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Thread: Tank Fill valve

  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Default Tank Fill valve

    Specing a new tanker, and one manufacturer says the size of the pump to tank valve will be 3 inch.

    This is for a 750 GPM or 500 GPM pump. sound right? 5 inch intake


  2. #2
    Forum Member tfpd109's Avatar
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    LVFD, Are you talking the tank fill valve or the tank to pump valve?

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    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    3inch for a 750 GPM or 500 GPM pump is quite adequate. We had them on pumps up to 1,250gpm. Anything over that, we required 4 inch tank to pump valves.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Tank - to - pump line that includes a swing out ball valve and a swing check on the input to the pump manifold is covered in the NFPA spec. Needs to flow a minimum of 500 gpm. In practice a 3" T to P of less than 10 inches can usually supply about 600 gpm initially (tank full) and drops off when the whirlpool starts to suck air. Depends upon the design of the tank sump. Usually around 20% tank volume remaining.
    With a 3" tank FILL, you will need to be careful self filling as you will easily be able to cavitate the pump when working from draft. A 5" hard sleeve indicates a 750 to 1,000 gpm pump. A 4" or 4 1/2" sleeve is for 500 gpm pumps. Impeller width is the difference with the same casting up to 1250 gpm. Running some iron pipe calculations for 2 elbows and a 10 ft. run - A pressure of 25 psi will move 750 gpm into the tank. If this is on a commercial chassis, you will be limited to a PTO pump because of current pollution equipment and heat in the pump compartment. Be certain that the PTO is capable of at least 100% over design on the 750 pump. 750 gpm at 150 psi is 34 water HP, so the PTO needs to be at least 125 HP capacity due to the pump efficiency and the 100% over design.
    Last edited by KuhShise; 12-23-2010 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Added HP numbers

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    The 3" TTP will give you about 500 gpm. Go to 4" if you may flow any more than that. We have dual 4" TTP's on our newest engine, but that's more due to the shape of the tank than for flow.

    A 2" tank fill line should be fine on the pumps you are looking at.

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    I've never measured the flow, but we went with a 4" TTP and 2 1/2" tank fill on our pumper tanker. We've flowed a lot of water off the tank, I can tell you that.

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    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Thanks all. Specing out a new tanker, and it just jumped out at me.

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    Are you also putting in direct tank fills ?
    ?

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    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Yes sir! Two 2 1/2 ones. Maybe just maybe candycanes.

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    If you put the "candycane" type fills on, think about a drain valve to let off the head pressure left in the fill pipe-not so much a problem if you use camlocks , but it you use threaded fittings , your gloves will get soaked
    ?

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    I also have seen some check valves on the quick fills.
    ?

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    I like the idea of a portable candycane - if we can figure out one that will work on our mutual/auto aid partners. Two handles on them, leave the line connected, and you just hook them into the fill area. We can make them work on our equipment, its the adjoining areas that make things difficult.

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    While I don't remember if you're running LDH, don't overlook the benefit of putting a bigger tank-fill in. Even if you wye it, you can get more flow into a single 4" than you can two 2 1/2" fills. If you ever go to LDH in the future or fill off a mutual aid department that has it, you've already got the fill to maximize it.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    That was my thought on the tank fill valve. I was planning to use the steamer for LDH, but what is the point if I throttle it down to 3 inch at the tank fill valve.

    I don't guess I have seen a 5 inch straight to the tank before. Ideas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    That was my thought on the tank fill valve. I was planning to use the steamer for LDH, but what is the point if I throttle it down to 3 inch at the tank fill valve.

    I don't guess I have seen a 5 inch straight to the tank before. Ideas?
    Ours has a 4" pipe direct into the tank at the rear of the truck. The valve is a slow-upen gate valve with a wheel as opposed to a butterfly that I've seen a lot of. For whatever reason, I don't think it has a pressure relief valve on it (I know it has a drain valve, though), but then again it's going into the tank that's vented and the vent can relieve the pressure (Not sure that's reliable, but it's working for us so far). The valve has a 30-degree elbow and we keep the wye either hooked on it or in the compartment to the rear (pretty much depends on the last guy to use it).

    Regardless of what you use to fill, you want to stay below 80 psi when filling direct into the tank, with 100 psi max. The tank fills, be it off the pump or a direct, often put the water directly onto a baffle to dissipate the stream going in. If you put too much pressure on that baffle, you can dislodge it, hence the limits.

    We typically fill off of hydrant pressure with the LDH tank fill and it does it faster than a pumper throwing 80 psi to a 2 1/2" or even hooking LDH to the pump and filling through the pump. We've played with it a couple of times where we hooked the engine to the hydrant and then filled direct off the LDH and it's freaking fast. Our biggest problem is we're the only FD in the county that can pump LDH and one of only two that has LDH.

    I'll try to remember to get a picture of ours and send to you. I just have to find time to get to the station to do so, or at least peruse pictures on my hard drive.

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    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post

    I'll try to remember to get a picture of ours and send to you. I just have to find time to get to the station to do so, or at least peruse pictures on my hard drive.
    That would be great - where did you get yours from?

    If you are going to be at the station Wednesday or Thursday evening I would bring a couple of my guys by to look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    That would be great - where did you get yours from?

    If you are going to be at the station Wednesday or Thursday evening I would bring a couple of my guys by to look.
    I can make myself available to be if you want to make the run. I should be off both days.

    It's a Rosenbauer.

    There's a picture on the "Show us what you got w/ your grant" (Show us what you got w/your grant!) thread, but it doesn't show the rear. However, a few posts below you'll see Mitchkrat's rig, which is a sister. The rear tank fill on his has a different valve, but is in the same position and looks close to the same size.

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    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Ah, I remember now. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, once again I wonder if the money will do it.

    I sent Rosenbaur a message, not sure who their dealer is now over here, but sent it to corporate asking if they would be interested in bidding - 3 weeks later no reply.

    I will let you know soon on this week.

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    LV -

    Are looking for a tanker or a pumper/tanker.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    LV -

    Are looking for a tanker or a pumper/tanker.
    Tanker.

    minimum needs of less than 28 feet long, NFPA specs, 500 gpm pump.

    And White over blue... LOL

    2000 gallon or so. (I don't figure I can get more than 2000 and stay that short)

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