1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default How to decide How/When/Where to Vent

    I am a Junior Firefighter with crest, and I am just trying to figure out how/when/where to vent in these types of scenarios

    Two-Story buildings:
    Arrive on-scene see turbulant smoke leaving the building on the A-side through a window.
    - Would you vent all the windows?
    - Would you vertical ventiliate through the roof?
    - Would you use PPV?

    Single-Story buildings:
    See smoke coming through the smoke stack when arrive on-scene and just as you enter it self-ventilates.
    - Would you knock all the windows out?
    - Would you Vertically vent?
    - Would you horizontally vent?
    - Would you use PPV?

    Not trying to get insulted or anything just asking questions.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,048

    Default

    There are way too many variables to answer any of those questions.
    ?

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,630

    Default

    Gain as mucj knowledge as you can about fire behavior, building construction and fire attack, and how ventilation will help or hurt the crews inside.

    Use the resources at your station to study as much as you can.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    SCHAUMBURG, IL.
    Posts
    133

    Default

    Your scenario has too many variables to answer. Turbulent smoke means window is broken and ventilation has begun. Maybe take more windows out until team can get to roof. Another option might be not to take windows so ppv can be used.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Bossier Parish, Benton LA
    Posts
    197

    Default

    It's obvious that you would automatically ventilate horizontally on the A-side and let the fire stay in that spot. Then you would throw up a ladder on the 2d story and vent the second floor windows. If you ask anyone else they would tell you to VES, but if you're a Jr in the southern area, your department probably won't know what VES is anyways.
    Benton Fire District Four
    Ladder One
    First Due!


    Caddo Parish Fire District 1
    Career Firefighter/Paramedic


    When things get rough, just say:
    Acabo de perder cinco minutos de su vida.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,959

    Default

    As others have stated, too many variables and not enough detail to provide good answers, but I'll give you a few that I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    I am a Junior Firefighter with crest, and I am just trying to figure out how/when/where to vent in these types of scenarios

    Two-Story buildings:
    Arrive on-scene see turbulant smoke leaving the building on the A-side through a window.
    - Would you vent all the windows? By "vent" I'm assuming you mean "break" in order to provide ventilation. The answer is No, only the ones that need to be taken out will be. If the fire is only on one floor, there's a good chance that only that floor's windows need taken out. The others could probably just be opened. Additionally, taking too many windows can cause problems with fire spread.
    - Would you vertical ventiliate through the roof?Typically ventilation of the roof is only effective if the fire is in the attic space and/or top floor. In my department, we rarely do verticle ventilation. In part because of manpower issues and in almost all situations we can achieve sufficient ventilation using horizontal much faster.
    - Would you use PPV?Yes, but for us, not until we have control of the fire.

    Single-Story buildings:
    See smoke coming through the smoke stack when arrive on-scene and just as you enter it self-ventilates.Where did it self-vent from? Are you talking about a "chimney"?
    - Would you knock all the windows out?Maybe? Depends a lot on size of the building and location of the fire.
    - Would you Vertically vent?Again, for us, probably not.
    - Would you horizontally vent?Absolutely.
    - Would you use PPV?Yes and as stated above.

    Not trying to get insulted or anything just asking questions.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    It's obvious that you would automatically ventilate horizontally on the A-side and let the fire stay in that spot. Then you would throw up a ladder on the 2d story and vent the second floor windows. If you ask anyone else they would tell you to VES, but if you're a Jr in the southern area, your department probably won't know what VES is anyways.
    Automatically? Good god, please hire some officers who can set your FD back on track. Please OP, if you're for real, do not let someone just tell you the one right answer based on so little information.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    It's obvious that you would automatically ventilate horizontally on the A-side and let the fire stay in that spot. Then you would throw up a ladder on the 2d story and vent the second floor windows. If you ask anyone else they would tell you to VES, but if you're a Jr in the southern area, your department probably won't know what VES is anyways.
    lol.......
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Halligan84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Blackwood NJ, USA
    Posts
    816

