1. #1
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    Default AFG APPARATUS GRANT HELP (age of fleet)

    I have a question. We are thinking about maybe trying for a truck grant with AFG. Do they go by avg apparatus fleet age or just the newest? Either way how old do they start giving you serious consideration? We have a 67' 2 1/2 military brush truck, a 68' 5 ton military 2,000 tanker, and a 84' telequirt 1250 pump 500 gallon tank,"ladder" truck. We don't have a offical pumper alone we use the telequirt as our main apparatus to all calls but wildland. We have about 25 calls a year with automatic aid calls included in that. Probably 12 structures a yr due to the auto aid with 4 other fire departments. Would we have much of a chance to ask for a use pumper in the $40,000 to $50,000 range. we can't afford a new one lol even at 5%. Or would it be better to maybe get a pumper tanker and replace the tanker? would that increase our odds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    I have a question. We are thinking about maybe trying for a truck grant with AFG. Do they go by avg apparatus fleet age or just the newest? Either way how old do they start giving you serious consideration? We have a 67' 2 1/2 military brush truck, a 68' 5 ton military 2,000 tanker, and a 84' telequirt 1250 pump 500 gallon tank,"ladder" truck. We don't have a offical pumper alone we use the telequirt as our main apparatus to all calls but wildland. We have about 25 calls a year with automatic aid calls included in that. Probably 12 structures a yr due to the auto aid with 4 other fire departments. Would we have much of a chance to ask for a use pumper in the $40,000 to $50,000 range. we can't afford a new one lol even at 5%. Or would it be better to maybe get a pumper tanker and replace the tanker? would that increase our odds?
    Your fleet age is plenty old enough to ask for a new truck. Your newest truck is 26 yo
    If It was me , I would go for a new Pumper /tanker and get rid of the 5 ton as an unsafe 42 yo military vehicle conversion, not designed as a fire service vehicle. Tanker safety is a very visible factor as many fatal crashes involve tanker rollovers.

    If you based the costs on 250k your share would be $ 12,500.
    It would give you a new safe NFPA compliant pumper/tanker and you have at least a year to hold a special fund raising drive to cover your share of $12,500.

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    Ok cool We out anual budget is usually about $8,000 next year becuase of cuts were looking at only about $6,000 so unless we could get a loan for the $12,500 over like 10 yrs a new truck is our of the question lol. I will say after looking at the age of our apparatus in yrs not just the yr they were built wow we have a old fleet lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    Ok cool We out anual budget is usually about $8,000 next year becuase of cuts were looking at only about $6,000 so unless we could get a loan for the $12,500 over like 10 yrs a new truck is our of the question lol. I will say after looking at the age of our apparatus in yrs not just the yr they were built wow we have a old fleet lol.
    Your department sounds alot like ours. I too went through the question of which apparatus to ask for. Many of the gurus suggested I go new. When I approached my village board for assistance with our cash match, they informed me that they did not want me to apply for a new truck because the insurance was going to be too much for them to handle.

    A refurb unit might also be a way to consider. If you call volume is low, AFG computer AND peer review are getting harder to convince no matter how old your fleet is. Your not going to get away with the lowest allowable participation which I am guessing you fall into the 5% range. Your going to have to reach the 20% percent range no matter if your go refurb or new. Now I was informed that the stimulus actually would allow you to apply for 15% of the balance of the overall amount after your participation which makes you reach the 20% overall. I believed that no other grant could be combined with the AFG. I was wrong. However the Stimulus funds to your state might be about to run out.

    I am wishing you all the luck with a new vehicle acquisition.

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    Back to the first question, it will ask both. What is the newest in each category, what is the oldest, and what is the overall average for your fleet.

    You definitely have a good case, but there are so many good cases out there that you will still have an uphill battle. I would agree with the idea of proposing elimination of the old 5-ton.

    Good luck! Smart to get the ducks in a row now, by the way.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
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    Check out www.govdeals.com for used apparatus. Go to the section for fire apparatus. Might find some ideas and pricing to help you there. Eliminating two truck would make grant stronger. As for the insurance cost, I would point your city fathers in the direction of costs associated with a accident and the detriment to you members family and lively hood. Make them cry and they will be more receptive to the federal help Good luck
    Last edited by hoserbt; 01-02-2011 at 07:48 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    Ok cool We out anual budget is usually about $8,000 next year becuase of cuts were looking at only about $6,000 so unless we could get a loan for the $12,500 over like 10 yrs a new truck is our of the question lol. I will say after looking at the age of our apparatus in yrs not just the yr they were built wow we have a old fleet lol.
    Many good suggestions here, most all valid as well. Let me add my two cents worth on this subject.

