Thread: 360

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    Default 360

    How many of you do a 360 size up at every fire? When do you and when do you not? Do you do a walk around when fire is venting from the alpha divison?
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    Depends on riding assignment. If we have the tiller and 4, I ride in the Irons position. So typically I will get the side we approach from and the alpha side, but I am more concerned with forcing entry if required for the hose line and finding the fire (self venting or not, self venting doesn't always indicate the seat of the fire). If we are on the rear mount reserve piece, I ride in the OV position and yes, I do a complete 360 even after the officer. When doing this from this riding position, I am looking for any additional hazards, indications of failure, signs of people trapped (ie- possibly a hand print on a smoke stained window) while shutting off utilities and looking to place any required emergency egress ladders.

    If I am on an engine, no I don't do any 360 as I am normally pulling hose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNFF319 View Post
    How many of you do a 360 size up at every fire? When do you and when do you not? Do you do a walk around when fire is venting from the alpha divison?
    I'll preface this as being written from the point of view of the person riding officer:

    I'd hate to say every fire, but as a matter of routine fireground tactics, yes. In fact, at work, it's one of the benchmarks we're now required to give to communications. In the case that the occupancy is too large for me to do a 360 (commercial/mercantile), I'll direct one of the engine companies to go to the rear and complete whatever size up that I'm not able to, and then relay that information to me via radio.

    Yes, I'll still do a 360 even if fire is showing the from the Alpha division. While the crews are stretching the line to Alpha, I can complete a quick 360, giving me an idea of the amount of involvement, possible flashover conditions, occupants trapped, etc. Doesn't take long, and generally when I make my way back to the Alpha, the line is just getting ready to go in the front door.
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    The first in engine officer is required to do a 360 unless a Chief as arrived first.

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    It is hard to make yourself do it at every fire, but any time I have been in the situation where this would be my responsiblity (or someone else's who just doesn't give a sh*t) I make sure it is done.

    In one instance I arrived on scene (alone) in the first arriving engine with fire venting from a second story A side window. There was a police officer already there and I had him do a quick 360 after telling him what I was looking for. Was it perfect? Probably not. But it let me know that what I was seeing was the only visible fire, no one was hanging out the back windows and the rear walls and roof hadn't collapsed. In the mean time I finished getting dressed, stretched and charged a line and was ready to meet to next arriving officer at the front door.

    I wouldn;t hesitate to do it again in the same situation givin the officer was a competant individual.
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    We make sure it's done every fire, typically by someone on the first-in unit. Most of the time the first-in truck will pull past, giving them a view of three sides as they arrive. All it takes is a quick walk to the back while the crew is pulling the attack lines, irons, and fan to complete it.

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    Our officers try to do it at every fire, unless the building is too large or there is no access. Some of the neighborhoods are full of houses that have been cut up into multiple occupancies. Its not uncommon to need to use a door in the back of the house to get to a fire that's blowing out the second story on the A side.

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    usually not even physically possible.
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    Yes, unless I KNOW that the Chief or higher ranking officer is right behind me or has arrived first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    usually not even physically possible.
    I'll go with generally not done..
    These homes, along with a mix of other types, can run corner to corner in many areas.
    They also could be all 3-story or 4-story. If you go around the block all you'll see is the front of other buildings that probably have nothing to do with the original fire call.
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    Volunteer dept. and I seldom think about this, but I guess we are blessed. Always have a chief and a duty officer assigned & 99.5% of the time they arrive B-4 the engine. First arriving officer is required to do a 360 while 2nd arriving gets dressed. 360 makes his report to 2nd arriving who takes command. Has been working here for 40+ years with very little conflict.

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    Always make a 360 of any incident I am IC of, including most of the smaller brush fires. It's simply not possible on the larger ones.

    Most of the ICs follow the same policy on both combo and volunteer department.

    It may take a few minutes, bit it needs to be done.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-08-2011 at 12:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Always make a 360 of any incident I am IC of, including most of the smaller brush fires. It's simply not possible on the larger ones.