    Default

    Your questions are really difficult to answer without really seeing what is going on and taking it all in. Wind, fire location and conditions, building construction, where the hose line is entering all play into it. Keep asking questions. In the meantime there is plenty to see on sites like youtube and on a number of the other fire blogs. In time, with training, experience and continued study you will start to match up fire conditions along with what worked and what didn't.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    thanks everyone for the answers, I will go to my station and look at some scenarios. Also I'll check out youtube. FIREguy, shut up.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    You didn't even say which floor of the 2 story the smoke was coming from. That makes a significant amount of difference. Also what kind of 2 story? 2 story of ordinary construction, that is apartments over commercial, or apartments on both floors? Is it single unit, or does the building have multiple story fronts or apartments. Is it a 2 story wood frame house? If so, is it an older colonial, split level, or newer construction? Has it been cut up into apartments? Is it a 2 story wood frame apartment building with a flat or peaked roof? Is it a Boston Double? A side by side? Are their indications the building has been further subdivided? Is it a 2 story wood frame private dwelling with a flat roof? Has this been converted to multiple apartments? I'm not even saying all the possibilities of what this "2 story" could be. Thats just what is coming to mind as I type

    The list is just as long for a 1 story.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    Thanks everyone, funny thing happened right after that post:

    Single story structure fire smoke was seen as we began driving up, as we pulled into the driveway, the center of the roof fell in and fire began showing. I got a 360 of the building and saw smoke stained windows, (a watched a video the night before that said smoke stained windows were an indiciation of bkacdraft) so I reported to the IC. Our guys went through the front door and began fighting the fire, I went to turn the utilities off or something(it's been some time now) and all of a sudden more volunteers show up and grab another line. The main attack crew came out and was covered in debris, the roof had partially collapsed on them and they got out. The second line that was pulled become a safetyy line to the people who was doing horzontal ventilation. After all that, we used some foam and even a PPV.
    It was a great answer to my question, just in a different form
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Theusje's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    Thanks everyone, funny thing happened right after that post:

    Single story structure fire smoke was seen as we began driving up, as we pulled into the driveway, the center of the roof fell in and fire began showing. I got a 360 of the building and saw smoke stained windows, (a watched a video the night before that said smoke stained windows were an indiciation of bkacdraft) so I reported to the IC. Our guys went through the front door and began fighting the fire, I went to turn the utilities off or something(it's been some time now) and all of a sudden more volunteers show up and grab another line. The main attack crew came out and was covered in debris, the roof had partially collapsed on them and they got out. The second line that was pulled become a safetyy line to the people who was doing horzontal ventilation. After all that, we used some foam and even a PPV.
    It was a great answer to my question, just in a different form
    Do you believe that your department handled this fire well?

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Post

    saaaaaaaaaa
    Last edited by 6Duron1; 06-16-2011 at 07:53 AM.
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    JohnVBFD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Norfolk, Va
    Posts
    1,479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    The only thing that was wrong was
    1st
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    I did actually like how BPFD#1 handled this.
    2nd
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    The morning started off as our captain went to get breakfast, about maybe 4 miles from station one (where the sleeping quarters are). Maybe about 10 minutes after leaving the station,
    3rd
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I set the record for donning PPE (minus SCBA since I was still a Junior) inside of a moving truck
    4th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    and begin stripping the entire engine of it's tools (a trick I learned after reading either firehouse or fire engineering: an article about RIT)
    5th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    (the other on-scene firefighter didn't have his gear,
    6th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    we only had: two ready firefighters, two medics (who ran the pumps) and three support personne
    7th (and honestly the most damning of all)
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    (LaFire showed up and became the IC,
    8th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    Then, our Assistant Chief came on scene and threw me his accountability tag and began donning an SCBA to enter the fire.
    9th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    We didn't have the big picture, so I told IC I was making a 360


    10th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    with one of the deputies
    11th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    he saw the fire fingers creeping towards them as they were entering another room and began pulling the team out of the fire just before it went over, saving his life and two others.)
    12th
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    To end the story, no one got hurt, the department dodged a flashover, saved some pictures, and also had a great response time.
    Of which, once again: 'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.
    Last edited by JohnVBFD; 06-11-2011 at 08:22 AM.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post
    Of which, once again: 'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.
    With only Junior Firefighting experience with knowledge only of that department's SOP's and SOG's, that's why I liked this fire over the other fires we've had.

