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    Default Smoothbore or fog nozzle...

    The opinions on this site are generally one or the other.

    After commenting a little in the last nozzle thread, I've noticed that the opinions vary on fire behavior and nozzles. Some believe the exact opposite of what others believe to be the gospel truth.

    My question is for the purpose of nozzle choice for interior attack only
    Two choices; if you "had" to pick between smoothbore OR fog, which would it be and why.

    I understand there are combo-smoothbore/fogs, however, my question is for smooth versus fog, only.

    Note: I am only 15 and in search of feedback. I'm an explorer and I know very little. Thanks

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    Wait! I have to get the popcorn ready for this one!


    Ok, now I'm ready...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehouse_Chick View Post
    The opinions on this site are generally one or the other.

    After commenting a little in the last nozzle thread, I've noticed that the opinions vary on fire behavior and nozzles. Some believe the exact opposite of what others believe to be the gospel truth.

    My question is for the purpose of nozzle choice for interior attack only
    Two choices; if you "had" to pick between smoothbore OR fog, which would it be and why.

    I understand there are combo-smoothbore/fogs, however, my question is for smooth versus fog, only.

    Note: I am only 15 and in search of feedback. I'm an explorer and I know very little. Thanks
    You might want to use the search feature for this subject. There are several threads on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfpd109 View Post
    You might want to use the search feature for this subject. There are several threads on this.
    True dat!

    Give me a smoothbore with CAFS coming out of the squirty end of the hose....out in the country that is. As for work, I'll take whatever they'll give me, although a 75psi breakaway gives a lot of options!
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    You have got to be kidding me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGITCH View Post
    You have got to be kidding me...
    Sadly,no!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony4310 View Post
    Sadly,no!!!!
    I know the answer is probably obvious to you folks, but not to me.

    I had my beliefs on this topic before this, but now I realize I should get some contrasting opinions, as I believe I've only heard one side of the story.

    I've read the threads from the past.

    The current postings are so varied, it left me unsettled regarding what to think. I would like "current" feedback from members.

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    I prefer automatics, Elkhart sm-30 with a break away tip to be exact.

    For interior fire attack I want a fog nozzle. With them you have every option.

    Just my two cents.
    Bring enough hose.

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    What you will find is that it will vary from department to department and area to area. In general you will also learn what works for FDNY might not work for St. Louis and what works for St. Louis might not work for Dallas. What works for all them might not work for a small department anywhere else and vice versa.

    To answer your question we use TFT automatic combination nozzles. Are they the best? I don't know, but we like them and have had no problems with them. It is what my department has used since before I started in 92.

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    Smoothbore for penetration, distance, GPM, and low pressure.

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    I've been around long enough for me to say... It Depends. Mostly because I'm old enough to have used them both upon occasion. Depends and Nozzles that is. For most fires, I want the versatility of a fog nozzle, because despite all the safety sallies, I still like the option of indirect attack and the ability to force fire and combustion products ahead of my advance. Having said this blasphemy, there are conditions where the use of a fog pattern is a distinct hazard to the operating hose crew. Anytime the crew gets above or between the fire and the ventilation point, there is going to be trouble with a fog pattern. An inch and three quarter line with an automatic nozzle set at 30 deg. fog will entrain at least 5,000 cubic feet of gasses per minute into the stream. The second thing a fog pattern does is develop huge amounts of steam. This is a distinct advantage when operating in a confined area, provided that the confined area is not occupied by either unprepared firefighters or victims. Many times the initial hose line is advancing on the fire before adequate ventilation has been established. This results in the steam being forced back over the crew and recycled through the room or rooms rapidly by the action of the fog pattern. Condensing steam is bringing 970 BTU per pound back upon the hose line crew. The water condenses on anything that is below 212 deg. F, including you and your gear.
    The combination allows the option of going to a straight stream for reach and to hit the base of the fire, minimizing the air entrainment and thus preventing the violent turbulence inside an unvented space. I completely agree with those who advocate a solid stream when using a standpipe operation, because of possible debris in the system. Having learned to fight fire with high pressure fog, laced with "Penetro-wet", I completely appreciate the advantages provided by CAFS, and the resultant rapid extinguishment due to reflection of the heat and the penetration of the fuel by the water and surfactant.
    I can confidently repeat... It Depends... And sometimes when one doesn't work try the other, but you can't do that with a fixed fog, nor with a solid bore nozzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    In general you will also learn what works for FDNY might not work for St. Louis and what works for St. Louis might not work for Dallas. What works for all them might not work for a small department anywhere else and vice versa.
    I'll bet any of us can make any of the standard nozzles work, it's just that we choose not to. Many places are stuck in years of misapplied theories with years of experience doing it one way, thus trying anything else gets a chilly reception from all levels. Just look at the evidence showing the safest and most efficient hose/nozzle combination for standpipe ops, and then look at how many FD's do anything to justify their use of 1.75" with 100 psi fog nozzles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehouse_Chick View Post
    I know the answer is probably obvious to you folks, but not to me.

    I had my beliefs on this topic before this, but now I realize I should get some contrasting opinions, as I believe I've only heard one side of the story.

    I've read the threads from the past.

    The current postings are so varied, it left me unsettled regarding what to think. I would like "current" feedback from members.
    HOW ABOUT: USING what your AGENCY issues? ASSUMING of course that you: Are OLD enough to hold the nozzle,have been TRAINED to USE the nozzle,and have COMPLETED enough TRAINING to be allowed interior. OOPs,you're coming up a little SHORT aren't you? T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Smoothbore for penetration, distance, GPM, and low pressure.
    Myths.

