Smoothbore or fog nozzle...

[slackjawedyokel]

Fire guy 211 - its in post # 234 in "real men go interior "
LIAR - thats quite a word to throw out there - in his words "I dont know much about firefighting" -trying to get into the academy
My point fireguy (gosh I wish I had a cool name like that) is some one with limited if no experence has no business add an anecdoital tale he has heard or read without having experenced it. I will add nothing to the discussion unless I have "been there /done that"
And to add to the discussion - I came into the structural aspect of firefighting in 1980 - the tactic taught was the overhead attack - 30degree fog - into where the flames were just breaking over - mant times I upset the thermal balance and made "soup" - I got minor 1st degree burns on occasion . Setting on the tip was not the problem - blasting the ceiling too long was the problem.

[slackjawedyokel]

And FIREguy - (is that how you prounice it ? "heavy on the fire baby " Let me tell you bout the war years down in the parish" .
Rescue squad can mean many things in many different places - many places , have a completely seperate rescue squad from fire - some do EMS only , some do actual rescue. And some are fire based EMS - generally a fire based rescue squad will have the more experenced members on it , usually not the members that are still trying to get int rooky school.

[BoxAlarm187]

Adjustable nozzles can do everything smoothbore nozzles can do all the while providing options to do things that smoothbores can't do.

I'll concede that a fog is better at hydraulic ventilation.

[RFDACM02]

Adjustable nozzles can do everything smoothbore nozzles can do all the while providing options to do things that smoothbores can't do.

So again tell us the purported benefit gained by spending twice to three times as much for many more potential problems. I'm with Box, conceding that fog is better for hydraulic vent, AKA moving air. Short of that, as we do not rely on hydraulic ventilation as a primary vent tactics I see no valid reason to introduce more complexity and potential issues to an already dangerous assignment.

As for the fog nozzle issues I've seen? Many may have been maintenance, but regardless of the FD's PM program, a smoothbore would have had a far superior chance at working properly. Ever heard of ergonomics? Is not the simplest form that works, the best? Maybe we should stop hiring humans? As for my own FD's nozzle issues? Each gets removed weekly and checked for operation, gaskets checked, fog teeth inspected and spun on those with them and often rinsed through for good measure. Mostly I've seen issues at draft water supply fires, also seen paper and a straw.

So, as we've established and conceded to the fog nozzle being used in place of a truck company what are other benefits of a fog nozzle for residential fire attack? Must be something worth all that money for a TFT?

[Rescue101]

So again tell us the purported benefit gained by spending twice to three times as much for many more potential problems. I'm with Box, conceding that fog is better for hydraulic vent, AKA moving air. Short of that, as we do not rely on hydraulic ventilation as a primary vent tactics I see no valid reason to introduce more complexity and potential issues to an already dangerous assignment.

As for the fog nozzle issues I've seen? Many may have been maintenance, but regardless of the FD's PM program, a smoothbore would have had a far superior chance at working properly. Ever heard of ergonomics? Is not the simplest form that works, the best? Maybe we should stop hiring humans? As for my own FD's nozzle issues? Each gets removed weekly and checked for operation, gaskets checked, fog teeth inspected and spun on those with them and often rinsed through for good measure. Mostly I've seen issues at draft water supply fires, also seen paper and a straw.

So, as we've established and conceded to the fog nozzle being used in place of a truck company what are other benefits of a fog nozzle for residential fire attack? Must be something worth all that money for a TFT?

They work MINT for pushing burning propane. BTW,what did you do to my boy? Tried to get him to fly the Tower,couldn't get it out of the bed, Something about a FOOT switch(which OURS doesn't have). I told him he hung around you so long, you sucked all the brainwaves out of him,hehe. AND WHO buys Tft's? T.C.

[BKDRAFT]

Which is demonstrably false.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree because that is not what our tests showed.

I will stick with the smooth bore. I don't see why it would make more sense to use smooth bore in a commercial but not a residential. Please explain your reasoning.

