# Thread: How to decide How/When/Where to Vent

1. ## How to decide How/When/Where to Vent

I am a Junior Firefighter with crest, and I am just trying to figure out how/when/where to vent in these types of scenarios

Two-Story buildings:
Arrive on-scene see turbulant smoke leaving the building on the A-side through a window.
- Would you vent all the windows?
- Would you vertical ventiliate through the roof?
- Would you use PPV?

Single-Story buildings:
See smoke coming through the smoke stack when arrive on-scene and just as you enter it self-ventilates.
- Would you knock all the windows out?
- Would you Vertically vent?
- Would you horizontally vent?
- Would you use PPV?

Not trying to get insulted or anything just asking questions.

2. There are way too many variables to answer any of those questions.

3. Gain as mucj knowledge as you can about fire behavior, building construction and fire attack, and how ventilation will help or hurt the crews inside.

Use the resources at your station to study as much as you can.

4. Your scenario has too many variables to answer. Turbulent smoke means window is broken and ventilation has begun. Maybe take more windows out until team can get to roof. Another option might be not to take windows so ppv can be used.

5. It's obvious that you would automatically ventilate horizontally on the A-side and let the fire stay in that spot. Then you would throw up a ladder on the 2d story and vent the second floor windows. If you ask anyone else they would tell you to VES, but if you're a Jr in the southern area, your department probably won't know what VES is anyways.

6. As others have stated, too many variables and not enough detail to provide good answers, but I'll give you a few that I can.

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
I am a Junior Firefighter with crest, and I am just trying to figure out how/when/where to vent in these types of scenarios

Two-Story buildings:
Arrive on-scene see turbulant smoke leaving the building on the A-side through a window.
- Would you vent all the windows? By "vent" I'm assuming you mean "break" in order to provide ventilation. The answer is No, only the ones that need to be taken out will be. If the fire is only on one floor, there's a good chance that only that floor's windows need taken out. The others could probably just be opened. Additionally, taking too many windows can cause problems with fire spread.
- Would you vertical ventiliate through the roof?Typically ventilation of the roof is only effective if the fire is in the attic space and/or top floor. In my department, we rarely do verticle ventilation. In part because of manpower issues and in almost all situations we can achieve sufficient ventilation using horizontal much faster.
- Would you use PPV?Yes, but for us, not until we have control of the fire.

Single-Story buildings:
See smoke coming through the smoke stack when arrive on-scene and just as you enter it self-ventilates.Where did it self-vent from? Are you talking about a "chimney"?
- Would you knock all the windows out?Maybe? Depends a lot on size of the building and location of the fire.
- Would you Vertically vent?Again, for us, probably not.
- Would you horizontally vent?Absolutely.
- Would you use PPV?Yes and as stated above.

Not trying to get insulted or anything just asking questions.

7. Originally Posted by FIREguy2011
It's obvious that you would automatically ventilate horizontally on the A-side and let the fire stay in that spot. Then you would throw up a ladder on the 2d story and vent the second floor windows. If you ask anyone else they would tell you to VES, but if you're a Jr in the southern area, your department probably won't know what VES is anyways.
Automatically? Good god, please hire some officers who can set your FD back on track. Please OP, if you're for real, do not let someone just tell you the one right answer based on so little information.

8. Originally Posted by FIREguy2011
It's obvious that you would automatically ventilate horizontally on the A-side and let the fire stay in that spot. Then you would throw up a ladder on the 2d story and vent the second floor windows. If you ask anyone else they would tell you to VES, but if you're a Jr in the southern area, your department probably won't know what VES is anyways.
lol.......

9. Your questions are really difficult to answer without really seeing what is going on and taking it all in. Wind, fire location and conditions, building construction, where the hose line is entering all play into it. Keep asking questions. In the meantime there is plenty to see on sites like youtube and on a number of the other fire blogs. In time, with training, experience and continued study you will start to match up fire conditions along with what worked and what didn't.

10. thanks everyone for the answers, I will go to my station and look at some scenarios. Also I'll check out youtube. FIREguy, shut up.

11. You didn't even say which floor of the 2 story the smoke was coming from. That makes a significant amount of difference. Also what kind of 2 story? 2 story of ordinary construction, that is apartments over commercial, or apartments on both floors? Is it single unit, or does the building have multiple story fronts or apartments. Is it a 2 story wood frame house? If so, is it an older colonial, split level, or newer construction? Has it been cut up into apartments? Is it a 2 story wood frame apartment building with a flat or peaked roof? Is it a Boston Double? A side by side? Are their indications the building has been further subdivided? Is it a 2 story wood frame private dwelling with a flat roof? Has this been converted to multiple apartments? I'm not even saying all the possibilities of what this "2 story" could be. Thats just what is coming to mind as I type

The list is just as long for a 1 story.

