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  1. #1
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    Default Abandoned..Not Vacant--Why We Need to Enter and Search (as best possible)

    CNN --

    Eight people died in a fire in an abandoned building in New Orleans overnight, the city fire department said Tuesday.

    The victims are believed to have been homeless.

    A fire department dispatcher said the call came in shortly before 2 a.m.

    Chief Charles Parent told CNN affiliate WDSU that the victims may have sough warmth inside the building as temperatures dipped below freezing in the area.

    A freeze warning was in effect for the region early Tuesday, WDSU reported.


  2. #2
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    Yup, there's no reason to search a vacant building...

  3. #3
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    Well, ask Chicago, FDNY, some of those places have makeshift apartments.
    Benton Fire District Four
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    First Due!


    Caddo Parish Fire District 1
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    When things get rough, just say:
    Acabo de perder cinco minutos de su vida.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    I agree len. Like you put "as best as possible" in general doing a size up and 360, you could make the choice of either yes or no to conduct a search/ go interrior.

  5. #5
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Another fine example of why real world experience, that earned on the fire ground, is even more valuable.
    But unfortunately, the safety sallies will, without knowing all the facts mind you, will run with the tragedy of Chicago and use cute little catch phrases to do what ever they can do to eliminate any risk in this job. Not the fact that abandon doesn't mean vacant.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
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  6. #6
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    Waiting to see comments about why this is not an example for why we search all buildings.
    Let the spin begin.

  7. #7
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    Isn't that the primary job of a Ladder Co? besides vent ops?
    Benton Fire District Four
    Ladder One
    First Due!


    Caddo Parish Fire District 1
    Career Firefighter/Paramedic


    When things get rough, just say:
    Acabo de perder cinco minutos de su vida.

  8. #8
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipper123 View Post
    Waiting to see comments about why this is not an example for why we search all buildings.
    Let the spin begin.
    Without al the facts, I don't see how anyone on either side of the arguement can make an honest case here. From what I have heard, their were survivors outside when the first units arrived telling them that folks were inside. Kind of removes this from being a case study.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  9. #9
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
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    We don't need case studies. Fires in "abandoned" buildings are usually not started by rats playing with matches. If there's no lightning about, you might oughta suspect people were about.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

  10. #10
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    CNN --

    Eight people died in a fire in an abandoned building in New Orleans overnight, the city fire department said Tuesday.
    WHAT???? How could that be?? It was a "vacant" building GDammit!!!
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  11. #11
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    Isn't that the primary job of a Ladder Co? besides vent ops?
    I believe it's everyones job. Not just Ladder and Rescue Co's. Sometimes a nozzleman can find someone while advancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    We don't need case studies. Fires in "abandoned" buildings are usually not started by rats playing with matches. If there's no lightning about, you might oughta suspect people were about.
    Not sure johnny. The Arson Squad by me has fallen under the budgetary axe and was disbanded. I think there will be alot of 'rats playing with matches' soon.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Another fine example of why real world experience, that earned on the fire ground, is even more valuable.
    But unfortunately, the safety sallies will, without knowing all the facts mind you, will run with the tragedy of Chicago and use cute little catch phrases to do what ever they can do to eliminate any risk in this job. Not the fact that abandon doesn't mean vacant.
    Great post!!

    I agree 110%
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

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    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  13. #13
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Searches should be done unless the structure and fire conditions prevent it.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  14. #14
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Searches should be done unless the structure and fire conditions prevent it
    But Chief, my college degree and all those table top exercises didn't teach me how to read those conditions....
    Sorry for the sarcasm, couldnt resist! LOL (but we agree)
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
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    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
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  15. #15
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    But Chief, my college degree and all those table top exercises didn't teach me how to read those conditions....
    Sorry for the sarcasm, couldnt resist! LOL (but we agree)
    I wonder if you could create a college degree curriculum that would reflect those skills?

    The science and all is a given, but what about some real, evidence based, college level tactics courses? Do they exist?

    Sorry for veering off topic.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    I have a simulated degree in mastering simulations and table top exercises.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  17. #17
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I have a simulated degree in mastering simulations and table top exercises.
    Did it involve wearing vests, moving little figurines and matchbox vehicles around a table while talking on portable radios to a person six feet away?

    Cuz I have that degree too!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Did it involve wearing vests, moving little figurines and matchbox vehicles around a table while talking on portable radios to a person six feet away?

    Cuz I have that degree too!

    So you were there??

    I don't see why mutual takes so long, I just reach into the box of fire trucks and place them on the board....there, arrived and waiting assignment!

    I'm sorry I missed you...I didn't see your pretty name tag in front of your desk. My name tag was beautiful.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  19. #19
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Searches should be done unless the structure and fire conditions prevent it.
    As simple to understand as it gets.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  20. #20
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    Fire was a delayed report.

    In this case, the building was already fully involved and partially collapsed upon the arrival of the NOFD.

    Search was not possible until fire was knocked down from the exterior.

    As a previous poster discussed, there were occupants who had escaped and informed the arriving companies of people still inside, so this was a structure with known occupants upon arrival.

    Certainly not the same situation as arriving at a vacant, abondoned or unoccuiped structure with no information regarding occupants.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-29-2010 at 10:50 AM.

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