1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4

    Angry Is this stupid or what?!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwPUmYlYACM

    No skills learned other than climbing a ladder and performing a leg lock, both of which can be taught in a more safe manner.

    It seems like it's mainly tradition and used to building confidence in the 6 or so people that are on the ground holding the ladder.

    What do you think?

    And...would you do it?

    It seems like an accident waiting to happen.
    Last edited by Engine5Rescue2; 01-16-2011 at 03:31 PM. Reason: Added last line.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    It's a team building exercise. Dalton did it when I went through the recruit academy and to my knowledge they still do it. It's safe as long as there are instructors standing by that are watching what is going on and making sure that the students are doing exactly as instructed. So no, not stupid. It builds confidence in not only the firefighter's abilities in climbing a ladder, but also their confidence in their fellow recruits. But anything larger than a 24-26 foot extention ladder is not safe, just my $0.02 worth.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    27

    Default

    ah....OP, we operate on ladders in the fire service. whether its a 24, a 35 or a 100 ft stick, ect... did this make you queezy or something? I have the feeling some ladder confidence may be in order for you and I have the perfect solution!......


    THE ABOVE VIDEO


    Obviously the angle of the ladder will not be this steep in the real world, but this is not a fire scene, it's training. More than enough checks and balances seem to be on the ground to make the ladder secure. If you think that a ff going up that angle is dangerous, you sound like a nancy amateur to me. IT work is always available for you sally.

  4. #4
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,348

    Default

    Been there, done it. Yes, the chances of ever having to do it in the real world are pretty damn slim, but as a confidence tool, it can't be beat.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    But anything larger than a 24-26 foot extention ladder is not safe, just my $0.02 worth.
    I could see doing it with a smaller ladder like that. However, the ladder used in the video is 45 feet. I will say that I have talked with a couple of Dallas firefighters and they have said that there has never been an incident with somebody falling.

    Sure, it's a team building/confidence exercise and heck, I'd be scared out of my pants to do it. But...if a good portion (if not majority) of other fire departments are not doing it and they are able to maintain a sense of confidence in other fellow firefighters...why do it?

    And yes, pipeman, I'd be scared to do it. I think anybody would be scared to climb a 45 foot extension ladder and a 90 degree angle with no harness.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    but as a confidence tool, it can't be beat.
    I'd have to agree 100%.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Astoria, NY
    Posts
    74

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Engine5Rescue2 View Post
    And yes, pipeman, I'd be scared to do it. I think anybody would be scared to climb a 45 foot extension ladder and a 90 degree angle with no harness.
    where do these people come from?

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Maybe saying "anybody" would be a stretch...maybe nervous at least. Having a sense of fear is important to survive in this field.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Church raise.

    It's an exercise we conduct once a year with our 35' ladder for those rare occasions when it may be required, however, it is more of team building and officer-building exercise than a practical fireground operation.

    It's along the same lines of some urban departments still requiring rookies completing a Pompier Ladder evolution as a confidence building exercise to graduate rookie school, even though many of them no longer carry the ladders on the apparatus.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BULL321's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Western, NC
    Posts
    3,432

    Default

    This ladder raise came in handy when we used to assist the 1st Baptist Church change out light bulbs their main sanctuary, but other than that it not that useful. With that being said, I see no problems making your cadets perform this climb. It shows that they have guts and that they can trust their crew and officers to get the job done. If they want to be a ff bad enough then they will complete the climb or seek happiness elsewhere.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Engine5Rescue2 View Post
    No skills learned other than climbing a ladder and performing a leg lock, both of which can be taught in a more safe manner.
    It's called a "Church Raise" for a reason and it teaches key skills aside from the raise itself; chief among them is teamwork and confidence.

    And...would you do it?
    Did it in FFI class many moons ago. Back then we also carried each other out of windows and down ladders, too.

    It seems like an accident waiting to happen.
    A lot of what we do in this job is an accident waiting to happen. The point is to do it safely and not have one.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,085

    Default

    When you are jumping a fence , do you aim for just an inch over it ? No you aim for as high as you can -- same with some of the old school training - train for "worst case" -the average will be a cinch.
    ?

  13. #13
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,740

    Post Well...........

    I'm waiting for the O.P. to meet Mr. Pompier's Ladder...........