[ChiefKN]

I think arguing which nozzle is better is really quite stupid.

They both work fine when used correctly. Period.

Can we all just grow up a bit here? Just a bit....?

[RFDACM02]

They work MINT for pushing burning propane. BTW,what did you do to my boy? Tried to get him to fly the Tower,couldn't get it out of the bed, Something about a FOOT switch(which OURS doesn't have). I told him he hung around you so long, you sucked all the brainwaves out of him,hehe. AND WHO buys Tft's? T.C.

I agree on the propane as well, but we're talking residential fire attack. For the record, we have both, ran fogs exclusively on 1.75" until this year, due years of misapplied theories and poor training based on IFSTA and others. Of course fogs work fine, I'm just wondering what Deputy Fog and others see as the purported benefits to make such strong statements and argue so vehemently. Maybe the rest of us aren't progressive enough? I only wear Hawaiian shirts when in Hawaii (not nearly often enough!), something about Rome and Romans...

BTW: Your boy was just refined a bit, you can't take the mountain out of the boy, even when he leaves the mountains behind. Consider him more well rounded for his short time on the coast, I wish I'd had him on my shift. Probably had more to teach some than he learned from us, but such is the life of an experienced "probie". And I don't actually know who buys TFT's but they seem pretty flashy and their employees drop in once in a while on vacation, get a picture taken and are compensated, so someone must be filling their coffers with money? Nice folks, silly over priced products...

[L-Webb]

I think arguing which nozzle is better is really quite stupid.

Can we all just grow up a bit here? Just a bit....?

Asking for alot ain't ya?

[FyredUp]

It has never really been the nozzle that gets someone hurt. It is the operator failing to use the nozzle properly.

When I was a rookie I was taught the crawl in the room, flop on your back like a dead fish, open the combo nozzle on wide fog and whip it around towards the ceiling. Of course what happened was the upper area of the room got water staurated and all the heat, smoke and black nasty dropped down on us on the floor and burned the bejeezus out of us. The even stupider thing was we were told that it was just part of the job.

Well, I began to wonder why we crawled right into the hurn room and purposely set ourselves up to be burned. I began to experiment with hitting the fire with a narrow fog, and then a straight stream from the doorway. Amazingly the fire went out and I didn't get burned. Same tool, different technique and WOW! the fire still was going out.

Could I do the same thing with a smoothbore? Of course I could work the fire from the doorway with a smoothbore and in fact I have.

The major difference between using a smoothbore or straight stream versus a combo nozzle on a fog pattern is how much more you have to move the nozzle to distibute the water. The technique is commonly called up, down, and all around.

One last comment, my volly and career FD's both use low bressure combos and slug tips, and the stream from a low pressure combo nozzle has more in common with a smooth bore nozzle than with a 100 psi nozzle. Low pressure nozzles have a more solid straight stream with less fly away than a 100 psi combo nozzle.

[tfpd109]

This is what we use.

[tfpd109]

Seriously... We have both. No problems with either style.

[Rescue101]

I agree on the propane as well, but we're talking residential fire attack. For the record, we have both, ran fogs exclusively on 1.75" until this year, due years of misapplied theories and poor training based on IFSTA and others. Of course fogs work fine, I'm just wondering what Deputy Fog and others see as the purported benefits to make such strong statements and argue so vehemently. Maybe the rest of us aren't progressive enough? I only wear Hawaiian shirts when in Hawaii (not nearly often enough!), something about Rome and Romans...

BTW: Your boy was just refined a bit, you can't take the mountain out of the boy, even when he leaves the mountains behind. Consider him more well rounded for his short time on the coast, I wish I'd had him on my shift. Probably had more to teach some than he learned from us, but such is the life of an experienced "probie". And I don't actually know who buys TFT's but they seem pretty flashy and their employees drop in once in a while on vacation, get a picture taken and are compensated, so someone must be filling their coffers with money? Nice folks, silly over priced products...