    Penetration/distance are essentially the same thing and the straight stream from a properly adjusted adjustable is only marginally less effective than a comparable solid stream from a smoothbore.

    As for GPM and pressure, just compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges and choose the right nozzle for the job.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    HOW ABOUT: USING what your AGENCY issues? ASSUMING of course that you: Are OLD enough to hold the nozzle,have been TRAINED to USE the nozzle,and have COMPLETED enough TRAINING to be allowed interior. OOPs,you're coming up a little SHORT aren't you? T.C.
    ^^^You know I'm an explorer and only 15. I'm trying to learn now, not to be told I'm too young. ("note" in the original post).

    I have no problem using whatever my agency uses when that time comes. My question isn't regarding what my agency uses, I want to actually learn about things. That way, my knowledge isn't to the effect of; "because it's what our agency uses, or it's what we've always done".

    Thanks

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    Clearly a troll.

    There is no way some 15 year old is coming on to this site and selected ALL the topics that will create mayhem.

    What's next Blue Lights? Leather Helmets?

    I call shenanigans on this person. She/he aint who she/he claims and is just stirring things up.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Clearly a troll.

    There is no way some 15 year old is coming on to this site and selected ALL the topics that will create mayhem.

    What's next Blue Lights? Leather Helmets?

    I call shenanigans on this person. She/he aint who she/he claims and is just stirring things up.
    Please, I can understand you're concerns, but this thread isn't about me.

    I appreciate all of the info and help I've gotten so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Clearly a troll.

    There is no way some 15 year old is coming on to this site and selected ALL the topics that will create mayhem.

    What's next Blue Lights? Leather Helmets?

    I call shenanigans on this person. She/he aint who she/he claims and is just stirring things up.
    I bet she soon starts a thread on Union v/s Non-Union, or Paid v/s Vollie, East v/s West, Whats the best color for a Fire Truck (Yellow of course! ) I mean, I love to argue just as much or more as the next guy, but there is no way that this "kid" just happens to ask question and start threads about some of the hottest contested subjects out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehouse_Chick View Post
    Please, I can understand you're concerns, but this thread isn't about me.

    I appreciate all of the info and help I've gotten so far.
    What do you mean its not about you? You are the one asking the questions and starting the threads. Why are you not in School today anyway?
    Stay Safe
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    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What do you mean its not about you? You are the one asking the questions and starting the threads. Why are you not in School today anyway?
    We have a winner!

    Time for this person to come clean!

    Bull, are you a detective??
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What do you mean its not about you? You are the one asking the questions and starting the threads.
    But my questions are not about me, they're regarding the stated topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Why are you not in School today anyway?
    Christmas vacation




    Any other opinions, everyone has been helpful. Thanks, so far I'm learning a lot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firehouse_Chick View Post
    Christmas vacation
    Yea, right...

    Lame.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Yea, right...

    Lame.
    How so? They still in school over in Jersey Chief?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfpd109 View Post
    Wait! I have to get the popcorn ready for this one!


    Ok, now I'm ready...
    I like mine with butter!


    My opinion is, they both work. I'll choose the one with the lowest reaction, and the fewest gizmos and gew gaws on it. It needs to be rugged as hell, extremely hard to clog, and operate in an intuitive fashion. In other words firefighter-hopped-up-on-adrenaline proof. No suicide knobs or other multiple control options.

    Personally, I prefer a smoothbore. Lots of flow, a low nozzle pressure for less reaction, and exactly 1 control- an on and off. Unlike an automatic, you get instant feedback of pressure/flow problems. The solid slug of water tends to have more penetrating power and is less vulnerable to high heat.

    If I do get a fog tip, I prefer a fixed gallonage/low pressure model. These also have the benefit of a reduced nozzle reaction, and the larger droplet size they create is also less vulnerable to high heat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    I like mine with butter!


    My opinion is, they both work. I'll choose the one with the lowest reaction, and the fewest gizmos and gew gaws on it. It needs to be rugged as hell, extremely hard to clog, and operate in an intuitive fashion. In other words firefighter-hopped-up-on-adrenaline proof. No suicide knobs or other multiple control options.

    Personally, I prefer a smoothbore. Lots of flow, a low nozzle pressure for less reaction, and exactly 1 control- an on and off. Unlike an automatic, you get instant feedback of pressure/flow problems. The solid slug of water tends to have more penetrating power and is less vulnerable to high heat.

    If I do get a fog tip, I prefer a fixed gallonage/low pressure model. These also have the benefit of a reduced nozzle reaction, and the larger droplet size they create is also less vulnerable to high heat.
    Thanks for all the thoughtful feedback.

    It's funny, regarding your comment on the pistol grip (which is what I believe you meant by suicide knob). My brother said these are largely useless. Sometimes for car fires or misc stuff they could be used, however, when attacking a building fire he's explained many times, not to hold the line by the pristol grip (his dept only has them for trash/car fires). He said this can be telling of someones experience or lack thereof.

    As he put it; when doing this, you're basically placing the knob under your armpit area and allowing the nozzle reaction to get the better of you. By holding it, you have to rotate your whole body around with the nozzle. Instead, he was taught to hold the nozzle well out in front of your body.

    He let me try this, it was amazing. It reduces the amount of work you have to exert and you won't be muscling the nozzle with your whole upper body.
    He showed the difference between holding the grip while flowing a 2.5 line and then putting the nozzle way out in front of you. I could actually hold the 2.5 by myself by putting it way out in front of me!

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