    Train for the worst case??..... Absolutely! I never took a Class in how to make the 4th floor Balcony of a Garden Apartment building by using a Roof ladder for a Pompier, but the one time in my career where it was the only option, 3 of us pulled it off.........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    It is mandatory to do the church/auditorium climb at the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy Recruit class.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    Lol at people expecting others to be scared of the same things as them even when rookies do it on the daily.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    pasobuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Loverly upstate NY
    Posts
    1,734

    Default

    ahh...memories! Yes, we did this in my Essentials class way back when...team building and confidence building exercise.....

    And yes, I was one who climbed up and over the ladder - think it was @ a 35 footer.....then again, I'll climb a 100' stick and hang out up there all day swaying in the breeze......

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I'm waiting for the O.P. to meet Mr. Pompier's Ladder...........
    Last edited by Acklan; 01-16-2011 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Meet Mr Pompier

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,346

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I'm waiting for the O.P. to meet Mr. Pompier's Ladder...........
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQKHc6xgk5o
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    Hi. You're incredibly late. Thanks for trying!
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1

    Default

    i think the fire service is being taken over by weenies, laders are to dangerous our burn rooms vent at 200 degres maby we should quit using hose they might rupture and that is to dangerous, defensive fire with bucket brigades and arff gear that might be safe o but we should walk b/c our truck might turn over...........

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffbam24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,482

    Default

    More pads could be used at the bottom. Aren't there usually double the amount of pads for even half the height for a pole vault? IMO if something were to happen, those in place aren't going to do much good. Plus some kind of belay system could be rigged up.

    Today's litigious society will not hesitate to seek punitive damages if something were to happen. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't.

    Keep using the "Church Raise" with Bangor Ladders as a "Team Building Exercise". Just use some extra precautions these days to CYA.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ffbam24 View Post
    More pads could be used at the bottom. Aren't there usually double the amount of pads for even half the height for a pole vault? IMO if something were to happen, those in place aren't going to do much good. Plus some kind of belay system could be rigged up.

    Today's litigious society will not hesitate to seek punitive damages if something were to happen. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't.

    Keep using the "Church Raise" with Bangor Ladders as a "Team Building Exercise". Just use some extra precautions these days to CYA.
    So... should we be placing padding at the base of every ground ladder we throw? How about putting giant air bags in the drop zone of our Ladder trucks?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Engine5Rescue2 View Post
    Sure, it's a team building/confidence exercise and heck, I'd be scared out of my pants to do it. But...if a good portion (if not majority) of other fire departments are not doing it and they are able to maintain a sense of confidence in other fellow firefighters...why do it?
    So if a lot of other departments aren't making guys climb their 75-100+ foot aerials at an 85 degree angelthen why do that either? Because it builds confidence. You don't like it, we get it, that's why you don't need to be operating anywhere near a truck. Stay on the engine. But to call it stupid, well, that kinda makes you look..............

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ffbam24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    So... should we be placing padding at the base of every ground ladder we throw? How about putting giant air bags in the drop zone of our Ladder trucks?
    I LIKE it!
    I am just saying in this specific instance of training; yes. What is in place doesn't appear to be sufficient. I'm only saying that whatever department is doing this, may be opening themselves up to a lawsuit if god forbid, someone is injured in this training. Pucker factor and trust are still in place with a couple extra safety precautions taken.

    Don't try to project this opinion to operations.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    389

    Default

    I agree, stupid - those pads aren't gonna do much. We used to do it with a 50' Bangor ladder, on pavement with no pads. Looks like the original video is in a nice soft field. Disappointed (and kinda glad) I didn't get a chance to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Those ladders are for wussies. See attached for a real pompier ladder. Or this:


    Really something to read some of the old citations that talk about making rescues from one of these several stories up.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Sick & Tired of Stupid Names! How About You?
    By rmoore in forum University of Extrication
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 02-13-2011, 10:43 AM
  2. Stupid People need signs.
    By FlyingKiwi in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-11-2005, 09:49 PM
  3. Stupid Is as Stupid Does
    By fireflyer in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 01-10-2003, 01:17 PM
  4. STUPID....STUPID.....STUPID
    By FireDiver111 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-22-2001, 06:34 AM
  5. I just hate stupid people, don't you?
    By smokeater-n-hellraiser in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 03-10-2001, 01:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register