I've seen the whole Gamut of nozzles here. Bkdraft kind of missed my point. EVERYBODY around here uses different nozzles. ALL of OUR personnel are quite proficent because of this,they might have a Vindicator with OUR line,or an Elkhart on our neighbors. I don't CARE because whatever line you give ME,I'll use to put the fire out, Some work better than others,but I'm not seeing this SUPER effect of the smoothbore. For CAFS,MAYBE. There are say three Cafs trucks in our ENTIRE region. We've been combination for around a half century,straight bore before that. BOTH are still available,so pick your weapon. I prefer a 2" line with either nozzle for INTERIOR use on most SF dwellings. But that's just ME. T.C.

[RFDACM02]

I've seen the whole Gamut of nozzles here. Bkdraft kind of missed my point. EVERYBODY around here uses different nozzles. ALL of OUR personnel are quite proficent because of this,they might have a Vindicator with OUR line,or an Elkhart on our neighbors. I don't CARE because whatever line you give ME,I'll use to put the fire out, Some work better than others,but I'm not seeing this SUPER effect of the smoothbore. For CAFS,MAYBE. There are say three Cafs trucks in our ENTIRE region. We've been combination for around a half century,straight bore before that. BOTH are still available,so pick your weapon. I prefer a 2" line with either nozzle for INTERIOR use on most SF dwellings. But that's just ME. T.C.

Can't disagree with anything, but similarly, I don't see the SUPER advantage of either. I'm just curious why such strong feelings about fogs. We have smoothbores, auto fogs, fixed fogs, adjustable fogs, and the Vindicator all will work and I wouldn't hesitate a second with any one for residential fire attack. I'd actually prefer the Vindicator personally.

Still no answer? Besides moving air, what is the advantage to the more expensive and number of moving parts?

[Bones42]

The advantage to us is 1 nozzle that can be used for many tasks. We simply don't see any advantage to having to choose which nozzle to put on the end of the hose depending on what the situation is. It's one less thing to worry about. 1 nozzle handles all situations.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

I've seen the whole Gamut of nozzles here. Bkdraft kind of missed my point. EVERYBODY around here uses different nozzles. ALL of OUR personnel are quite proficent because of this,they might have a Vindicator with OUR line,or an Elkhart on our neighbors. I don't CARE because whatever line you give ME,I'll use to put the fire out, Some work better than others,but I'm not seeing this SUPER effect of the smoothbore. For CAFS,MAYBE. There are say three Cafs trucks in our ENTIRE region. We've been combination for around a half century,straight bore before that. BOTH are still available,so pick your weapon. I prefer a 2" line with either nozzle for INTERIOR use on most SF dwellings. But that's just ME. T.C.

Fires are still getting extinguished.... so wtf is this argument about again?

[Rescue101]

Fires are still getting extinguished.... so wtf is this argument about again?

'Cause we CAN. Hehe T.C.

[Rescue101]

Can't disagree with anything, but similarly, I don't see the SUPER advantage of either. I'm just curious why such strong feelings about fogs. We have smoothbores, auto fogs, fixed fogs, adjustable fogs, and the Vindicator all will work and I wouldn't hesitate a second with any one for residential fire attack. I'd actually prefer the Vindicator personally.

Still no answer? Besides moving air, what is the advantage to the more expensive and number of moving parts?

Boss solved PART of that problem . He started buying Sabrejets. Both worlds,ONE nozzle. We use the SINGLE shutoff version. T.C.

[RFDACM02]

The advantage to us is 1 nozzle that can be used for many tasks. We simply don't see any advantage to having to choose which nozzle to put on the end of the hose depending on what the situation is. It's one less thing to worry about. 1 nozzle handles all situations.

Certainly a point in that. We run multiple preconnected lines and the first due runs one of each: SB, Elkhart Fog and a Vindicator. The best of all worlds.

[FIREguy2011]

So is everyone saying, that smooth bore nozzles are just a marketing poly to make more money?