprint at the end of its range. The pattern shape, fly away, droplet size, reach, and footprint of a low pressure combo is virtually indistinguishable from a similar flowed smoothbore. I would put my almost 15 years of using low pressure combo nozzles as my evidence that what I am saying isn't theory, but established actuality.

    Similarly, I could carry a fog tip in my pocket and screw it on the end of my shut off if I thought I'd ever need the fog.

    Why would you need to? You have made it clear you can do anything with your smoothbore that I could do with my combo tip. We have the slug because it allows us to flow 300 gpm at just over 40 psi, where we normally flow 200 gpm at 75 psi with the combo tip.

    So, let's see 5 things a fog nozzle can do better in an structure fire. I'll start you off:

    1. Better hydraulic vent.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    5.

    It is just a different tool that many use successfully every day. I am at a loss as to why it bothers you so much.
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    you all realize this was started by a "reported" 15 y/o explorer who I concur .certainly isnt who HE proclamied to be .............so can we stop this now ?
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    And SP: Really? You really, said you understand SB's in FDNY but not most other places
    Yeah, really. You have different year tenement laws in your town? You have entire neighborhoods of brownstones? You have SOP's and solely dedicated to the tactics of those structures? All developed via experience? Or are you some expert with your smooth bore in some residential bedroom community? Oh yeah, that's similar......
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    The best thing about a fog nozzle is that I like them and they work good for me.
    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Yeah, really. You have different year tenement laws in your town? You have entire neighborhoods of brownstones? You have SOP's and solely dedicated to the tactics of those structures? All developed via experience? Or are you some expert with your smooth bore in some residential bedroom community? Oh yeah, that's similar......
    I fail to see how their tenement laws, entire neighborhoods of brownstones, or even dedicated tactics make them somehow the only acceptable users of smoothbores. It is exactly this that I'm trying to figure out. How is it you see the two nozzles differing in particular for the occupancies you're calling out? As for expertise, I claim none, but we choose to learn from others mistakes as well as our own. We're by no means FDNY whackers, but it's hard to argue some of the most relevant battle tested data that they provide based on the sheer volume of working fires they go to. Few of us will ever be able to recreate enough situations to gain an equal comparison. We choose to look at information and tactics from reliable sources and then test them in our own setting to prove or disprove their relevance.

    Oddly enough some of you folks are far more tight-azzed about this whole topic than I. Please quote where i said, fogs should not be used, I think you'll find many are hyper-sensitive to the issue and too quickly get their gander up.

    As I said, we have used fogs almost exclusively on 1.75" lines, I agree they work and kind find no fault with their selection, my only question has been what is the driving force for your selection and seemingly your ire over someone suggesting the smoothbore has some advantages? The only issue I take with fog nozzles of any significance is with the automatics, I don't like the inherent ability to make the stream look and feel good when the flow is reduced.

    I'm sorry if somehow any of this was offensive, no doubt this has been debated to death, but while I'm not trying for which one comes out on top, I'm more interested in the theories and reasons for selecting fog nozzles as residential tips. Everyone enjoy their Christmas and relax, I know I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I fail to see how their tenement laws, entire neighborhoods of brownstones, or even dedicated tactics make them somehow the only acceptable users of smoothbores. It is exactly this that I'm trying to figure out. How is it you see the two nozzles differing in particular for the occupancies you're calling out? As for expertise, I claim none, but we choose to learn from others mistakes as well as our own. We're by no means FDNY whackers, but it's hard to argue some of the most relevant battle tested data that they provide based on the sheer volume of working fires they go to. Few of us will ever be able to recreate enough situations to gain an equal comparison. We choose to look at information and tactics from reliable sources and then test them in our own setting to prove or disprove their relevance.

    Oddly enough some of you folks are far more tight-azzed about this whole topic than I. Please quote where i said, fogs should not be used, I think you'll find many are hyper-sensitive to the issue and too quickly get their gander up.

    As I said, we have used fogs almost exclusively on 1.75" lines, I agree they work and kind find no fault with their selection, my only question has been what is the driving force for your selection and seemingly your ire over someone suggesting the smoothbore has some advantages? The only issue I take with fog nozzles of any significance is with the automatics, I don't like the inherent ability to make the stream look and feel good when the flow is reduced.