    One thing about going for a used piece of apparatus is that you are never sure that "the price" will be the same ( as when you are checking out the prices to ask for in the application) and you have an "availability factor" ( will it still be available during the usual 8-12 months it can take to even know that you have recieved an award?). Bear in mind that "Cost benefit" can be lost here due to the age of a used piece of apparatus. In other words, if the life expectancy of the truck is only 20 years and you buy one that is 10 years old already, your cost benefit has to be based on a 10 year service life vs a 20 year service life. Additonally you have to factor that a used truck will usually require more maintenance costs during that final 10 years, all of which leads to an actual lower cost benefit that a new vehicle.

    Keep in mind that if you can win an award where the govt is footing 80% of the initial purchase cost of the truck, you in essence have an 80% equity stake in that truck and equity translates to "credit worthiness" in terms of seeking a long term low interest loan to cover your matching requirement.

    Your geographic location appears to me to be rural in nature so don't forget to go talk to the regional USDA office about a Rural Facilities Grant which will pay for apparatus. This is a partial grant ( which does not have to be repaid and will range from 15-35% of total project cost) coupled with a long term low interest loan. Last I checked, that interest amount was in the 4-5% neighborhood and on a truck could be extended for 10-15 years.

    Your best tool you can gain right now is to "educate yourself and administration" to the AFG grants process; knowledge is power! Although you did not mention it, you also have an opportunity to avail yourselves of the Ops and Safety side of the AFG and I would be willing to bet that money is being needlessly squandered in your department by paying for things that AFG would cover and then that money could be used to make payments or foot the extra 15% local matching dollars. There is a strategy to grants when used properly. Just ask jam24u or hoserbt regarding the value of educating yourself and governing boards to understanding this program correctly and utilizing it fully to your advantage.

    We are all here to help! Just ask.
    Last edited by ktb9780; 01-02-2011 at 09:44 AM.
    Kurt Bradley
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    The problem with buying a used vehicle from
    Gov deals or any other site is that you are getting someone else's retired problem and there is no warrantee or guarantee that the truck will even function as intended. If the truck is so good why is it being sold?
    Yes there are occasional great deals out there from depts that have wealthy budgets and get new trucks every ten years, but the economy is making it harder to find these "DEALS".

    AFG is well aware of this and is cautious of funding for used apparatus.

    As Kurt said above: Ask your insurance agents which has a higher risk qualifier to insure. A new apparatus or a 42 yo converted Ex-military 5 ton. Which is more likely to suffer a catastrophic failure and cause injury or death?

    To me it's a no brainer and an easy sell to the governing body. You just need to educate them on how accepting tax dollars back to your community can be a good thing.

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    I seen a few times on different threads you guys mentioning (call volume) My question is how to they determine what classifies high volume and low volume? My company avg. is 190 , 210. Per year
    Go STEELERS !!!! 230 Chief

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    Kurt thanks again for your imput it's always good help. I have very familar with the Ops and Safety side of AFG. I have gotten 5 out of 5 ops grants I have applied for. But this would be the first time we have considered a vehicle grant. I near buy fire department we have auto aid with just recieved a $65,000 AFG for a used pumper. So that got it thinking maybe we could also. Insurnace is not really a issue for us as the county pays for most of it. We just looking at all option to continue to improve and build our small fire department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    Kurt thanks again for your imput it's always good help. I have very familar with the Ops and Safety side of AFG. I have gotten 5 out of 5 ops grants I have applied for. But this would be the first time we have considered a vehicle grant. I near buy fire department we have auto aid with just recieved a $65,000 AFG for a used pumper. So that got it thinking maybe we could also. Insurnace is not really a issue for us as the county pays for most of it. We just looking at all option to continue to improve and build our small fire department.
    No problem, just wanted to make sure you were hitting on all 8 cylinders! Congrats, 5 for 5 is an awesome and enviable record.
    Kurt Bradley
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    Every time I thought of something I wanted to post here, the same great information had already been posted by someone else! So much great help here these days!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    Probably 12 structures a yr due to the auto aid with 4 other fire departments.
    I believe you can only count your district structure fires, not automatic aid calls.

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    There is a spot at the bottom of the call volumn page that askes for automatic and mutal aid call volumn. Plus you can use it in your narritive to explain how being awarded the grant will help other departments beyond just the fire department asking for the grant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    There is a spot at the bottom of the call volumn page that askes for automatic and mutal aid call volumn. Plus you can use it in your narritive to explain how being awarded the grant will help other departments beyond just the fire department asking for the grant.

    You are right - I just have seen some people try to claim the auto aid structures at the top of the page as their own, and also list them at the bottom.

    The narrative part helps if you make it past the computer.

    Good luck - we seem to do OK on the vehicle grants, the FP&S, and SAFER, but suck on the operations side.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 01-05-2011 at 01:59 AM.

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    Were just the opposite, I have done great on the ops side but no luck with Safer, and this is the first year for vehicle and FP&S

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