    The Captain who left the station did not break department policy. He took our primary response vehicle (rescue 2) as he is the only paid person on shift anyways.

    With the PPE donning (minus SCBA), our policy is to get dressed en route to a call, reduces response times, however it wouldn't take a second longer to get dressed before we start rolling (which I've done probably about once or twice).

    What's wrong with taking all of our tools of the engine?

    The firefighter who was on scene didn't have his gear, he left it at Camp Minden (where he was heading to work)

    We only had two firefighters because everyone else was probably getting their kids off to school.

    Nothing to say about La except for: he handled it the same way our Deputy Chief did at the other fires I've been at.

    The Assistant Chief (active Shreveport Firefighter Captain/Instructor) had his gear and was able to enter the fire as soon as he got there.

    After looking back, yeah it was kind of stupid to "tell" the IC I was getting a 360, so next time that happens, I'll be sure to see if the IC needs anything else. But isn't a 360 necessary at all fires? The deputy was going around back anyways, so I thought I'd tag along with him.

    I can't say anything about the flash-over because I wasn't there. Also I'd rather not say anything about the poor excuse, it probably was; but this early in the morning (I was the only person riding out along with the 2 person medic crew), I was surprised we got that much of a response. Thanks for showing me those things John.
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    JohnVBFD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Norfolk, Va
    Posts
    1,479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    The Captain who left the station did not break department policy. He took our primary response vehicle (rescue 2) as he is the only paid person on shift anyways.
    Ok, not a big deal. However, it was BREAKFAST. I can not think of any officer I've ever worked with who got to work, and left anytime before 11am to get BREAKFAST. Left at 11 to go to the store as a unit to pick up what would be for dinner, but prior to 11 its Station duties/clean up/drill.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    With the PPE donning (minus SCBA), our policy is to get dressed en route to a call, reduces response times, however it wouldn't take a second longer to get dressed before we start rolling (which I've done probably about once or twice).
    For one by your own admission you are a JUNIOR. For two, you should be seated and belted in a moving vehicle. For three, as a JUNIOR you shouldn't need gear because you shouldn't be in a position to NEED gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    What's wrong with taking all of our tools of the engine?
    RIT/FAST operations are supposed to be RAPID. You don't need everything off the truck.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    The firefighter who was on scene didn't have his gear, he left it at Camp Minden (where he was heading to work)
    So he was a glorified spectator? What was the purpose of even showing up? Moral support?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    We only had two firefighters because everyone else was probably getting their kids off to school.
    Address this in a moment....

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    Nothing to say about La except for: he handled it the same way our Deputy Chief did at the other fires I've been at.

    The Assistant Chief (active Shreveport Firefighter Captain/Instructor) had his gear and was able to enter the fire as soon as he got there.
    So the senior people showed up, and didn't take command till later in the incident. If you are going to carry the title "Assistant Chief" and you get on-scene, you don't see fire and decide "I'm just going to be a blue shirt today". You take command as the Senior officer present. Or if you aren't, once again, don't show up.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    After looking back, yeah it was kind of stupid to "tell" the IC I was getting a 360, so next time that happens, I'll be sure to see if the IC needs anything else. But isn't a 360 necessary at all fires? The deputy was going around back anyways, so I thought I'd tag along with him.
    First a cop/sheriff/deputy is NOT a firefighter. Has no idea what they should be looking for. Second, YOU are a JUNIOR. You have no idea what you should be looking for doing. So the 360 that was conducted was conducted by two people who have no idea what they are looking for/doing. Therefore, it was not done.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    I can't say anything about the flash-over because I wasn't there. Also I'd rather not say anything about the poor excuse, it probably was; but this early in the morning (I was the only person riding out along with the 2 person medic crew), I was surprised we got that much of a response. Thanks for showing me those things John.
    I wasn't there, but I can tell you that IF it was a flashover, that means that the hose line passed the main body of fire/source of heat.