    I'm sorry if somehow any of this was offensive, no doubt this has been debated to death, but while I'm not trying for which one comes out on top, I'm more interested in the theories and reasons for selecting fog nozzles as residential tips. Everyone enjoy their Christmas and relax, I know I am.
    Not me. Give me what you got MINUS the open butt with your thumb over it.They ALL have their place but with a decent nozzle operator ALL will put out FIRE. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Certainly a point in that. We run multiple preconnected lines and the first due runs one of each: SB, Elkhart Fog and a Vindicator. The best of all worlds.
    I gave you our reasons for using what we use. You "agreed" with that by telling me you have multiple nozzles for your handlines and select which line/nozzle at the time. That's fine, it works for you. We prefer to not have to choose which line and use same nozzle for all lines.

    I'm not giving you 5 reasons. I gave you our 1.

    We don't use automatics anymore. Used to, never found the need for the added cost. We also never maintained them. Nothing. And had 2 salesmen walk out mad because when he ran his flowtests to show how "inferior" the flow was going to be...he was proven wrong. Ya, I've heard horror stories on all the problems that will occur with fogs getting clogged up. Never talked to anyone face to face that actually had that happen, but there are some good stories out there.

    My sister company in town uses smoothbores alone for most of their lines. They always talk about the better reach/penetration. I ask them, how many residences do we enter that we need to be shooting a handline, interior, 50'. That answer is 0 by the way.

    I will readily admit, and it was my doing, our 2 1/2" lines are smoothbore only. At that size line, for our uses of it, that penetration becomes more of an issue. And I truly have not been to a call where I ever needed a giant fog pattern.

    It is close to Christmas. There is no "ire" here. We are having a discussion, one which I think has been pretty good. Exchange of ideas and thoughts is not a bad thing.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I gave you our reasons for using what we use. You "agreed" with that by telling me you have multiple nozzles for your handlines and select which line/nozzle at the time. That's fine, it works for you. We prefer to not have to choose which line and use same nozzle for all lines.

    I'm not giving you 5 reasons. I gave you our 1.
    No disagreement here. One reasons is enough for your FD, that's enough for me. I only asked for the 5 reasons as that's what was asked of the SB. Every FD has the right to make their selections of just about everything based on what they see as the most sensible thing for their FD. I'm always interested in the why particular choices are made and what drives the decision. Not saying these decisions are incorrect, just trying to further my education, I've got at least 1o more years to learn everything...

    I have been to a few calls where a big fog was called for, all for LPG tanks/piping leaking. For that reason we carry fog nozzle for the 2.5" lines as well as fog master stream tips, but all are in a compartment, not tipped out.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 12-23-2010 at 11:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Not me. Give me what you got MINUS the open butt with your thumb over it.They ALL have their place but with a decent nozzle operator ALL will put out FIRE. T.C.
    And that I'd never debate!
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 12-23-2010 at 11:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    No disagreement here. One reasons is enough for your FD, that's enough for me. I only asked for the 5 reasons as that's what was asked of the SB. Every FD has the right to make their selections of just about everything based on what they see as the most sensible thing for their FD. I'm always interested in the why particular choices are made and what drives the decision. Not saying these decisions are incorrect, just trying to further my education, I've got at least 1o more years to learn everything...

    I have been to a few calls where a big fog was called for, all for LPG tanks/piping leaking. For that reason we carry fog nozzle for the 2.5" lines as well as fog master stream tips, but all are in a compartment, not tipped out.
    10 years? OPTIMIST! I've been HERE longer than you will be THERE and I'm learning stuff EVERY day. If you get it ALL in 10 years let me know how that happens,Hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    Where is that post? After checking out his posts using the SEARCH button, I saw none of what you just said, LIAR.
    I have heard of people getting steamed on accident by not checking their combination nozzle settings. Plus can't you read his signature? He is on a Rescue Squad (whatever the heck that is).
    You call the guy a liar because you can't find a post he was refering to? Ok, then we will just call you IDIOT.

    And Rescue Squad. I can understand you not understanding what that is, it does have different connotations in many places. Here are some examples. You see what the firefighters down in your area drive?

    http://www.bpfd1.org/Apparatus/APPARATUS.htm

    That first vehicle is similar to what many rescue squads drive. Maybe you can ask them for a tour of the equipment.

    In many cities, the rescue squad is full of experienced firefighters providing extra expertise and manpower to a fire scene. It also includes extrication and specialized rescue. Here is another link to a great squad,

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/City-o...1/245862254295



    Steamed by accident? There are no accidents - there is however a failure to check the setting before going interior.

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