12. Thanks everyone, funny thing happened right after that post:

Single story structure fire smoke was seen as we began driving up, as we pulled into the driveway, the center of the roof fell in and fire began showing. I got a 360 of the building and saw smoke stained windows, (a watched a video the night before that said smoke stained windows were an indiciation of bkacdraft) so I reported to the IC. Our guys went through the front door and began fighting the fire, I went to turn the utilities off or something(it's been some time now) and all of a sudden more volunteers show up and grab another line. The main attack crew came out and was covered in debris, the roof had partially collapsed on them and they got out. The second line that was pulled become a safetyy line to the people who was doing horzontal ventilation. After all that, we used some foam and even a PPV.
It was a great answer to my question, just in a different form

13. Originally Posted by 6Duron1
Thanks everyone, funny thing happened right after that post:

Single story structure fire smoke was seen as we began driving up, as we pulled into the driveway, the center of the roof fell in and fire began showing. I got a 360 of the building and saw smoke stained windows, (a watched a video the night before that said smoke stained windows were an indiciation of bkacdraft) so I reported to the IC. Our guys went through the front door and began fighting the fire, I went to turn the utilities off or something(it's been some time now) and all of a sudden more volunteers show up and grab another line. The main attack crew came out and was covered in debris, the roof had partially collapsed on them and they got out. The second line that was pulled become a safetyy line to the people who was doing horzontal ventilation. After all that, we used some foam and even a PPV.
It was a great answer to my question, just in a different form
Do you believe that your department handled this fire well?

14. saaaaaaaaaa

15. Originally Posted by 6Duron1
The only thing that was wrong was
1st
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
I did actually like how BPFD#1 handled this.
2nd
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
The morning started off as our captain went to get breakfast, about maybe 4 miles from station one (where the sleeping quarters are). Maybe about 10 minutes after leaving the station,
3rd
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
I'm pretty sure that I set the record for donning PPE (minus SCBA since I was still a Junior) inside of a moving truck
4th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
and begin stripping the entire engine of it's tools (a trick I learned after reading either firehouse or fire engineering: an article about RIT)
5th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
(the other on-scene firefighter didn't have his gear,
6th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
we only had: two ready firefighters, two medics (who ran the pumps) and three support personne
7th (and honestly the most damning of all)
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
(LaFire showed up and became the IC,
8th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
Then, our Assistant Chief came on scene and threw me his accountability tag and began donning an SCBA to enter the fire.
9th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
We didn't have the big picture, so I told IC I was making a 360

10th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
with one of the deputies
11th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
he saw the fire fingers creeping towards them as they were entering another room and began pulling the team out of the fire just before it went over, saving his life and two others.)
12th
Originally Posted by 6Duron1
To end the story, no one got hurt, the department dodged a flashover, saved some pictures, and also had a great response time.
Of which, once again: 'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

16. Originally Posted by JohnVBFD
Of which, once again: 'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.
With only Junior Firefighting experience with knowledge only of that department's SOP's and SOG's, that's why I liked this fire over the other fires we've had.

The Captain who left the station did not break department policy. He took our primary response vehicle (rescue 2) as he is the only paid person on shift anyways.

With the PPE donning (minus SCBA), our policy is to get dressed en route to a call, reduces response times, however it wouldn't take a second longer to get dressed before we start rolling (which I've done probably about once or twice).

What's wrong with taking all of our tools of the engine?

The firefighter who was on scene didn't have his gear, he left it at Camp Minden (where he was heading to work)

We only had two firefighters because everyone else was probably getting their kids off to school.

Nothing to say about La except for: he handled it the same way our Deputy Chief did at the other fires I've been at.

The Assistant Chief (active Shreveport Firefighter Captain/Instructor) had his gear and was able to enter the fire as soon as he got there.

After looking back, yeah it was kind of stupid to "tell" the IC I was getting a 360, so next time that happens, I'll be sure to see if the IC needs anything else. But isn't a 360 necessary at all fires? The deputy was going around back anyways, so I thought I'd tag along with him.

I can't say anything about the flash-over because I wasn't there. Also I'd rather not say anything about the poor excuse, it probably was; but this early in the morning (I was the only person riding out along with the 2 person medic crew), I was surprised we got that much of a response. Thanks for showing me those things John.

17. Originally Posted by 6Duron1
The Captain who left the station did not break department policy. He took our primary response vehicle (rescue 2) as he is the only paid person on shift anyways.
Ok, not a big deal. However, it was BREAKFAST. I can not think of any officer I've ever worked with who got to work, and left anytime before 11am to get BREAKFAST. Left at 11 to go to the store as a unit to pick up what would be for dinner, but prior to 11 its Station duties/clean up/drill.

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
With the PPE donning (minus SCBA), our policy is to get dressed en route to a call, reduces response times, however it wouldn't take a second longer to get dressed before we start rolling (which I've done probably about once or twice).
For one by your own admission you are a JUNIOR. For two, you should be seated and belted in a moving vehicle. For three, as a JUNIOR you shouldn't need gear because you shouldn't be in a position to NEED gear.