    I will say this. I don't know you from Adam. I don't know if this was a second, third, forth-hand story or if it is even real.

    However, IF it is 100% true, and this is how the Great Cowards Department actually operates, than it confirmed EVERYTHING anyone has ever said about them.

    If only TWO firefighters can be mustered, than I agree with the Chief they DO need more paid firefighters, despite the great cowards claim against it.

    If this is 100% true than the great coward had better not EVER call for a paid firefighter to lose his job after an accident if his own department is allowing JUNIORs to RIDE and DRESS OUT in a MOVING FIRE TRUCK UNBELTED.

    My advice, because it is already too late, is if this story is 100% true, you never again reference it, and never again air your dirty laundry for an entire world to see.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    10-4 sir! It won't happen again!
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Jonnee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,256

    Default

    On the OP's post No. 14 - I call BS!!

    As John from VA Beach has answered each every statement this junior has said.

    Look at the OP's profile. It says "in between departments" and he is a insurance salesman for state farm.

    In previous postings in hiring, volunteer and other threads, he us looking for a Volley Department to join. Several folks gave him a couple down and around where is indicates when he is located.

    Has he tried out for them? I don't know. Most of those Chief of Departments around that area, are associates and friends of mine.

    So I ask, are you even associated with a fire department?

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    the first post was: 12-29-2010; back when I still lived in Bossier Parish: this entire thread is about that question, which the story in Post# 14, if you read it all the way, it says:
    EDIT: This happened before I posted my question and I just remembered why I posted this: how did they know where to vent? Why did they vent the front instead of the back?
    Yes I am an insurance salesman with statefarm and I am in between departments.
    I missed the application deadline for Williamsburg which was May 15, 2011. I recently turned in an application for York County, still haven't heard anything back from them yet.
    I moved to Williamsburg because I thought I might apply at JCCFD and get a change of scenery.
    I went through the motions and wasn't hired at JCCFD, so now I'm still working at the same job I had in Louisiana.
    No I'm not associated with a fire department.
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    Theusje's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    70

    Default

    Well ... didn't know I poked a beehive. I just wanted to make a point about thinking about what we do on the fireground.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    It's not your fault, just some departments do things differently.
    As John pointed out, there were some things that could be done differently, including donning PPE before mounting the truck.
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,412

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    the first post was: 12-29-2010; back when I still lived in Bossier Parish
    That, right there.....It explains everything to me.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    RyanEMVFD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    Why? It's not like you're going to visit me! But I'm near Waco, Texas
    Posts
    2,386

    Default

    An internet forum should be last place to get information about what to do at a fire. There are books, classes, schools, seminars and in department training that should be referenced to first before coming to an internet forum. For starters, you don't know who is answering your questions, they could be someone in your position but trying to sound knowledgeable. Second, each department does things differently and then it varies greatly from region to region. Third, nothing beats on hands experience and training. Reading and actually doing are two completely different things.
    NREMT-P\ Reserve Volunteer Firefighter\Reserve Police Officer
    IACOJ Attack

    Experts built the Titanic, amateurs built the Ark.

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Automatically? Good god, please hire some officers who can set your FD back on track. Please OP, if you're for real, do not let someone just tell you the one right answer based on so little information.
    We do not automatically ventilate in any one place. That being said, we generally utilize PPV.

    In the case of the fire the OP is referring to there were no ventilation operations conducted as on arrival the fire was already self-vented through a window in the rear in the room or origin (and shortly after a second) and through the roof about 2 minutes after arrival.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Unsupportive Family Vent Thread
    By mmillner81 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-09-2010, 02:25 PM
  2. wwyd? Commercial Stove exhaust vent fire
    By dfwscotty in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 02-24-2008, 05:57 PM
  3. Positive Pressure Vent Videos
    By SWLAFireDawg in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-21-2007, 10:24 PM
  4. No Firefighter Should Ever Die Again
    By blancety in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 280
    Last Post: 07-09-2005, 11:07 AM
  5. TEMPEST VENT SAWS
    By chief462 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-25-2001, 05:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register