    Most of the ICs follow the same policy on both combo and volunteer department.

    It may take a few minutes, bit it needs to be done.
    no it doesnt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Always make a 360 of any incident I am IC of, including most of the smaller brush fires. It's simply not possible on the larger ones.

    Most of the ICs follow the same policy on both combo and volunteer department.

    It may take a few minutes, bit it needs to be done.
    you can't even estimate how much line you need in a street stretch when given 20 minutes to figure it out in another thread, how would you know anything about being an IC?

    and if you knew what a ladder was, and taught your ff's how to use them, I'd educate you another part of the job which is utilized in "sizing up". but unfortunately, truck work doesn't exist in your world either.
    Last edited by tny1771; 01-07-2011 at 06:00 PM.

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    IMO, whenever possible it needs to be done. Obviously the structure involved can preclude it, but if it can be done, it should be done.

    LODD's can be prevented by getting a look at the rear, Colerain Township ring any bells?

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    It is another useful tool but not always indicated or practical. But a prudent IC can always have a rig shag the alley, or in some other way or means, provide a size up of what parts of the building not visible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    IMO, whenever possible it needs to be done. Obviously the structure involved can preclude it, but if it can be done, it should be done.

    LODD's can be prevented by getting a look at the rear, Colerain Township ring any bells?
    It doesnt need to be the IC....in fact you could make a legitimate argument that it shouldnt be in some cases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    no it doesnt.
    Really?

    So as IC you don't need to make a complete assessment of the scene?

    Please tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    It doesnt need to be the IC....in fact you could make a legitimate argument that it shouldnt be in some cases.
    Possibly in your operation where there are multiple companies each with an officer, and in the case of a working incident multiple BCs and likely a DC. We as a rule don't have that many officers on-scene.

    If I am IC on my combo department, that means there are no Chiefs and no Captains, at least not on-scene. There may or may not be another Senior Firefighter on-scene to assist me with my assessment.

    If I am IC on my volunteer department, again if I'm IC, there are likely no Chiefs or captains on-scene, and there may or may not be a junior LT. Again, I will likely want to conduct my own assessment of the scene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    It doesnt need to be the IC....in fact you could make a legitimate argument that it shouldnt be in some cases.
    Agree 100% that it doesn't need to be the IC, I didn't intend to give that impression.

    Here it's usually the first-in company officer, or someone he trusts enough to do it for him. It doesn't always have to be a 360 either. If you get a look at 3 sides as you approach, then you can go through the yard and get a quick look at the rear.
    Last edited by sfd1992; 01-07-2011 at 08:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    So as IC you don't need to make a complete assessment of the scene?

    Please tell.
    nice try. you're bending it out of context. but, even so, the answer is still no.

    the operative word is can't always. And as a matter of fact; yes, that would actually mean you don't always need to do a 360 as an IC. Reasons and obvious hints were given to you as to why. You're getting responses based upon the absolutes that you gave (you're usual M/O). The same ones that come from you're "rigid play-book", as you've said you prefer.

    You tell others not to judge your way, because each persons area is different, but then turn around and challenge others about what should be done, as you are right now.

    Back to your quoted question above, as an educator, are you actually going to say that you need that explained?

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    If you have people in the position to be running crews, at minimum, they should have the ability to finish the 360 and report noted conditions to the IC. IF not, you shouldn't be on firehouse forums posting. You need to be training your people.
    Besides, I would much rather have the IC seated and paying attention to what is going on and radio traffic, not trying to hike around a city block.
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    Talking

    get ready for a 60 page LA essay....

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    Agree 100% that it doesn't need to be the IC, I didn't intend to give that impression.

    Here it's usually the first-in company officer, or someone he trusts enough to do it for him. It doesn't always have to be a 360 either. If you get a look at 3 sides as you approach, then you can go through the yard and get a quick look at the rear.
    Wouldn't that be a 360?

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    I am trying to get my Dept. to make a 360 a requirement. We have very few commercial structures that would make a 360 hard to perform.
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