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
What's wrong with taking all of our tools of the engine?
RIT/FAST operations are supposed to be RAPID. You don't need everything off the truck.

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
The firefighter who was on scene didn't have his gear, he left it at Camp Minden (where he was heading to work)
So he was a glorified spectator? What was the purpose of even showing up? Moral support?

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
We only had two firefighters because everyone else was probably getting their kids off to school.

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
Nothing to say about La except for: he handled it the same way our Deputy Chief did at the other fires I've been at.

The Assistant Chief (active Shreveport Firefighter Captain/Instructor) had his gear and was able to enter the fire as soon as he got there.
So the senior people showed up, and didn't take command till later in the incident. If you are going to carry the title "Assistant Chief" and you get on-scene, you don't see fire and decide "I'm just going to be a blue shirt today". You take command as the Senior officer present. Or if you aren't, once again, don't show up.

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
After looking back, yeah it was kind of stupid to "tell" the IC I was getting a 360, so next time that happens, I'll be sure to see if the IC needs anything else. But isn't a 360 necessary at all fires? The deputy was going around back anyways, so I thought I'd tag along with him.
First a cop/sheriff/deputy is NOT a firefighter. Has no idea what they should be looking for. Second, YOU are a JUNIOR. You have no idea what you should be looking for doing. So the 360 that was conducted was conducted by two people who have no idea what they are looking for/doing. Therefore, it was not done.

Originally Posted by 6Duron1
I can't say anything about the flash-over because I wasn't there. Also I'd rather not say anything about the poor excuse, it probably was; but this early in the morning (I was the only person riding out along with the 2 person medic crew), I was surprised we got that much of a response. Thanks for showing me those things John.
I wasn't there, but I can tell you that IF it was a flashover, that means that the hose line passed the main body of fire/source of heat.

I will say this. I don't know you from Adam. I don't know if this was a second, third, forth-hand story or if it is even real.

However, IF it is 100% true, and this is how the Great Cowards Department actually operates, than it confirmed EVERYTHING anyone has ever said about them.

If only TWO firefighters can be mustered, than I agree with the Chief they DO need more paid firefighters, despite the great cowards claim against it.

If this is 100% true than the great coward had better not EVER call for a paid firefighter to lose his job after an accident if his own department is allowing JUNIORs to RIDE and DRESS OUT in a MOVING FIRE TRUCK UNBELTED.

My advice, because it is already too late, is if this story is 100% true, you never again reference it, and never again air your dirty laundry for an entire world to see.

18. 10-4 sir! It won't happen again!

19. On the OP's post No. 14 - I call BS!!

As John from VA Beach has answered each every statement this junior has said.

Look at the OP's profile. It says "in between departments" and he is a insurance salesman for state farm.

In previous postings in hiring, volunteer and other threads, he us looking for a Volley Department to join. Several folks gave him a couple down and around where is indicates when he is located.

Has he tried out for them? I don't know. Most of those Chief of Departments around that area, are associates and friends of mine.

So I ask, are you even associated with a fire department?

20. the first post was: 12-29-2010; back when I still lived in Bossier Parish: this entire thread is about that question, which the story in Post# 14, if you read it all the way, it says:
EDIT: This happened before I posted my question and I just remembered why I posted this: how did they know where to vent? Why did they vent the front instead of the back?
Yes I am an insurance salesman with statefarm and I am in between departments.
I missed the application deadline for Williamsburg which was May 15, 2011. I recently turned in an application for York County, still haven't heard anything back from them yet.
I moved to Williamsburg because I thought I might apply at JCCFD and get a change of scenery.
I went through the motions and wasn't hired at JCCFD, so now I'm still working at the same job I had in Louisiana.
No I'm not associated with a fire department.

21. Well ... didn't know I poked a beehive. I just wanted to make a point about thinking about what we do on the fireground.

22. It's not your fault, just some departments do things differently.
As John pointed out, there were some things that could be done differently, including donning PPE before mounting the truck.

23. Originally Posted by 6Duron1
the first post was: 12-29-2010; back when I still lived in Bossier Parish
That, right there.....It explains everything to me.

24. An internet forum should be last place to get information about what to do at a fire. There are books, classes, schools, seminars and in department training that should be referenced to first before coming to an internet forum. For starters, you don't know who is answering your questions, they could be someone in your position but trying to sound knowledgeable. Second, each department does things differently and then it varies greatly from region to region. Third, nothing beats on hands experience and training. Reading and actually doing are two completely different things.

25. Originally Posted by RFDACM02
Automatically? Good god, please hire some officers who can set your FD back on track. Please OP, if you're for real, do not let someone just tell you the one right answer based on so little information.
We do not automatically ventilate in any one place. That being said, we generally utilize PPV.

In the case of the fire the OP is referring to there were no ventilation operations conducted as on arrival the fire was already self-vented through a window in the rear in the room or origin (and shortly after a second) and through the roof about 2 minutes after arrival.

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